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4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Actually, I thought I was plenty explicit at the start.

 I just checked the first post of the prep thread and yep, I was pretty clear: 

tramp one of the most important things about roll play is player choice if people want to be non combative you can't force them if they don't want to join the jedi order you can't force them because playing by someone else choices is no fun

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6 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

that's a general statement which we signed up for, you made unusual assumptions about specifics that you now want to enforce as requirements.

They’re not “unusual assumptions”. The books are very clear that these trials were standar and required rites of passage for all Jedi, though not all Force using sects. Thus, given that the very purpose set forth and agreed upon at the start of the game was that the starting characters would be trained as Jedi, it’s not unreasonable to expect them to learn everything needed to pass the trials and other rites of passage for Jedi. 

6 minutes ago, Stormbourne said:

tramp one of the most important things about roll play is player choice if people want to be non combative you can't force them if they don't want to join the jedi order you can't force them because playing by someone else choices is no fun

I’m not denying anyone choice, so please don’t take it as such. I’m simply pointing out what everyone already agreed upon when they signed up, and what the books say were, and are, the required rites of passage to become Jedi, whether or not they’re combat focused or non-combat focused. We all agreed that the students would be trained as Jedi. That has certain minimum requirements and expectations. @TheShard, @Jonas Shaaf, chime in if you have anything to add, or if you agree or even disagree with any of this. 

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Can I just say, as an outsider looking in, that it seems pretty telling that this campaign has a 31 page OOC thread that required creation of this sub-OOC thread (at 10 pages, for a total of 41), compared to the 11 pages of IC?  From that, I'd say that it's pretty clear that - at the very least - there wasn't/isn't a true meeting of the minds as to what the campaign's story and goals are.

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3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

They’re not “unusual assumptions”. The books are very clear that these trials were standar and required rites of passage for all Jedi, though not all Force using sects. Thus, given that the very purpose set forth and agreed upon at the start of the game was that the starting characters would be trained as Jedi, it’s not unreasonable to expect them to learn everything needed to pass the trials and other rites of passage for Jedi. 

I’m not denying anyone choice, so please don’t take it as such. I’m simply pointing out what everyone already agreed upon when they signed up, and what the books say were, and are, the required rites of passage to become Jedi, whether or not they’re combat focused or non-combat focused. We all agreed that the students would be trained as Jedi. That has certain minimum requirements and expectations. @TheShard, @Jonas Shaaf, chime in if you have anything to add, or if you agree or even disagree with any of this. 

i agree that we signed up to become trained force sensitives not specifically jedi though many will become jedi

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4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

They’re not “unusual assumptions”. The books are very clear that these trials were standar and required rites of passage for all Jedi, though not all Force using sects. Thus, given that the very purpose set forth and agreed upon at the start of the game was that the starting characters would be trained as Jedi, it’s not unreasonable to expect them to learn everything needed to pass the trials and other rites of passage for Jedi. 

I’m not denying anyone choice, so please don’t take it as such. I’m simply pointing out what everyone already agreed upon when they signed up, and what the books say were, and are, the required rites of passage to become Jedi, whether or not they’re combat focused or non-combat focused. We all agreed that the students would be trained as Jedi. That has certain minimum requirements and expectations. @TheShard, @Jonas Shaaf, chime in if you have anything to add, or if you agree or even disagree with any of this. 

"can" does not mean required, and the fact that people are surprised by this now means yes they were unusual assumptions and noone else agreed to them.

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4 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Can I just say, as an outsider looking in, that it seems pretty telling that this campaign has a 31 page OOC thread that required creation of this sub-OOC thread (at 10 pages, for a total of 41), compared to the 11 pages of IC?  From that, I'd say that it's pretty clear that - at the very least - there wasn't/isn't a true meeting of the minds as to what the campaign's story and goals are.

This is actually almost exactly what I was expecting whenever @Tramp Graphics tries to play Korath Lorren, it's pretty hard to predict ALL of the specific insanities that comes out of his brain, but I predicted the issue with the campaign being aboard the Jedi Star and Tramp power tripping 2 or 3 failed attempts at this campaign back

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Just now, EliasWindrider said:

This is actually almost exactly what I was expecting whenever @Tramp Graphics tries to play Korath Lorren, it's pretty hard to predict ALL of the specific insanities that comes out of his brain, but I predicted the issue with the campaign being aboard the Jedi Star and Tramp power tripping 2 or 3 failed attempts at this campaign back

Well, yeah...I was, too, after seeing all of the various drama with those attempts. I was just being nice. ;) (If I stop being nice, I'll say that I'm actually surprised it's lasted this long. There've been several moments where I figured it was about to blow up. Again.)

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2 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

I'm going to be running the Trials as they're written in DoH and Nexus of Power.  

This is the part that would have been helpful in the prep thread.

 

As a rule, if you are ever concerned there may be doubts.... Be explicit.

 

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@Tramp Graphics your prep thread only mentions starting xp, that's it. Your post there was still pretty generic and didn't have a huge amount of details. 

In terms of characters and lightsaber, Kark has been written as a bit of a coward, and currently has no weapon and no ranks in combat. It would take something pretty drastic to change his mind (and personality) regarding that, something more than 'because I say so'. 

Regarding the lightsaber, If Avalon wants to go all Mother Talzin with a lightsaber, I think a mastery level like he described is probably the best option, as it's something for him to work towards, and there is risk to the action if there's a bad roll. I won't be gm when it happens I suspect, but that's my two cents.

Unfortunatly I have run out of time today for the ic post, but I have a day off work tomorrow so I can sort it then. Sorry for the delay on that. 

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47 minutes ago, SithArissa said:

No one agreed to terms you never stated.

What terms? The terms were that they’d be trained as Jedi. Part of training as Jedi entails building a lightsaber and passing the Jedi Trials. It’s part and parcel with the training. 

44 minutes ago, Stormbourne said:

i agree that we signed up to become trained force sensitives not specifically jedi though many will become jedi

The first post in the prep thread says Jedi, not just Force users. That is what everyone agreed upon. 

Like I said, I am not telling you, any of you, how to spend you XP. All I am saying is what was expected since the beginning of the game, and clarifying what the books say is required to meet that goal. I never expected this to be that controversial, particularly since both of your characters already have some training in the Lightsaber skill already. 

27 minutes ago, Jonas Shaaf said:

This is the part that would have been helpful in the prep thread.

 

As a rule, if you are ever concerned there may be doubts.... Be explicit.

 

Perhaps. However, back on May 11, I did actually state that the characters would be building lightsabers and put through the Trials:

Quote

I’d like at least three willing to take turns as GM. So far it’s @Rabobankrider and myself, with @Rabobankriderstarting off. If he’s willing, I’d like @TheShard to take a turn as well. Once it’s time for the apprentices to get their crystals, we’ll Split the party into three (possibly four) groups, each under a different GM, for that session. The same when the apprentices eventually qualify for the Trials. That way all of the apprentices can participate. 

It’s on page 5 thirteen posts down in the prep thread. I also mentioned on the 21 of May: 

Quote

@Rabobankrider does. If you want to take the second "shift", you're welcome to. When it comes time for the Gathering, I'm gonna co-GM it, splitting the party into two to four groups, each being run by a different GM. 

This can be found on page 9 fifth post down in the prep thread. So the accepted plan was always that I would be (co)running the starting characters through the Gathering, their building a lightsaber, and going through the Jedi Trials. I thought that was pretty clear. If I wasn’t clear, it would have been nice if people would have told me in the prep thread to clarify it better. I’m not a mind reader. 

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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Even in the things you are quoting you never say anything about the trials, very specific trials, in those books! For all anyone knew you were pulling them out the d6 system or star wars galaxies. 

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55 minutes ago, Jonas Shaaf said:

This is the part that would have been helpful in the prep thread.

 

As a rule, if you are ever concerned there may be doubts.... Be explicit.

 

Tramp said that not me.  You're attributing the statement to the wrong person 

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35 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

What terms? The terms were that they’d be trained as Jedi. Part of training as Jedi entails building a lightsaber and passing the Jedi Trials. It’s part and parcel with the training. 

The first post in the prep thread says Jedi, not just Force users. That is what everyone agreed upon. 

Like I said, I am not telling you, any of you, how to spend you XP. All I am saying is what was expected since the beginning of the game, and clarifying what the books say is required to meet that goal. I never expected this to be that controversial, particularly since both of your characters already have some training in the Lightsaber skill already. 

Perhaps. However, back on May 11, I did actually state that the characters would be building lightsabers and put through the Trials:

It’s on page 5 thirteen posts down in the prep thread. I also mentioned on the 21 of May: 

This can be found on page 9 fifth post down in the prep thread. So the accepted plan was always that I would be (co)running the starting characters through the Gathering, their building a lightsaber, and going through the Jedi Trials. I thought that was pretty clear. If I wasn’t clear, it would have been nice if people would have told me in the prep thread to clarify it better. I’m not a mind reader. 

No you don't get to play the victim card/shift blame here, if you have particular expectations it's on you to make them EXPLICIT up front, otherwise consider your expectations null/void/ignored.

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15 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Tramp said that not me.  You're attributing the statement to the wrong person 

Did I cut and paste from the wrong post?  Sorry Elias.  That was totally for Tramp.  Mea culpa.

Edited by Jonas Shaaf
spelling

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24 minutes ago, SithArissa said:

Even in the things you are quoting you never say anything about the trials, very specific trials, in those books! For all anyone knew you were pulling them out the d6 system or star wars galaxies. 

Bingo! Exactly my point!

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1 hour ago, Nytwyng said:

Well, yeah...I was, too, after seeing all of the various drama with those attempts. I was just being nice. ;) (If I stop being nice, I'll say that I'm actually surprised it's lasted this long. There've been several moments where I figured it was about to blow up. Again.)

That it's still going is primarily due to @Rabobankrider who is an amazing people person, he's remarkably fair, de-escalates situations, and doesn't let tramp get away with murder, and I don't know why but Tramp seems to respect his authority more than the GMs from the previous attempts at this campaign (and the "I don't know why" is a statement about Tramp not following past patterns exactly)

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8 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

No you don't get to play the victim card/shift blame here, if you have particular expectations it's on you to make them EXPLICIT up front, otherwise consider your expectations null/void/ignored.

As I said, Keith, I thought I was plenty explicit.

 

1 minute ago, Jonas Shaaf said:

Bingo! Exactly my point!

In fact, when I was asked what the Gathering was, I did clarify what it was just a few posts down:

Quote

That’s when Jedi apprentices gather their lightsaber crystals in preparation for building their lightsaber.

So, I was pretty explicit that I would be co-running these specific milestones as sessions for the starting characters once they reach the appropriate XP/proficiency level. I don’t know how much more explicit I could have been without spelling out every detail of the adventures with “Spoilers”.

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1 hour ago, Rabobankrider said:

@Tramp Graphics your prep thread only mentions starting xp, that's it. Your post there was still pretty generic and didn't have a huge amount of details. 

In terms of characters and lightsaber, Kark has been written as a bit of a coward, and currently has no weapon and no ranks in combat. It would take something pretty drastic to change his mind (and personality) regarding that, something more than 'because I say so'. 

Regarding the lightsaber, If Avalon wants to go all Mother Talzin with a lightsaber, I think a mastery level like he described is probably the best option, as it's something for him to work towards, and there is risk to the action if there's a bad roll. I won't be gm when it happens I suspect, but that's my two cents.

Unfortunatly I have run out of time today for the ic post, but I have a day off work tomorrow so I can sort it then. Sorry for the delay on that. 

Then Excla’ur or Akua would probably be the best fits for training Kark. 

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14 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

As I said, Keith, I thought I was plenty explicit.

 

In fact, when I was asked what the Gathering was, I did clarify what it was just a few posts down:

So, I was pretty explicit that I would be co-running these specific milestones as sessions for the starting characters once they reach the appropriate XP/proficiency level. I don’t know how much more explicit I could have been without spelling out every detail of the adventures with “Spoilers”.

You could have said "I'm using the systems from these two books" 

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21 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

That it's still going is primarily due to @Rabobankrider who is an amazing people person, he's remarkably fair, de-escalates situations, and doesn't let tramp get away with murder, and I don't know why but Tramp seems to respect his authority more than the GMs from the previous attempts at this campaign (and the "I don't know why" is a statement about Tramp not following past patterns exactly)

Recognition that this is probably the last chance to get it off the ground?

(I still hold by my suggestion from many moons ago that he might be better suited to get his closure for Korath by just writing it out as a story rather than trying to game it. I'll be honest...I almost considered accepting Tramp's invite, dusting off my old D6 character, and joining in. I did, in fact, update him...just for grins. But, as I told Tramp back then, I'm fine with my headcanon for where the character ended up. And, watching these attempts, I don't think even playing that character again would have been worth the OOC drama.)

ETA: Just want this on the record, too: From other threads and conversations, I don't think Tramp is a bad guy. I think he's stubborn, I think - like pretty much all of us at one time or another - he can have a tendency to be that "Well, actually..." guy. (I know I slip into that from time to time.) But watching from the sidelines, I think he's got a blind spot where playing Korath is concerned. Most of us who've played RPGs for any length of time have that one character that we particularly have an affection for (mine would be a toss-up between that D6 character and my character from the DC Heroes RPG back in high school/college). They can be tough to let go of.

Edited by Nytwyng

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33 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Recognition that this is probably the last chance to get it off the ground?

(I still hold by my suggestion from many moons ago that he might be better suited to get his closure for Korath by just writing it out as a story rather than trying to game it. I'll be honest...I almost considered accepting Tramp's invite, dusting off my old D6 character, and joining in. I did, in fact, update him...just for grins. But, as I told Tramp back then, I'm fine with my headcanon for where the character ended up. And, watching these attempts, I don't think even playing that character again would have been worth the OOC drama.)

ETA: Just want this on the record, too: From other threads and conversations, I don't think Tramp is a bad guy. I think he's stubborn, I think - like pretty much all of us at one time or another - he can have a tendency to be that "Well, actually..." guy. (I know I slip into that from time to time.) But watching from the sidelines, I think he's got a blind spot where playing Korath is concerned. Most of us who've played RPGs for any length of time have that one character that we particularly have an affection for (mine would be a toss-up between that D6 character and my character from the DC Heroes RPG back in high school/college). They can be tough to let go of.

Oh, there is no question I’m stubborn. I fully admit that I’m a “stubborn kraut”, and come from a family of “stubborn krauts”. ?

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36 minutes ago, SithArissa said:

You could have said "I'm using the systems from these two books" 

Maybe, but not without potentially spoiling the adventures in question. Granted, by bringing the books up here, I might have done that already buuuuuut... ?

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5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Maybe, but not without potentially spoiling the adventures in question. Granted, by bringing the books up here, I might have done that already buuuuuut... ?

I think potential spoilers (which theres very little  of by just saying you are using a mechanism in a mass print book) is worth losing over all this crap.

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