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Outsiders - Phoenix Fiction

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1 hour ago, Mangod said:

And that's assuming that the elemental imbalance can be blamed squarely on a signle issue, rather than a combination of Djinn, dwindling virtue, the Shadowlands stirring, heretical sects springing up among the heimin, and Kami knows what else.

I'm fairly certain at this point the Elemental Imbalance issue is incorrectly being attributed to a bunch of unrelated stuff, which is why it's so confusing for the Isawa to figure out. 

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2 minutes ago, phillos said:

I'm fairly certain at this point the Elemental Imbalance issue is incorrectly being attributed to a bunch of unrelated stuff, which is why it's so confusing for the Isawa to figure out. 

QFT.

After all.... even in this story, the djinn is really more of a symptom of a wider problem. What is it doing there blatantly throwing down? Why that shrine? Was it trapped in a talisman only to be released by someone or something? It headed back toward Unicorn lands, but those lands aren't seeing the same problems at all.

And I've got a shiny copper penny that says meishodo is actually the solution to troublesome djinn...

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Oh, and you know what ELSE the Unicorn brought back from the Burning Sands?

 

My absolute least-favorite villainous faction in the old lore, who would benefit from a breakdown in traditional Rokugani spirituality, and would have zero compunctions about siccing djinn on kami to stir up trouble.

 

As long as we're talking red herrings, figure I'll throw one of my own into the pond...

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19 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Oh, and you know what ELSE the Unicorn brought back from the Burning Sands?

 

My absolute least-favorite villainous faction in the old lore, who would benefit from a breakdown in traditional Rokugani spirituality, and would have zero compunctions about siccing djinn on kami to stir up trouble.

 

As long as we're talking red herrings, figure I'll throw one of my own into the pond...

I fail to see what the Shi-Tien Yen-Wang have got to do with this. *whistles*

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2 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

... Man, when a Unicorn calls the Lords of Death a villainous faction...

Well, they're certainly a less savory group of deities than the Seven Fortunes, that's for certain.

Joking aside, the Kolat (I'm assuming they're who you're referring too) are an interesting idea, and they make a certain degree of sense... but they feel like a less well executed version of the Gozoku, to be honest.

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8 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Oh, I loathe the Kolat on a conceptual level and really hope my sneaking suspicion is wrong, but...

What about the concept is it that you find so objectionable, if you don't mind me asking?

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1 hour ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Oh, I loathe the Kolat on a conceptual level and really hope my sneaking suspicion is wrong, but...

I mean, conceptually aren't they all about freeing humanity from a regressive social system imposed on them by alien beings who took their advanced capabilities as proof that humans were lesser and should serve them? Whose family squabble threatens all of existence?

 

Of course, the Kolat in practice seemed to have very little in common with that concept.

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So, this story shows they are willing to make major breaks with the old canon so it got me thinking... what if instead of the self-fulfilling prophecy that drove Shojo to the Scorpion Clan Coup, and the Clan War, we get the Phoenix visions misinterpreted leading to the Clan War scenario? Consider, they distrust meishodo and think it's to blame for the elemental imbalance; their pride won't allow them to consider they might be wrong and won't even take the advice of the Unicorn, who know about djinn and are better equiped to deal with the menace. This leads to a major catastrophe. It doesn't need a Phoenix Clan Coup, but they are convinced they know better, perform a ritual and... the Imperial Palace blows up in flames, severing the Hantei line, or some similar scenario.

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Well, I think it would be good to learn what are the djinn, and what the Unicorn think the djinn are?

 

Like.... ponies might think djinn are just kami of the burning sands, like kami in Rokugan, so they brought them along via meishodo. Djinn might be different, as in old lore, or they might not. 

 

It's interesting here that it's mentioned that the djinn was retreating back to Unicorn lands, but still got into a fight with the water kami... it might just have been looking for shelter perhaps? It is possible a unicorn died on the trail, his meishodo got broken, and the djinn escaped, and tried to go back home?

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12 hours ago, Kaito Kikaze said:

And after this fiction, I do believe there are some genuinely good ones in the bunch.

I like the implication that you didn't think there were any good Unicorn before now.

9 hours ago, Mangod said:

Joking aside, the Kolat (I'm assuming they're who you're referring too) are an interesting idea, and they make a certain degree of sense... but they feel like a less well executed version of the Gozoku, to be honest.

The Kolat are an august society of enlightened philosophers who have been looking after humanity's best interests for centuries.

The Gozoku were a bunch of corrupt politicians whose petty ambitions and amateurish scheming didn't even last beyond a single generation.

8 hours ago, Waywardpaladin said:

Of course, the Kolat in practice seemed to have very little in common with that concept.

Probably because the majority of writing on them occurred after a significant portion of them decided that with the Hantei Dynasty gone and the protege of one of their most revered leaders on the throne the could focus on accumulating money and political influence rather than pursue the more esoteric, metaphysical goals of the organization.

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23 minutes ago, shineyorkboy said:

The Kolat are an august society of enlightened philosophers who have been looking after humanity's best interests for centuries.

The Gozoku were a bunch of corrupt politicians whose petty ambitions and amateurish scheming didn't even last beyond a single generation.

Probably because the majority of writing on them occurred after a significant portion of them decided that with the Hantei Dynasty gone and the protege of one of their most revered leaders on the throne the could focus on accumulating money and political influence rather than pursue the more esoteric, metaphysical goals of the organization.

The Kolat are a glorified yakuza who have been looking after their moneymaking schemes for centuries.

The Gozoku was an elightened group of philosophers and philanthropists who placed the good of the Empire above the Imperial bloodline. ;)

I do actually like the idea of the Kolat as a philosophy about the pursuit of mortal self-rule in opposition to the tyranny of the Kami... but in execution they never felt like more than an absurdly resilient crime syndicate.

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Meishodo is a foreign vice, like this bizarre practice of touching someone's hand to greet them. While that unseemly gesture is merely embarassing, however, foreign sorcery is actually dangerous. Treating with the Kami is not some game. The esteemed Phoenix developed a systematic intellectual tradition, tested and proven over the course of time immemorial, and that should be more than good enough for serious, not to say sane, minds. Tinkering with what one doesn't understand and with which one has no business involving oneself is at best the product of juvenile impulses that need to be restrained by responsible adults.

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42 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Meishodo is a foreign vice, like this bizarre practice of touching someone's hand to greet them. While that unseemly gesture is merely embarassing, however, foreign sorcery is actually dangerous. Treating with the Kami is not some game. The esteemed Phoenix developed a systematic intellectual tradition, tested and proven over the course of time immemorial, and that should be more than good enough for serious, not to say sane, minds. Tinkering with what one doesn't understand and with which one has no business involving oneself is at best the product of juvenile impulses that need to be restrained by responsible adults.

While I surely would not take it upon myself to speak for my dear friends in the Unicorn, I profess myself confused. Perhaps the honoured Lion could consult the Ikoma Histories on my behalf to remind me of the duty taken up by the Kami Shinjo? Something, something, knowledge of the world beyond the borders of the Empire? Surely you can look it up. And meishodo? Please, the Asahina have embued the Kami into tsangusuri and nemuranai for generations. Meishodo, despite it’s ‘exotic’ origins is no different.  The Unicorn are simply more akin to, shall we say, country cousins? Nothing could go seriously wrong.

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3 hours ago, Doji Hyōkin said:

While I surely would not take it upon myself to speak for my dear friends in the Unicorn, I profess myself confused. Perhaps the honoured Lion could consult the Ikoma Histories on my behalf to remind me of the duty taken up by the Kami Shinjo? Something, something, knowledge of the world beyond the borders of the Empire? Surely you can look it up. And meishodo? Please, the Asahina have embued the Kami into tsangusuri and nemuranai for generations. Meishodo, despite it’s ‘exotic’ origins is no different.  The Unicorn are simply more akin to, shall we say, country cousins? Nothing could go seriously wrong.

Tell me, would you let your country cousin address the Imperial Court?  Before you answer, consider the tale of the creation of the Sparrow Clan.

Now, do you understand why we don't want Unicorn meishodo messing with the established deals with kami throughout the country.

4 hours ago, Manchu said:

proven over the course of time immemorial, 

If you'll excuse me being just a bit pedantic in exchange for an interesting story.  The phrase is 'from' or 'since time immemorial' and as a legal term means before any legal records and living memory.  These days, given people's lifespan, it's before 6 July 1189.  This was the date of the coronation of the King that the oldest people could remember when the concept came into existence, the year 1275.

To get back, vaguely, to topic, I wonder when that would be considered in Rokugan?  The date of the Coronation of the Emperor before the one who commissioned Soshi Saibankan?

Edited by Tonbo Karasu

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22 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

If you'll excuse me being just a bit pedantic in exchange for an interesting story.  The phrase is 'from' or 'since time immemorial' and as a legal term means before any legal records and living memory.  These days, given people's lifespan, it's before 6 July 1189.  This was the date of the coronation of the King that the oldest people could remember when the concept came into existence, the year 1275.

To get back, vaguely, to topic, I wonder when that would be considered in Rokugan?  The date of the Coronation of the Emperor before the one who commissioned Soshi Saibankan?

Hmmm... "living memory" might imply as far back as the Kami descending to Seppun Hill, depending on whether a certain Kami is still around, and whether you count them as living.

Edited by Mangod

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It was the Ki-Rin who left but it was the Unicorn who returned. Shinjo No Kami set out to discover what dangers beyond the Empire might threaten it. Her duty to leave civilization became, for her Unicorn descendants, incautious fascination with barbarism. The darkness of night cannot make daylight brighter nor does civilization require anything from what lies beyond itself for its perfection. It speaks to how much Lady Shinjo's followers lost in their wanderings that they have blithely infected the Empire with dangerous foreign sorcery rather than warn the Empire of its dangers. The openhandedness of the Phoenix vis-a-vis the Unicorn has now resulted in the infestation of Phoenix lands. I suppose it is no wonder that the Unicorn Champion herself infamously flouts the bond of her word.

As to tempus immemoriam, it was not my intention to evoke a legal principal without relevance to the Empire. Admittedly, it was a poorly chosen phrase. The people of Rokugan can, if they do not choose otherwise, remember all the way back. It is with the benefit of this complete account that I praise the trustworthiness of the insight of Phoenix into matters concerning the Kami. Even were she not Akodo Toturi's esteemed wife, how can Lion sanely disregard the premonitions of Lady Kaede?

Edited by Manchu

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2 hours ago, Manchu said:

It was the Ki-Rin who left but it was the Unicorn who returned. Shinjo No Kami set out to discover what threats beyond the Empire might threaten it. Her duty to leave civilization became, for her Unicorn descendants, incautious fascination with barbarism. The darkness of night cannot make daylight brighter nor does civilization require anything from what lies beyond itself for its perfection. It speaks to how much Lady Shinjo's followers lost in their wanderings that they have blithely infected the Empire with dangerous foreign sorcery rather than warn the Empire of its dangers. The openhandedness of the Phoenix vis-a-vis the Unicorn has now resulted in the infestation of Phoenix lands. I suppose it is no wonder that the Unicorn Champion herself infamously flouts the bond of her word.

As to tempus immemoriam, it was not my intention to evoke a legal principal without relevance to the Empire. Admittedly, it was a poorly chosen phrase. The people of Rokugan can, if they do not chose otherwise, remember all the way back. It is with the benefit of this complete account that I praise the trsutworthiness of the insight of Phoenix into matters concerning the Kami. Even were she not Akodo Toturi's esteemed wife, how can Lion sanely disregard the premonitions of Lady Kaede?

How could the noble Lion possibly flout the will of the Divine Emperor who in his infinite wisdom has decreed that the practice of Meishido is to be allowed. 

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The Emperor merely declined to ban meishodo. That doesn't amount to approving of it or declaring it safe. Indeed, in exchange for not outlawing the practice, the Unicorn must divulge its secrets to the Seppun. You will note this is completely in line with my argument that juvenile impulses be restrained by responsible adults.

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