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Just an outsider suggestion here... this is set to kick-off in the brief span between Ep 7 and 8 right? After the First Order essentially blows up the republic in the Hosnian system and the Jedi order has been wiped out twice in as many generations (first the old order, and then Luke's new one) and the galaxy is going down fecal creek in a canoe without a paddle?

Wouldn't this be an excellent time for remaining old school masters to have a good long hard think about their priorities? Follow the old traditions to the letter, or focus on doing something about the situation at hand? This needn't be rushing out in an all-out war (the last time that ended quite badly for the Jedi), but sitting on the sidelines sticking to Jedi minutia could be at least as conflict worthy as rushing into battle. Take the situation with Korrath and Ro'ka for example. Isn't that an excellent conundrum for Jedi master? Ro'ka could be a great force for good, or just against the First Order, but simply laying down the law on her what she can and can't do doesn't seem to work. Following the Jedi code to the letter, Korrath might well be expected to try to stop her with force for what she's done already, regardless if that's a suicidal fight to jump into because there is no death, only the force amirite? Tolerating her behaviour and gently nudging her towards the light (or just pointing her towards the bad guys) however could probably rack up some "knowing inaction"-conflict along the way but could end up being a net positive for the galaxy... at the cost of Korrath compromising his ideals a bit. Essentially, it's a dilemma that forces him to bend or break which is probably the most interesting challenge you can put before such high powered characters (IMO).

These Jedi masters already seem to have all the answers so, IMO, they need to be put in situations where there is no 100% right answer. Being forced to cooperate with darksiders or being ground to dust beneath the FO war machine seems to be an ideal situation for this, when being a by-the-book, uncompromising Jedi is impossible or suicidal.

Of course "suicidal" is a perfectly valid option here. Ask Master Skywalker. ?

Well, just my two cents. Lurking here has been, if nothing else, educational and inspiring.

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37 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Recognition that this is probably the last chance to get it off the ground?

(I still hold by my suggestion from many moons ago that he might be better suited to get his closure for Korath by just writing it out as a story rather than trying to game it. I'll be honest...I almost considered accepting Tramp's invite, dusting off my old D6 character, and joining in. I did, in fact, update him...just for grins. But, as I told Tramp back then, I'm fine with my headcanon for where the character ended up. And, watching these attempts, I don't think even playing that character again would have been worth the OOC drama.)

ETA: Just want this on the record, too: From other threads and conversations, I don't think Tramp is a bad guy. I think he's stubborn, I think - like pretty much all of us at one time or another - he can have a tendency to be that "Well, actually..." guy. (I know I slip into that from time to time.) But watching from the sidelines, I think he's got a blind spot where playing Korath is concerned. Most of us who've played RPGs for any length of time have that one character that we particularly have an affection for (mine would be a toss-up between that D6 character and my character from the DC Heroes RPG back in high school/college). They can be tough to let go of.

Tramp is extremely rough around the edges, doesn't think about how his behavior will effect others, but he is one of the most honest, loyal, and good hearted people I know,  if you can get past his thick crusty exterior. He's OCD, is a bit delusional, isn't cognizant of that, and assumes that his delusional assumptions are obvious to everyone else.

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26 minutes ago, SithArissa said:

I think potential spoilers (which theres very little  of by just saying you are using a mechanism in a mass print book) is worth losing over all this crap.

Perhaps, perhaps not.

Regardless, the only thing the books themselves do is provide game mechanics or plot devices for these trials. The in universe requirements were established in the canon and other lore, in stories like the Clone Wars cartoon (The source of The Gathering), The Jedi Path, and various previous SW novels, comics, and even games form both new canon and Legends, and, most importantly, The Empire Strikes Back, which is the source NoP used for the Trial of Skill and Trual of Spirit.

25 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

Just an outsider suggestion here... this is set to kick-off in the brief span between Ep 7 and 8 right? After the First Order essentially blows up the republic in the Hosnian system and the Jedi order has been wiped out twice in as many generations (first the old order, and then Luke's new one) and the galaxy is going down fecal creek in a canoe without a paddle?

Wouldn't this be an excellent time for remaining old school masters to have a good long hard think about their priorities? Follow the old traditions to the letter, or focus on doing something about the situation at hand? This needn't be rushing out in an all-out war (the last time that ended quite badly for the Jedi), but sitting on the sidelines sticking to Jedi minutia could be at least as conflict worthy as rushing into battle. Take the situation with Korrath and Ro'ka for example. Isn't that an excellent conundrum for Jedi master? Ro'ka could be a great force for good, or just against the First Order, but simply laying down the law on her what she can and can't do doesn't seem to work. Following the Jedi code to the letter, Korrath might well be expected to try to stop her with force for what she's done already, regardless if that's a suicidal fight to jump into because there is no death, only the force amirite? Tolerating her behaviour and gently nudging her towards the light (or just pointing her towards the bad guys) however could probably rack up some "knowing inaction"-conflict along the way but could end up being a net positive for the galaxy... at the cost of Korrath compromising his ideals a bit. Essentially, it's a dilemma that forces him to bend or break which is probably the most interesting challenge you can put before such high powered characters (IMO).

These Jedi masters already seem to have all the answers so, IMO, they need to be put in situations where there is no 100% right answer. Being forced to cooperate with darksiders or being ground to dust beneath the FO war machine seems to be an ideal situation for this, when being a by-the-book, uncompromising Jedi is impossible or suicidal.

Of course "suicidal" is a perfectly valid option here. Ask Master Skywalker. ?

Well, just my two cents. Lurking here has been, if nothing else, educational and inspiring.

Yes and no. Yes, certain “dogma” that the Prequel Jedi upheld should certainly be let go of. In fact, that seems to be part of why Luke went looking for the First Jedi Temple on Ahch-To. However, other milestones of Jedi training are still pretty essential. And the construction of a lightsaber and passing the Jedi Trials are two of them. In fact, NoP specifically mentions that some variant of the Jedi Trials is something all “Light Side” Force users tend to go through naturally, particularly the Trials of Skill and Spirit. So these aren’t all that unreasonable expectations for the characters to get prepared for. They are part and parcel to being Jedi. Even the most pacifistic Jedi Healer was at least proficient with a lightsaber, if for nothing else, defense, even if he or she never actually uses the weapon. There are only a few very rare exceptions where Jedi were ever granted an exemption from this, and those were typically because of very strict cultural prohibitions against any kind of violence or weapon use by that Jedi’s species. In most cases, such “pacifist” Jedi would instead opt for a crystal that couldn’t inflict lethal wounds, such as Kathricite (a weaker type of Adegan crystal often used in training sabers) and Kimber Stone, to name a few, which only do Stun damage. 

16 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Tramp is extremely rough around the edges, doesn't think about how his behavior will effect others, but he is one of the most honest, loyal, and good hearted people I know,  if you can get past his thick crusty exterior. He's OCD, is a bit delusional, isn't cognizant of that, and assumes that his delusional assumptions are obvious to everyone else.

?

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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43 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

Wouldn't this be an excellent time for remaining old school masters to have a good long hard think about their priorities? Follow the old traditions to the letter, or focus on doing something about the situation at hand?

That would make for a fantastic campaign, IMHO.

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1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes and no. Yes, certain “dogma” that the Prequel Jedi upheld should certainly be let go of. In fact, that seems to be part of why Luke went looking for the First Jedi Temple on Ahch-To. However, other milestones of Jedi training are still pretty essential. And the construction of a lightsaber and passing the Jedi Trials are two of them. In fact, NoP specifically mentions that some variant of the Jedi Trials is something all “Light Side” Force users tend to go through naturally, particularly the Trials of Skill and Spirit. So these aren’t all that unreasonable expectations for the characters to get prepared for. They are part and parcel to being Jedi. Even the most pacifistic Jedi Healer was at least proficient with a lightsaber, if for nothing else, defense, even if he or she never actually uses the weapon. There are only a few very rare exceptions where Jedi were ever granted an exemption from this, and those were typically because of very strict cultural prohibitions against any kind of violence or weapon use by that Jedi’s species. In most cases, such “pacifist” Jedi would instead opt for a crystal that couldn’t inflict lethal wounds, such as Kathricite (a weaker type of Adegan crystal often used in training sabers) and Kimber Stone, to name a few, which only do Stun damage. 

I'm not going to clutter up the thread with an argument, so I'll try to only reply the one time.

With a galaxy in dire straits and needing anyone and everyone to help out, training jedi by the book is a luxury that can't be afforded. Is Korrath the kind of man that would let the galaxy burn because otherwise capable students are held back until they've finished every ritual step? Sure, it might be safer for his students to take a slow meticulous "peace-time" route, but more innocents might be saved if some corners were cut and each student was taught what they most needed to know to go out and make a difference? If someone isn't cut out for lightsaber combat, maybe focus teaching them how to use the force to pilot, where lightsabers don't matter, rather than wasting time.

Which brings up the motivation to why rebuilding the jedi order. If it's to deal with the current crisis, fasttracking students, focusing on their strenghts, would be appealing, maybe even risking a sith to train them in the combat skills they need. On the other hand, if the motivation is primarily to restore the order as it once was with as little compromise as possible, maybe the galaxy burns and the enemy grows too strong to challenge and people curse the jedi for twiddling their thumbs on Ossus while their loved ones died.

Or conversly, it turns out that cutting corners and rushing into action leads to disaster and a slow and steady route would have lead to better results.

Maybe the right choice is to find the right balance. Maybe there is no right choice and the endeavor to rebuild the order is doomed and the only legacy to leave behind is how the last jedi masters made their last stand, to inspire the next ones who try.

The thing is, you seem to assume that training and rebuilding the order is something that will occur without interruption or temptation to act in galactic affairs when the campaign is set in the most tumultuous time since at least the clone wars. It's not really the time for faffing about more than absolutely necessary, and judging what's necessary should be a dilemma, meaning any choice will have some negative consequences either way.

At least, that's how I'd GM it.

If you just want a fairly peaceful training campaign focusing on master-student relations, an old republic setting would probably be more fitting, because in the FO era, there is little time, because people are dying and the enemy is securing their grip. It can of course be ignored, but that should have consequences. As should rushing in.

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1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

 

Perhaps, perhaps not.

Regardless, the only thing the books themselves do is provide game mechanics or plot devices for these trials. The in universe requirements were established in the canon and other lore, in stories like the Clone Wars cartoon (The source of The Gathering), The Jedi Path, and various previous SW novels, comics, and even games form both new canon and Legends, and, most importantly, The Empire Strikes Back, which is the source NoP used for the Trial of Skill and Trual of Spirit.

Yes and no. Yes, certain “dogma” that the Prequel Jedi upheld should certainly be let go of. In fact, that seems to be part of why Luke went looking for the First Jedi Temple on Ahch-To. However, other milestones of Jedi training are still pretty essential. And the construction of a lightsaber and passing the Jedi Trials are two of them. In fact, NoP specifically mentions that some variant of the Jedi Trials is something all “Light Side” Force users tend to go through naturally, particularly the Trials of Skill and Spirit. So these aren’t all that unreasonable expectations for the characters to get prepared for. They are part and parcel to being Jedi. Even the most pacifistic Jedi Healer was at least proficient with a lightsaber, if for nothing else, defense, even if he or she never actually uses the weapon. There are only a few very rare exceptions where Jedi were ever granted an exemption from this, and those were typically because of very strict cultural prohibitions against any kind of violence or weapon use by that Jedi’s species. In most cases, such “pacifist” Jedi would instead opt for a crystal that couldn’t inflict lethal wounds, such as Kathricite (a weaker type of Adegan crystal often used in training sabers) and Kimber Stone, to name a few, which only do Stun damage. 

?

I don't think anyone here objects to the fluff.  the objection I think is you insisting upon a particular OPTIONAL game mechanic that requires the expenditure of resources for narrative progression, when use of that optional game mechanic wasn't EXPLICITLY mentioned when we signed on.  It's a bait and switch tactic and people don't like getting jerked around.  You've got zero right to insist on anything that wasn't explicitly spelled out in the advertisement.  You need to change your expectations because what you want and assumed everyone would go along with ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN THE WAY YOU WANT IT TO.

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6 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

I'm not going to clutter up the thread with an argument, so I'll try to only reply the one time.

With a galaxy in dire straits and needing anyone and everyone to help out, training jedi by the book is a luxury that can't be afforded. Is Korrath the kind of man that would let the galaxy burn because otherwise capable students are held back until they've finished every ritual step? Sure, it might be safer for his students to take a slow meticulous "peace-time" route, but more innocents might be saved if some corners were cut and each student was taught what they most needed to know to go out and make a difference? If someone isn't cut out for lightsaber combat, maybe focus teaching them how to use the force to pilot, where lightsabers don't matter, rather than wasting time.

Which brings up the motivation to why rebuilding the jedi order. If it's to deal with the current crisis, fasttracking students, focusing on their strenghts, would be appealing, maybe even risking a sith to train them in the combat skills they need. On the other hand, if the motivation is primarily to restore the order as it once was with as little compromise as possible, maybe the galaxy burns and the enemy grows too strong to challenge and people curse the jedi for twiddling their thumbs on Ossus while their loved ones died.

Or conversly, it turns out that cutting corners and rushing into action leads to disaster and a slow and steady route would have lead to better results.

Maybe the right choice is to find the right balance. Maybe there is no right choice and the endeavor to rebuild the order is doomed and the only legacy to leave behind is how the last jedi masters made their last stand, to inspire the next ones who try.

The thing is, you seem to assume that training and rebuilding the order is something that will occur without interruption or temptation to act in galactic affairs when the campaign is set in the most tumultuous time since at least the clone wars. It's not really the time for faffing about more than absolutely necessary, and judging what's necessary should be a dilemma, meaning any choice will have some negative consequences either way.

At least, that's how I'd GM it.

If you just want a fairly peaceful training campaign focusing on master-student relations, an old republic setting would probably be more fitting, because in the FO era, there is little time, because people are dying and the enemy is securing their grip. It can of course be ignored, but that should have consequences. As should rushing in.

Nah, the Jedi would never cut corners with training in desperate times.

They'd never shove a lightsaber into an untrained farmboy's hand.

They'd never send him to a swamp planet for a Jedi Master to troll him for a few days.

They'd never fast-track training and fill the trainee's head with half-truths in order to turn him into a blunt weapon pointed directly at the Emperor and Vader.

They'd meticulously follow every dot and comma in the book that put them in the position to need an ill-trained blunt instrument in the first place.

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10 hours ago, TheShard said:

I thought this was a jedi campaign as well. Maybe it's cause i followed the last pbp.

 

We all knew the new characters would be trained as Jedi, thats not the problem this time. Its still tramp assuming things no one else had any idea about.

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14 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

I don't think anyone here objects to the fluff.  the objection I think is you insisting upon a particular OPTIONAL game mechanic that requires the expenditure of resources for narrative progression, when use of that optional game mechanic wasn't EXPLICITLY mentioned when we signed on.  It's a bait and switch tactic and people don't like getting jerked around.  You've got zero right to insist on anything that wasn't explicitly spelled out in the advertisement.  You need to change your expectations because what you want and assumed everyone would go along with ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN THE WAY YOU WANT IT TO.

The “rules” and the adventure scenarios regarding the Gathering and the Jedi Trials,  their requirements and and how they play out are taken directly from the canon. So it shouldn’t come as a big surprise to everyone that I would be using those as written. Whether or not I chose to make any location changes, or not, the basics of these “rite of passage”, what they needed to accomplish, what abilities were necessary to succeed, etc. have been standard for all jedi for thousands of years. To not have those abilities severely handicaps a padawan, so why would someone not want to be prepared.

If you think about it, every Jedi has at least Enhance (with Force Leap), Move, Sense, Seek, Foresee, and, usually, Protect in their repertoire of Force powers, along with Reflect and Improved Reflect. These are the bare minimum standards every Jedi learns, so even if the scenarios didn’t spell out that the students would be tested on those abilities, the canon says that they would, and, as such,  so would any teacher administrating the Trials. So it shouldn’t be that big of a surprise to anyone that their starting characters would need to practice up on those particular abilities and powers on top of their specific fortes.

Regardless, both the Gathering and Jedi Trials are a long way off anyway, particularly the Trials. My only point in bringing them up in the first place was to show part of my reasoning for voting no on the Conjuring of a Phantom lightsaber with the Conjure Power, aside from the RAW ruling on the power, something the Devs confirmed, and is posted in the Developers Answered Questions Thread.

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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@penpenpen makes some very good points on how things may turn out. I sort of imagine it a bit like X-Com, you can spend ages building stuff up, but the galaxy will continue around you. The remnants of the rebellion with Rey and that lot are still going to be fighting Kylo Ren, and if you want to get stuck into the first order before they kill them off, gonna have to act fast. Really we need a bigger time frame but eh, what's done is done. 

@Tramp Graphics, we've all seen your recommendations for how you want people to prepare for the gathering, but you cannot force them to spend xp some place or the other. That's the players decision and shouldn't be forced by the gm. This includes the gm basing sessions specifically around certain skills or talents. There's always another way to solve a problem, and if not, that's what having your mates are there for. 

Also you do seem to continually quote cannon in your arguments to prove points, but also quoting legends for different points. If you are quoting legends you cannot expect us to automatically expect canon to be the word of the law, because sometimes the two conflict. You do really need to pick a side. 

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4 minutes ago, Rabobankrider said:

Also you do seem to continually quote cannon in your arguments to prove points, but also quoting legends for different points.

The point Tramp is trying to make is that we're supposed to have read his mind.?

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1 hour ago, Jonas Shaaf said:

The point Tramp is trying to make is that we're supposed to have read his mind.?

?

1 hour ago, Rabobankrider said:

@penpenpen makes some very good points on how things may turn out. I sort of imagine it a bit like X-Com, you can spend ages building stuff up, but the galaxy will continue around you. The remnants of the rebellion with Rey and that lot are still going to be fighting Kylo Ren, and if you want to get stuck into the first order before they kill them off, gonna have to act fast. Really we need a bigger time frame but eh, what's done is done. 

@Tramp Graphics, we've all seen your recommendations for how you want people to prepare for the gathering, but you cannot force them to spend xp some place or the other. That's the players decision and shouldn't be forced by the gm. This includes the gm basing sessions specifically around certain skills or talents. There's always another way to solve a problem, and if not, that's what having your mates are there for. 

Also you do seem to continually quote cannon in your arguments to prove points, but also quoting legends for different points. If you are quoting legends you cannot expect us to automatically expect canon to be the word of the law, because sometimes the two conflict. You do really need to pick a side. 

Actually the primary sources I use are Canon. Really the only Legends material I still use is where Canon hasn’t covered or overwritten yet, namely the ancient Old Republic era information, which, even in the gane’s “in universe” discussion, says that this information is not necessarily completely accurate, but, Ancient legend which may or may not be true. So, for example, the Legends of the “Qel Droma Saga” exists in the canon, but whether or not they actually occurred as depicted in said legend is as yet unknown. The same with the Revan Chronicles, though, given that Revan’s did make an appearance in the unfinished Clone Wars episodes, his inclusion in the new Canon is pretty assured. Regardless, I always make a point to clarify whether I am referencing Canon or Legends. The information used in both DoH and NoP regarding the Gathering and Jedi Trials Trial of Skill and Trial of Spirit both come from Canon, namely Clone Wars and ESB respectively.

And I,ve already said that I am not forcing, nor trying to force anyone to do anything. I’m simply pointing out the requirements that these specific tests have and strongly recommend that people pay heed to those if they hope to pass said tests. Whether they choose to do so is completely up to them. I cannot “force” anyone to do anything, nor am I trying to.

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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4 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

?

Actually the primary sources I use are Canon. Really the only Legends material I still use is where Canon hasn’t covered or overwritten yet, namely the ancient Old Republic era information, which, even in the gane’s “in universe” discussion, says that this information is not necessarily completely accurate, but, Ancient legend which may or may not be true. So, for example, the Legends of the “Qel Droma Saga” exists in the canon, but whether or not they actually occurred as depicted in said legend is as yet unknown. The same with the Revan Chronicles, though, given that Revan’s did make an appearance in the unfinished Clone Wars episodes, his inclusion in the new Canon is pretty assured. Regardless, I always make a point to clarify whether I am referencing Canon or Legends. The information used in both DoH and NoP regarding the Gathering and Jedi Trials Trial of Skill and Trial of Spirit both come from Canon, namely Clone Wars and ESB respectively.

And I,ve already said that I am not forcing, nor trying to force anyone to do anything. I’m simply pointing out the requirements that these specific tests have and strongly recommend that people pay heed to those if they hope to pass said tests. Whether they choose to do so is completely up to them. I cannot “force” anyone to do anything, nor am I trying to.

The book says "can" as in not required, you're the one adding the requirement

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4 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I’m simply pointing out the requirements that these specific tests have and strongly recommend that people pay heed to those if they hope to pass said tests.

 

Depending on when you try to run the adventure a number of padawans might either fail miserably or refuse to take the Trials (because they know they will fail).  I think that'll make for some pretty cool role playing...

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12 minutes ago, Jonas Shaaf said:

 

Depending on when you try to run the adventure a number of padawans might either fail miserably or refuse to take the Trials (because they know they will fail).  I think that'll make for some pretty cool role playing...

Hey, all you gotta do to be in the new Empress Arissas Sith is sign up. Just saying. 

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25 minutes ago, SithArissa said:

Hey, all you gotta do to be in the new Empress Arissas Sith is sign up. Just saying. 

LOL Korath's stubbornness drives the would be next generation of jedi to join the dark side, that's not going to look good on his CV when he applies for a tenured position at the next academy ?

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1 minute ago, EliasWindrider said:

LOL Korath's stubbornness drives the would be next generation of jedi to join the dark side, that's not going to look good on his CV when he applies for a tenured position at the next academy ?

He can join too! We're equal opportunity kinda Sith. 

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2 minutes ago, SithArissa said:

Only Dark Chocolate.

Hmmm tempting, given Avalon's penchant for snacking on anything that isn't locked down, I think that it would be pretty easy to secure him as your first convert "come to the darkside, we have cookies"

Edited by EliasWindrider

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