A real Disney Strong Female Character

[Magnus Grendel 11,679]

3 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

Leia as a whole, at least in my mind, is far more competent than Luke and Han.

Agreed. As a leader and organiser, definitely. Luke, after all, is exactly the same age (admittedly deliberately in a sheltered life) but comparing him to leia at the start of the film - she's a rebel commander who back-talks Grand Moff Tarkin and stands up to Vader's interrogation. He's just..such a dweeb...

[Ambaryerno 399]

31 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Pocahontas had more accuracy. 

...

How the **** did you manage to say that with a straight face?

[Marinealver 8,073]

Just now, Ambaryerno said:

...

How the **** did you manage to say that with a straight face?

 

[FTS Gecko 24,135]

5 hours ago, Ambaryerno said:

That sounds familiar...

As for Anakin, yeah, a lot of the stuff he did DID get a pass because A) it's Baby Vader, (see how people defend Vader Down for how ridiculously over the top he is compared to the OT. Vader is the Batman of the Star Wars Universe) and B) those Space Parasites are used to handwave and justify it. The main thing people targeted Anakin for when I saw it was for Jake Lloyd giving a horrible and "it would be GENEROUS to call it annoying" performance.

So if Anakin and Luke get a pass for their Space Parasites, then Rey should, too.

...which cycles us neatly right back to

10 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

Nope.  Luke failed at pretty much everything before he overcome in Episode VI.

Luke was slapped down by Tusken Raiders and rescued by Ben; slapped down in the Cantina and rescued by Ben; rescued by R2 on the Death Star; rescued by Wedge, then Han in the attack on the Death Star; rescued by Han on Hoth after getting mauled by a Wampa; giving up at his Jedi training to try and rescue his friends (where he gets slapped down by Vader and rescued by Lando); falls into Jabba's trap; endangers his friends lives and mission by his mere presence; almost turns to the Dark Side beating up his old man and finally is slapped down by the Emperor before being rescue by his old man.

That is what's known as a hero's journey - facing adversity, overcoming it, making mistakes and learning from them to overcome the odds at the end of the day.

Rey doesn't have a hero's journey.  What she has is a Mary Poppins journey, being practically perfect in every way from day zero.

Seriously, trying to draw parallels between Luke and Rey is asking to be laughed out of the room.  The similarities end on all but the most superficial level (desert planet and costume).

There's a reason why Luke remains a timeless, beloved figure in cinematography and Rey is a shallow, frustrating and divisive shell of a character that the fanbase struggles to connect with.  There's a reason why people were more excited to see Mark Hamill in The Last Jedi than they were Daisy Ridley.

Jyn Urso and Qi'ra are stronger, better developed and more realistic female characters than Rey.

Edited July 23, 2018 by FTS Gecko

[Sekac 3,506]

1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

Jyn Urso and Qi'ra are stronger, better developed and more realistic female characters than Rey.

What? 

Jyn Urso's dating profile would include: 

Dislikes

People who consider, but then decide not to kill my father. 

Likes

Organizations who DO kill my father. 

Her character isn't "developed" at all. She holds one opinion of the rebellion through acts 1 and 2, then does a complete 180 and decides she needs to save the rebellion who just blew up her dad for no other reason, as far as I can tell, than "act 3 just started and it's time to flip."

I like Rogue One overall, but Jyn is an awful character. 

[Lace Jetstreamer 240]

18 minutes ago, Sekac said:

I like Rogue One overall, but Jyn is an awful character. 

I dislike Rogue One overall.  The plot is nonsensical.  There are too many inconsistencies and plot holes.  The movie is boring.  I agree Jyn is an awful character because her behaviour is inconsistent as you have pointed out.  I tend to think R1 was killed by Kathleen Kennedy ordering a complete rewrite and reshoot of the movie.  Just like she did with Soyo.  There probably WAS a good movie or at least a passable movie somewhere in the old script, but we will never see that.

[Animewarsdude 3,639]

1 hour ago, Sekac said:

What? 

Jyn Urso's dating profile would include: 

Dislikes

People who consider, but then decide not to kill my father. 

Likes

Organizations who DO kill my father. 

Her character isn't "developed" at all. She holds one opinion of the rebellion through acts 1 and 2, then does a complete 180 and decides she needs to save the rebellion who just blew up her dad for no other reason, as far as I can tell, than "act 3 just started and it's time to flip."

I like Rogue One overall, but Jyn is an awful character. 

It doesn't help that she isn't an active protagonist either, she is literally dragged around through the film until she does her 180. I like the film, especially the 3rd act but she is likely one of the weakest characters in the film after Bohdi. 

[Lace Jetstreamer 240]

18 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

It doesn't help that she isn't an active protagonist either, she is literally dragged around through the film until she does her 180. I like the film, especially the 3rd act but she is likely one of the weakest characters in the film after Bohdi. 

https://ytcropper.com/cropped/GC5b56828cf1a57

[Sekac 3,506]

2 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

https://ytcropper.com/cropped/GC5b56828cf1a57

Sigh. I'm not even gonna watch that one. It is nowhere near one of the worst movies ever. I didn't like it at first but it's grown on me. 

Move along. 

[Animewarsdude 3,639]

1 hour ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

https://ytcropper.com/cropped/GC5b56828cf1a57

Rogue One does have its issues, but it did have likable characters, mostly good additions of ships to the franchise and was overall fun. I remember walking out of the theater and after that third act I don't think there was anyone who was disappointed, everyone seemed to be a buzz of excitement. 

[Lace Jetstreamer 240]

43 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Sigh. I'm not even gonna watch that one. It is nowhere near one of the worst movies ever. I didn't like it at first but it's grown on me. 

Move along. 

Its a 13 second clip from the video which I think is very funny.  You can certainly move along yourself.

[Lace Jetstreamer 240]

16 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

Rogue One does have its issues, but it did have likable characters, mostly good additions of ships to the franchise and was overall fun. I remember walking out of the theater and after that third act I don't think there was anyone who was disappointed, everyone seemed to be a buzz of excitement. 

I of course didn't go to the theatre to watch.  Instead I watched it at home.  It took a few sessions to get through the movie as I was totally bored throughout.  If it wasn't a star wars movie, we would have abandoned the movie half way through that is how uninteresting it was.

But everyone has their own experiences watching movies.  I can say that I really enjoyed Episodes 4 & 5.  6 was always a bit dumb to me especially because of the ewokes.  Episodes 1,2,3 were train wrecks for me where I didn't even care about episode 3 when it came out.  The 2003 Clone Wars anime renewed my interest in Star Wars and was pretty much the only 'saving grace' of the original trilogy in my opinion.  The computer animation of the 2009 clone wars series put me off and doesn't seem to hold up compared to more modern 3d animation.  I have heard the story is good only if you watch it in a specific order but I can't be bothered to do that now.

I enjoyed Rebels which is the only content from Disney SW that I liked.

[Animewarsdude 3,639]

23 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

I of course didn't go to the theatre to watch.  Instead I watched it at home.  It took a few sessions to get through the movie as I was totally bored throughout.  If it wasn't a star wars movie, we would have abandoned the movie half way through that is how uninteresting it was.

But everyone has their own experiences watching movies.  I can say that I really enjoyed Episodes 4 & 5.  6 was always a bit dumb to me especially because of the ewokes.  Episodes 1,2,3 were train wrecks for me where I didn't even care about episode 3 when it came out.  The 2003 Clone Wars anime renewed my interest in Star Wars and was pretty much the only 'saving grace' of the original trilogy in my opinion.  The computer animation of the 2009 clone wars series put me off and doesn't seem to hold up compared to more modern 3d animation.  I have heard the story is good only if you watch it in a specific order but I can't be bothered to do that now.

I enjoyed Rebels which is the only content from Disney SW that I liked.

Arguably the books and comics that came out as part of the Clone Wars Multimedia project were far stronger than the 2003 Clone Wars, like a whole lot stronger. As for not liking the 2009 one based off the art, you get used to it, and that is like saying that Toy Story doesn't hold up, doesn't change the fact it is still a great film. Clone Wars (CG) in my mind was far stronger than Rebels and I actually liked the fact the show was a bit of an anthology show that could tell other stories in the arcs as they did with later seasons. And the animation does get better with Clone Wars too, I think they ended up redoing a number of models around season 4 or 5. There are some filler episodes there, and pretty much anything centering on Jar jar is meh but there are some good arcs with the clones, Ventruss, Ahsoka, and a whole lot more. Plus, it introduces one of the best bounty hunters out there, in my mind, Cad Bane. 

[Lace Jetstreamer 240]

3 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

Arguably the books and comics that came out as part of the Clone Wars Multimedia project were far stronger than the 2003 Clone Wars

I didn't have any interest in reading about star wars content thanks to the prequals.  The last books I read about star wars were the x-wing series novels.  So in terms of comic books and novels for that era, I have no point of reference.  It was my opinion when the 2003 clone wars mini-series came out that it was MUCH better than the movies.  I enjoyed it but still wasn't interested nor invested enough in star wars to care.

8 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

As for not liking the 2009 one based off the art, you get used to it, and that is like saying that Toy Story doesn't hold up, doesn't change the fact it is still a great film. 

Toy story was amazing when it came out regarding its CG.  The 2009 clone wars CG wasn't visual appealing even when it was initially released.  There is a big difference between the two examples.  I had little interest back then to watch it due to its visuals especially when the 2003 anime inspired art was far superior and still holds up today.  On top of that, the episodes are out of order and cause confusion when watching as a series.  

12 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

Clone Wars (CG) in my mind was far stronger than Rebels and I actually liked the fact the show was a bit of an anthology show that could tell other stories in the arcs as they did with later seasons.

I think the CG in rebels is better than the clone wars 2009.  I am guessing you like the story better in clone wars 2009?

[Animewarsdude 3,639]

13 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Toy story was amazing when it came out regarding its CG.  The 2009 clone wars CG wasn't visual appealing even when it was initially released.  There is a big difference between the two examples.  I had little interest back then to watch it due to its visuals especially when the 2003 anime inspired art was far superior and still holds up today.  On top of that, the episodes are out of order and cause confusion when watching as a series.  

Toy Story was, but looking at it nowdays the human characters are nightmare fuel territory. The Clone Wars show doesn't look horrible, and CG shows always suffer from assets and limited budget, Rebels suffers from the same thing especially whenever there is a group shot of civilians or why we always see the Imperials using the Sentinel Shuttle instead of the Lambda. The 2003 show wasn't inspired by anime so much as it was a Genndy Tartakovsky show, aka the guy who made Dexter's Lab, and Samurai Jack, and spent the past while working on the Hotel Transylvania movies. 

As for the order that is all on Lucas since he wanted to tell stories before certain ones when season 2 and 3 came around. It can be confusing but a quick google search can clear it up, and mostly the episodes are all contained in little arcs so unlike Rebels where it is generally pushing the season story forward, which in general was the first two episodes being important then lots of filler and character stuff before dealing with the main plot with the later episodes. Clone Wars arcs are more focused which I think works a bit better, besides there is the announcer guy at the beginning to bring you up to speed on the important plot points for the episode itself. 

23 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

I think the CG in rebels is better than the clone wars 2009.  I am guessing you like the story better in clone wars 2009?

Yes, I liked the story better. Part of it is that Clone Wars reaches some really good high points, it has a fair few low ones too but has some real strong stuff there. Rebels is shorter and mixed bag in my opinion, the first season is sort of meh until we get to the point when Tarkin shows up, the second season was rather enjoyable save for some episodes like the Lasat one, Season three really enjoys a good overall run too, and Season four dropped with a rather weak intro with the Mandalore plot, suffered from too much focus on the wolves, was not a fan of the time travel bit, and the WHALES deus ex machina to beat the Empire. I get that Ezra was well connected with animals but that was just not quite my preference. 

Clone Wars by its nature of being part anthology means that you can generally cut out low points with little issue while for Rebels you have to slog through them for the most part. 

[Magnus Grendel 11,679]

4 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

6 was always a bit dumb to me especially because of the ewokes.

There's a rumour that in one of the original drafts the ewoks were wookies - given that the empire used slave labour and the wookies (in the person of the only one we'd seen, Chewbacca) were technically competent despite the fur and general primitive appearance, building the second death star above Kashyyk would have made sense.

Liberating Kashyyk would have been a nice end point for chewie's character in the original trilogy (Han & Leia get each other, Luke redeems his father, Lando gets his heroic redemption, chewie gets.....dinner? I guess? Seriously, he should at least have got the medal they didn't give him the first time....) , and a bunch of really angry wookies taking apart a stormtrooper legion makes rather more sense.

[FTS Gecko 24,135]

10 hours ago, Sekac said:

What?

I like Rogue One overall, but Jyn is an awful character. 

You'll notice I didn't actually say that Jyn and Qi'ra were particularly good or well written characters.

Just that they are stronger, better developed and more realistic female characters than Rey.

Which is true, and shows just how utterly godawful the writing has been for the sequels, and Rey in particular.

[Sekac 3,506]

2 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

You'll notice I didn't actually say that Jyn and Qi'ra were particularly good or well written characters.

Just that they are stronger, better developed and more realistic female characters than Rey.

Which is true, and shows just how utterly godawful the writing has been for the sequels, and Rey in particular.

It doesn't show anything. It's just a thing you said.

Rey is developed. You may not like the process or the character, but they do develope her. She begins by wanting to help Finn, but then get back to Jakku to wait for her parents. Over the course of 2 movies she's learned that her past holds nothing for her and that her destiny lies ahead.

Jyn is one character for most of the movie, and then a different character as soon as the movie needed her to be.

She's not realistic either because her motivations are imperceptible. She can't be related to because nobody changes from being uninterested in something to willing to die for it just because she suddenly felt like it.

Rey is at least influenced by external forces.

I can't really argue stronger individually because that's kind of based on the first 2 points. If a character is more realistic and better developed, then they are necessarily the better character. 

You might not like Rey or relate to her, but at least her behavior is consistent within the character, and when it changes, there is a clear reason why. That's better character work.

[BlodVargarna 4,041]

23 hours ago, Ambaryerno said:

Combine that with the fact Kylo had a HOLE BLASTED IN HIS SIDE by a weapon that hurls armored stormtroopers through the air like ragdolls.

So there's DEFINITELY a different standard Rey is being held to than male characters.

Another important point people forget about the first Rey/Kylo duel is that Kylo didn’t want to kill her. 

[Red Castle 3,875]

My personnal opinion is that Rey is one of the best developped character in the Star Wars movies. Her conflicts are internal, not external. Her story, and character development, is about trying to find (and accept) her place in all this, not about trying to become a hero.

Rey has been abandonned by her parents on a remote planet. She needs to scavenge to survive and can rely on no one but herself. She is left alone with no purpose but to survive. But for what? To live another day on a desert planet with hardly enough food? So she hang on to a thought to continue to live: That her parents will return. Hanging to the wishful thinking that she has not simply been abandonned, that they'll be back for her. She created a purpose to her life. It also help her to deny the truth that her parents didn't care for her. And just how much did they not care about her to leave her alone in those conditions, alone in the 'care' of Unkar. So deep down, we know that Rey has an abandonment issue and self doubt about herself (she perceive herself as a nobody). Given the conditions of living on Jakku, it would be easy to turn into an egoist person, only thinking about herself, about her own survival. But when she meets BB-8 for the first time, we see that she is a caring person and, even if it is reluctently at first, willing to help. That she can relate to BB-8 might have helped, alone and lost on this desert planet. So she decides to help him find his master back (just like she would love if someone could help her find her parents back), first by bringing him to Niima Outpost, and then, because of the circumstances, to the Resistance base. But still, she always think aout getting back to Jakku as soon as possible, to wait for her parents return, because they couldn't just be cruel parents that simply abandonned her on a desert planet, they will come back to get her. Certainly she is worth it, or is she?

Then we get to the scene with Anakin lightsaber in Maz Castle. The first calling. The call to adventure, to be the next hero. And how does she react? She refuses it, afraid of it. She doesn't think she's worth it. Deep down, she's just a nobody from nowhere, she's not a hero, she's not good enough. So she runs away. Somebody else is more worthy. She is no Luke Skywalker. We see in this scene how Rey is broken inside. The Force is calling to her to be the next beacon of Hope and because of her self doubt, she refuses it, she's not ready for it. But the Force has been awaken in her, as chosen her, she now has to accept it. And by the end of the movie, she finally did, to be able to defeat Kylo Ren. But now, she has to find her place in all this. She still thinks she's a nobody from nowhere, but now she has all this power growing inside of her. Why her? Is she really worth it?

And then we move into The Last Jedi, where she continue to try to find her place, accept her new powers, and finally gets to put her past behind and move on. During all the movie, she try to pass the mantle to someone else. She simply can't accept that her, a nobody, could be the Resistance hope. She first try to get Luke back, and then think that turning Ben is the answer, that since Luke won't come back, he is the last hope of the Resistance. She still doesn't see herself as a hero, as the savior. And then after the Throne room scene, when she learns, although deep down she already knew, when she finally accept, that her parents are nobodies that abandonned her, that her destiny lies elsewhere than with her parents legacy, she is left with two choices: Join Ben to rule the galaxy, or become the hero that will confront him. She choose the second option. She finally accept her role as the protagonist. And now we have one last movie to see how her story will end. But already, with two movies, she is far from being where she was when we first met her.

Rey's journey is an internal one and, from my point of view, those are the best character developpments we can have.

[Red Castle 3,875]

1 hour ago, BlodVargarna said:

Another important point people forget about the first Rey/Kylo duel is that Kylo didn’t want to kill her. 

Also, people tends to forget how the duel actually happen. For the most part, until the end when the Force awake in her, she runs away and is on the defensive. She is in no way in control of the fight. Kylo dominate her. 

 

[Sekac 3,506]

2 hours ago, Red Castle said:

Also, people tends to forget how the duel actually happen. For the most part, until the end when the Force awake in her, she runs away and is on the defensive. She is in no way in control of the fight. Kylo dominate her. 

And people forget (or choose to ignore) that Kylo's training was incomplete according to Snoke. He was powerful, but not fully trained.

[Lace Jetstreamer 240]

5 hours ago, Red Castle said:

My personnal opinion is that Rey is one of the best developped character in the Star Wars movies. Her conflicts are internal, not external. Her story, and character development, is about trying to find (and accept) her place in all this, not about trying to become a hero.

https://www.nownovel.com/blog/difference-external-internal-conflict-writing/

Quote

Accomplished authors use both external and internal conflict to give their characters serious obstacles to reaching their goals.

So we can just stop there.  Please have a read and then maybe you would like to revise your argument.

As for Mulan (the main subject of this thread), her story has BOTH internal and external conflict.  At the start of the movie, she sings the song 'Reflections' which is a very STRONG internal conflict.  It happens at the start of the movie.  Mulan is conflicted of being a 'good' and obedient traditional Chinese women vs her wanting to be creative and self sufficient.  There are many external conflicts in her story, if you are interested we can discuss.  The point I am making is with 'good' internal conflict.

What internal conflict do we see Rey have at the start of Ep 7? ... Crickets ... none.

What internal conflict do we see with Luke in Ep 4 (when we are introduced to him)?  His desire to explore the galaxy verses his responsibility to his family.  Just as a reference for internal conflict.  We can get into Luke's external conflict if you like.

The stuff that Red Castle typed is his own interpretation of Rey.  Its not actually what we see on the screen.  A good movie shows you the conflict not leaving it up to the audience to guess how a character might be feeling.  

Edited July 24, 2018 by Lace Jetstreamer

[Animewarsdude 3,639]

1 hour ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

https://www.nownovel.com/blog/difference-external-internal-conflict-writing/

So we can just stop there.  Please have a read and then maybe you would like to revise your argument.

As for Mulan (the main subject of this thread), her story has BOTH internal and external conflict.  At the start of the movie, she sings the song 'Reflections' which is a very STRONG internal conflict.  It happens at the start of the movie.  Mulan is conflicted of being a 'good' and obedient traditional Chinese women vs her wanting to be creative and self sufficient.  There are many external conflicts in her story, if you are interested we can discuss.  The point I am making is with 'good' internal conflict.

What internal conflict do we see Rey have at the start of Ep 7? ... Crickets ... none.

What internal conflict do we see with Luke in Ep 4 (when we are introduced to him)?  His desire to explore the galaxy verses his responsibility to his family.  Just as a reference for internal conflict.  We can get into Luke's external conflict if you like.

The stuff that Red Castle typed is his own interpretation of Rey.  Its not actually what we see on the screen.  A good movie shows you the conflict not leaving it up to the audience to guess how a character might be feeling.  

Red Castle has also noted that he has read the novelizations of TFA, and I believe TLJ so that might add further context for him, especially considering chapter were likely from Rey's perspective and could more show that internal conflict with her having monologues and the like. Her conflict may be there, it might not but context can change how we view things,for example in ANH Han's line about making the Kessel Run in 12 Parsecs and Obi-Wan's response hinted towards it being a case of Han just saying crap to sound more impressive; whereas years after the film we have the EU and New Canon giving explanations for the line to give Han a feat. 

For me personally, I feel the film should carry its weight and show what it needs to rather than relying on other mediums to make it a whole product that conveys what they wanted.

[Vapor Eagle 41]

1 hour ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

https://www.nownovel.com/blog/difference-external-internal-conflict-writing/

So we can just stop there.  Please have a read and then maybe you would like to revise your argument.

 

An authoritative source indeed!

That aside, if you watched VII and thought Rey had no internal conflict then you were not paying attention. If you thought everything Red Castle wrote was invented whole cloth (or pulled from the novels) then you were not paying attention. Quite a bit of that was in the film as text, not subtext. Claiming otherwise is factually incorrect. Not liking it? Thinking it was poorly done? Sure, your preferences are your own. Claiming elements were absent from the film? Nope. You don't get a pass on that.