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Viktus106

Uthuk - Kethra or Ravos?

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Pretty happy with the current "core" of my list (i.e everything but the hero) but was wondering what the consensus was about swapping out the mean machine Ravos for the force multiplier Kethra:

The List:
Berserkers
3 x 2
No upgrades

Flesh Rippers
2 x 2
Dead Sprint

Flesh Rippers
2 x 2 
Dead Sprint

Spined Threshers
2 x 1
Scuttling Horror

Ravos The Ever Wounding Mean Machine
Insatiable Hunger

List: 195 points

So what do the heroes bring in this list:

Ravos:
Auto wounds (Unique Surge and End Phase) which helps deal with Death Knights, Siege Golums and generally all armor 3 and up heroes. I think this is clutch in that Uthuk don't have the tools to deal with these threats outside of Ravos. Plus, having the entire army panic at the start is nice. Simple to use, point at a HVT and smash him home. He will generally win most engagements. 

Kethra:
Unnatural Growths push up the Flesh Rippers damage output nicely. Two white dice, mortal wound as an action, armor 4 with Kings (5 if you armor up) and you have a decent hero but i'm not really sure what she would be hunting. Heartseeker and Bonecaster seem like a nice (expensive) combo to add some range game to an otherwise melee only faction but I think the Kings wins out. Problem is, you need to be engaged with units to see the best of it, so again, what do you hunt with her? Additionally, she is the only Uthuk that doesn't have a double march, meaning she is the slowest unit I would be fielding which doesn't sit well with the melee option. 

So I guess what I am trying to say is. . . is it worth swapping out Ravos for Kethra at the moment or is Ravos too much of a meta pick right now? Does the damage boost to the Flesh Rippers offset the raw damage that Ravos brings to the table?

(On another note, why doesn't Thu'uk Tar have Brutal? Ravos, Kethra do!)

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It sounds like you have your answer. Ravos is a solid hero and I think Kethra has a hard time overthrowing him. I think it would be different, perhaps, if you built a new list that started with Kethra. If you are worried about high-defense units, Kethra does not seem to be the ideal choice. She needs to hunt enemy infantry units. Additionally, Unnatural Growths will just deflect off anything with a defense of 3 or higher, so punching through armor is difficult. On the bright side, it trggers befor the 2-defense units can get their +1 defense bonus action. That'll at least take out an Oathsworn Cavalry figure when it attacks.

Kethra does have some wounding abilities that bypass armor, though - her skill. That skill does not require her to be in range or line of sight of the ally that explodes bone, so she can safely stay at range while triggering that ability. That will deal 0-2 wounds, so it could be a gamble but will be great against Death Knights and Rune Golems.

Looking at your list, I just don't think Kethra fits. I think her figure upgrade is decent for Berserkers, but you need two more points for that. If you could fit it in, it could be great because you have so many units that can shrug off the wound. The problem is sacrificing the Berserkers' hit modifier. 

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Caveat: Ive not proxied Kethra. I’m waiting on the actual release. 

 

Kingsbane Kethra seems most effective as an infantry and Leonx killer. She will only be okay against Death Knights, Hawthorne, and Golems. If you bring her you still probably need an efficient armor buster. Her skill won’t proc as much as she will need her modifiers more in melee.

 

Bonecaster Kethra could bust armor, sort of. The lack of any way to modify the roll for her skill makes it haphazard. There isn’t so bad of an opportunity cost on using that skill with her. 

 

 

Edited by Church14

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Thanks for the feedback. 

I think, given the current unit choices, this is a Ravos list .

What would you do with the remaining five points, if anything? The bid is quite decent I have found but then I haven't messed about with any Command units yet. 

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1 hour ago, Viktus106 said:

Thanks for the feedback. 

I think, given the current unit choices, this is a Ravos list .

What would you do with the remaining five points, if anything? The bid is quite decent I have found but then I haven't messed about with any Command units yet. 

Yeah. Unfortunately, until Uthuk get another reliable armor buster (Kethra could be, I may be wrong), Ravos or a DeathStar unit that just puts out massive damage are the only options to take on armor.  

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Gonna go against the group here...  Been playing against Bone Caster Kethra since December.  She busts armor just fine.  Not quite as quickly as Ravos, but with more flexibility.  What she does is allow things like flesh rippers to deal with threats they would normally fall to by blowing them up and dealing direct wounds to the units around them.  I've seen a flesh ripper unit run into range of an Ardus, Deathnights, and a Carrion Lancer only to have Kethra do a wound to all three safely from across the board.  Also pretty good to shoot at I3 with brutal/precise and mortal on the dial.  This can consistently deal 2 wounds to even 4 armor units, and again, she will have an easier time picking targets than Ravos will.

Additionally, you note the value of unnatural growths... it's actually even better than you think it is.  You decide who gets it AFTER deployment.  This means you will be able to greatly improve the matchups you see developing from deployment.  Things with low armor, especially wraiths, hate this condition.  Even if your opponent plays around it, it means they did not deploy optimally and have to spend a round or two maneuvering to avoid the unnatural growths targets.  This is exactly what a fast list wants.

Obviously Ravos is super good, and you will likely have success with him.  But I think Kethra is actually better in that list with all the flesh ripper targets for her skill.  Your opponent likely will not have anywhere to hide his armor units from being blown up.

 

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10 minutes ago, QuickWhit said:

Gonna go against the group here...  Been playing against Bone Caster Kethra since December.  She busts armor just fine.  Not quite as quickly as Ravos, but with more flexibility.  What she does is allow things like flesh rippers to deal with threats they would normally fall to by blowing them up and dealing direct wounds to the units around them.  I've seen a flesh ripper unit run into range of an Ardus, Deathnights, and a Carrion Lancer only to have Kethra do a wound to all three safely from across the board.  Also pretty good to shoot at I3 with brutal/precise and mortal on the dial.  This can consistently deal 2 wounds to even 4 armor units, and again, she will have an easier time picking targets than Ravos will.

Additionally, you note the value of unnatural growths... it's actually even better than you think it is.  You decide who gets it AFTER deployment.  This means you will be able to greatly improve the matchups you see developing from deployment.  Things with low armor, especially wraiths, hate this condition.  Even if your opponent plays around it, it means they did not deploy optimally and have to spend a round or two maneuvering to avoid the unnatural growths targets.  This is exactly what a fast list wants.

Obviously Ravos is super good, and you will likely have success with him.  But I think Kethra is actually better in that list with all the flesh ripper targets for her skill.  Your opponent likely will not have anywhere to hide his armor units from being blown up.

 

Glad to hear she is coming up mustard because I like the model and what she represents. I'll certainly be picking her up. 

What have you been running her with? I assume Bonethrower from the way you mentioned range?



 

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Just now, Viktus106 said:

Glad to hear she is coming up mustard because I like the model and what she represents. I'll certainly be picking her up. 

What have you been running her with? I assume Bonethrower from the way you mentioned range?



 

Usually just with bonecaster.  It makes her excellent with the rush style of the Uthuk because she does not have to complete keep up and she will wreck blockers like CL's and Scions.  I've had her one shot both of those with good rolling.

I've had a few opponents run her with Fortuna's as well, but seems unnecessary to me considering white dice are pretty consistent and she has precise.  Though it did help him snipe out a deathcaller once saving Kethra's life so...

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14 minutes ago, QuickWhit said:

Usually just with bonecaster.  It makes her excellent with the rush style of the Uthuk because she does not have to complete keep up and she will wreck blockers like CL's and Scions.  I've had her one shot both of those with good rolling.

I've had a few opponents run her with Fortuna's as well, but seems unnecessary to me considering white dice are pretty consistent and she has precise.  Though it did help him snipe out a deathcaller once saving Kethra's life so...

Have you tested out dragonjaw focus with her?

It seems the casting from range kit well but might not be super consistent. 

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36 minutes ago, Panzerninja said:

Have you tested out dragonjaw focus with her?

It seems the casting from range kit well but might not be super consistent. 

I have not seen it run on her. Seems logical that it would be good.  It may also be inconsistent though and you may want the 5 points elsewhere.  If you run it let me know how it goes.

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On 7/19/2018 at 5:05 AM, Viktus106 said:

On another note, why doesn't Thu'uk Tar have Brutal? Ravos, Kethra do!

I see him as more of a technical hero, rather than a power hero. His power advantage comes from his range-1 melee attack. For Beastmaster Th'Uk Tar, his ability to cause units to reform could have a huge impact on the game. For example, he can prevent or setup a flank charge. He also gets redeployment shenanigans. For Th'uk Tar and Gorgemaw, they have the Scout keyword like the Outland Scouts in addition to more maneuverability by increasing the speed of marches by 1 and giving all shifts the option to turn. They are going to be able to get around the battlefield to either pick up objective tokens or get flank attacks. I plan to use Th'uk Tar even if he doesn't have brutal 1.

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I'm actually quite pleased that we are in a position, as a faction, that we can build a core list, be happy with it and then just swap out the hero for a different play style. 

I'll be picking up Kethra, for sure as well a Thu'uk ( i have his alt art already, just need the model now. . ) and possibly two boxes of Viper and one box of Obscene but I don't think I will be changing much. 

Maybe i'll try a non-unique list if the Obscene can push damage Ravos style. 

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I've already got the expansions out, I too will be getting Kethra, Thu'uk, two boxes of viper and a box of obscene. I was doing Waiqar and Uthuk together, but I HAVE to cut back on cost. lol So Uthuk only and maybe once I'm really happy with my Uthuk I'll shore up some boxes of Waiqar stuff.

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Just now, Curlycross said:

Kethra's surge ability 1 surge = 2 damage. That gets multiplied by brutal, doesn't it? Since it is damage and not lethal? So two double surges is 4x2= 8 damage, brutal = 16 hits?

Nope! The ability reads "Suffers 2 damage". The defender suffers that damage in the step, so the damage doesnt get added to the damage pool which is built by multiplying hits by threat, then you add lethal.

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On 7/20/2018 at 7:26 AM, Budgernaut said:

 

On 7/19/2018 at 5:05 AM, Viktus106 said:

On another note, why doesn't Thu'uk Tar have Brutal? Ravos, Kethra do!

I see him as more of a technical hero, rather than a power hero. His power advantage comes from his range-1 melee attack. For Beastmaster Th'Uk Tar, his ability to cause units to reform could have a huge impact on the game. For example, he can prevent or setup a flank charge. He also gets redeployment shenanigans. For Th'uk Tar and Gorgemaw, they have the Scout keyword like the Outland Scouts in addition to more maneuverability by increasing the speed of marches by 1 and giving all shifts the option to turn. They are going to be able to get around the battlefield to either pick up objective tokens or get flank attacks. I plan to use Th'uk Tar even if he doesn't have brutal 1.

 

By convention, I’m gonna use Thuk’tar or Beastmaster to refer to the human only models and upgrades. I’m gonna use Gorgemaw for any where they are together. 

 

To expand on Budgernaut and try to answer viktus:

I think Beastmaster is part of the next bit of strategy that Uthuk get. They currently have:

-Morale shenanigans

-facepunch faster than your opponent 

-The Ynfaernal Rule: Do unto yourself that which you wish to do harder unto others. (Self harm for bonus)

 

They seem to be gaining:

- Mess with your and your opponents position

 

This new strategy doesn’t rely on massive damage. It relies on dictating the terms of the fight to prevent incoming damage. Beastmaster and Obscenes won’t out Damage Ravos and Threshers in a MathWars. Beastmaster having brutal would mean that not only does he help with that strategy, but he would also be capable of standing and fighting. I think the designers don’t want this newest Uthuk batch to be particularly good at that. 

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On 7/25/2018 at 9:07 AM, Panzerninja said:

You know, I don't think we have asked the real question until now:

Image result for why not both

 

 

That gets to be a substantial # of points tied up in two units. But I dunno, I might accept that challenge ?

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Hmm how about : 

Kethra Alaak [34] 1x1
Dragonjaw Focus [5]
Bonecaster [8]
Total Unit Cost: 47

Ravos the Everhungry [40] 1x1
Viscera Goblet [7]
Insatiable Hunger [3]
Total Unit Cost: 50

Berserkers [16] 2x1
Corruption Rune [4]
Bloodrage Conduit [4]
Total Unit Cost: 24

Berserkers [27] 2x2
Blood Diviner [3]
Corruption Rune [4]
Bloodrage Conduit [4]
Total Unit Cost: 38

Berserkers [16] 2x1
Bloodrage Conduit [4]
Total Unit Cost: 20

Berserkers [16] 2x1
Bloodrage Conduit [4]
Total Unit Cost: 20

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