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Posted (edited)

Because I have so much invested in 2e, I’d like to see third edition leverage the loads of existing 2e content. 

My suggestion would be to take IMO the best of first edition and second edition and merge them. 

I’d keep 2e as is but I’d automate the Overlord similar to what Gloomhaven and Sword and Sorcery have done. Basically remove the 1 vs many aspect and go full co-op. This would also ensble true solo play without needing some homebrew variant. Secondly, I’d bring back the reveal as you go nature of first edition. All campaigns going forward should be reworked to eliminate the race aspects and put more emphasis on exploration and interesting decision making. Utilize those skill checks! Make the town in between quests slightly more interesting. 

I’d remove the two scenarios and have one big quest  

Honestly I don’t even know if you have to call what I’m asking for third edition. It could just be a new expansion introducing an automated overlord AI system featuring a campaign focused on exploration and more hack and slash/loot instead of racing to complete objectives.

If these two changes were implemented into 2e it would be the ultimate dungeon crawler IMO. Call it 3rd edition or a 2e expansion, I don’t care  

 

Edited by noodles

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I couldn't disagree more about removing the Overlord. It adds a loot of tension and psychology when you are with a good group. The absence of an OL is actually one of the very few issues I have with Gloomhaven.

I've been testing out the Road to Legend-app the last week, and I'm very positively surprised about it. Great fun and a huge potential. It's good to see all of the expansion-tiles used in one campaign.

D3ed will without a doubt be based on using an app. But I do not see why that should eliminate the OL. At least make it optional. Instead, the app could ensure randomly generated maps/events, that will add what Descent is REALLY missing: The sense of EXPLORATION!

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Exploration and the reveal as you go is the number one aspect second edition is missing - agreed! First edition was so much better in this regard.

As for going co-op, I am just always the overlord in my group because I'm the only one who actually knows how to play lol, it would be nice to be a hero now and then.

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I agree. The overlord, one against all, is not my favourite thing. But I don't want a thid edition, cause simply I would not buy it. No reason to put aside all the stuff (other than FFG profit). A conversion kit, or an expansion eliminating the OL would be ok.

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Posted (edited)

I will not buy a further edition of this game unless there is an option of 1-v-many.  In other words, I want an Overlord.

For me, this is a board game.  I have little, to no desire, to use an app while playing a board game.  Having said that, as long as the app allows me to optionally be the OL, I would live with it.

Edited by any2cards

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Posted (edited)

I think the odds of having more games with a 1 vs many aspect are low. My experience is that most people hate the OL role, and it's not just about playing it. These are all my opinions based on how I have seen people play 1 vs Many games.

When the game is designed so that the 1 has a fighting chance against the Many, then you often get the most experienced and knowledgeable player beating up everyone at the table. Often you end up with the Many feeling miserable and not wanting to continue playing. Morale loss sets in and the game gets shelved for something where the whole group gets to have fun.

The 1 could pull his punches, but then you end up in the same place as games where the heroes have a built in advantage. You either decide to take on the role of facilitating everyone else having a good time, or you just feel like the game's punching bag. Morale loss sets in again, though now it's often the 1 getting outvoted and coming off as a selfish jerk.

1 vs Many is a neat concept, it just doesn't mesh well with human psychology. People want to feel like they are on equal standing and that everyone has a fair chance. That's really hard to deliver in an asymmetric setup like this. People often come away from these games with the opinion that 1 vs Many games are inherently bad and broken. I think it's why the most successful competitive board games are either an every man for himself experience or sets of even teams.

Edited by Proto Persona

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13 hours ago, noodles said:

Because I have so much invested in 2e, I’d like to see third edition leverage the loads of existing 2e content. 

My suggestion would be to take IMO the best of first edition and second edition and merge them. 

I’d keep 2e as is but I’d automate the Overlord similar to what Gloomhaven and Sword and Sorcery have done. Basically remove the 1 vs many aspect and go full co-op. This would also ensble true solo play without needing some homebrew variant. Secondly, I’d bring back the reveal as you go nature of first edition. All campaigns going forward should be reworked to eliminate the race aspects and put more emphasis on exploration and interesting decision making. Utilize those skill checks! Make the town in between quests slightly more interesting. 

I’d remove the two scenarios and have one big quest  

Honestly I don’t even know if you have to call what I’m asking for third edition. It could just be a new expansion introducing an automated overlord AI system featuring a campaign focused on exploration and more hack and slash/loot instead of racing to complete objectives.

If these two changes were implemented into 2e it would be the ultimate dungeon crawler IMO. Call it 3rd edition or a 2e expansion, I don’t care 

Sorry if I sound a bit sceptical, but you do realize, that what you describe is essentially Road to Legend? Haven't you tried that out yet?

It wouldn't make sense to create a third edition in the way you described it, because this already exists.

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8 hours ago, DerDelphi said:

Sorry if I sound a bit sceptical, but you do realize, that what you describe is essentially Road to Legend? Haven't you tried that out yet?

It wouldn't make sense to create a third edition in the way you described it, because this already exists.

I’ve tried road to legend but it’s lacking. If they put better campaigns in it then maybe you’d be right. 

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16 hours ago, any2cards said:

I will not buy a further edition of this game unless there is an option of 1-v-many.  In other words, I want an Overlord.

For me, this is a board game.  I have little, to no desire, to use an app while playing a board game.  Having said that, as long as the app allows me to optionally be the OL, I would live with it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm too against the app. 😀

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On 7/14/2018 at 10:09 PM, any2cards said:

I will not buy a further edition of this game unless there is an option of 1-v-many.  In other words, I want an Overlord.

For me, this is a board game.  I have little, to no desire, to use an app while playing a board game.  Having said that, as long as the app allows me to optionally be the OL, I would live with it.

I guess be ready for disappointment. The trend is clearly moving towards app assisted board games. And in many ways, this makes sense. Gloomhaven without apps to deal with the monster AI cards and plethora of bits and statuses is a nightmare in bookkeeping. The app literally reduces setup / take down and game play sessions by hours. This is one example but I'm sure there are many.

Considering I'm not an old fart "stuck in my ways" I'm perfectly fine with apps helping making games less about book keeping and more about playing the game.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Alcovitch said:

I guess be ready for disappointment. The trend is clearly moving towards app assisted board games. And in many ways, this makes sense. Gloomhaven without apps to deal with the monster AI cards and plethora of bits and statuses is a nightmare in bookkeeping. The app literally reduces setup / take down and game play sessions by hours. This is one example but I'm sure there are many.

Considering I'm not an old fart "stuck in my ways" I'm perfectly fine with apps helping making games less about book keeping and more about playing the game.

I will take the high road here, and assume you didn't mean to call me an "old fart, stuck in my ways".

While I own Gloomhaven, I have not yet formally begun play, so I cannot give first hand perspective.  Having said that, I know many who have managed to play the game without the need to interact with an app.  Perhaps us "old folk" simply have a better attention span, and are more detail oriented.

A board game is just that ... a game whose central focus is a board around which several individuals congregate for a social, good time.  I don't consider being forced to interact with an app, via various digital devices, to be part of that board game.  An app such as that used by D2e does far more than "book keeping".  It completely replaces the adversarial nature of the game, and completely removes one major role, that of the Overlord.

I am not aware of your age in specific, but in general, the younger generation is fascinated with such devices, so much so, that their ability to interact effectively in a social, group gathering, is highly diminished.  I simply see the addition of apps to games such as D2e to be more of the same.

Further, it is quite clear that our world in general, and the USA in specific, is moving more towards a focus of participation trophies, everyone gets to feel good about themselves, everyone gets to win, etc.  That is why coop's seem to be the in-thing at this time.  It allows everyone to participate without the potential of conflict, awkward interactions, someone losing, etc. ... most of those things that I have distinctly found are skills lacking in the younger generation - that is to say the ability to cope with all of the aforementioned "negative" effects of true competition.

I, quite frankly, consider this a significant step backwards, and one of the major reasons why this country struggles in so many areas.  In the real world, you don't always get to win, you don't always get to avoid difficult things such as conflict resolution, etc.  In life, there is competition in most everything we do.  So it certainly makes sense to prepare our children properly ... one of the things that does this is competitive board games that involve critical and strategic thinking, where decisions that you make have very real consequences.

This is what is lost when everyone is buried in their electronic devices ... I certainly prefer to have the choice to play a game without requiring one.  You certainly are free to feel otherwise.

Just my two cents.

Edited by any2cards

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I agree 100% with your argument, any2cards. I don't like the app too, but for some diferent reasons. The only thing I have a different point of view is about the overlord, it's a mechanic I don't like, maybe cause I'm used to pen and paper rpg, where in the role of the 'dungeon master' you don't have to win against the adventurers. That's my main reason. I'd rather play with them, not against them. I know it's not the same, but how can I not feel like a dugeon master in the role of an overlord?!?!

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@leewroy ... I understand what you are saying.  Being a Dungeon Master is somewhat different.  I think in that role, you are focused on making sure that there is an immersive story, and that the individuals playing within that immersive world all have a good time.  This means that you are constantly balancing difficulty/challenge versus fun, etc.  In that sense, you are playing WITH them, not so much as you have the same win conditions, but because if you perform your job well, you and they both have a good time.

I would actually be fine with this, if that is what a potential D3e would become ...

I just don't want to have to interact with an app to achieve this environment.

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Dungeon Crawlers are in the end a varied bunch, and consumers of them equally so. Some like overlord, others do not, some want random room generation and monsters, others want stories and scenarios, some want campaigns and leveling, others want one off quests. Now we add whether we want an app to drive the intelligence or not. There will always be different preferences around.

I like Descent 2nd because out of all of them it covers most bases, you can just about get away with most styles of dungeon crawling. It has morphed from being very overlord and competitive into more of a dungeon crawl exploration over time.

FFG will probably need to decide where the market is most lucrative, kickstarters may suggest co-op and solo are the way to go at the moment rather than overlord, and as such there is a market for a proper app driven game that evolves and expands and adds new ideas. It may not be for everyone, but i would say it probably has the biggest market potential right now as it is still being explored as a style. If we do see a version 3 i personally expect it to try and offer something other games like Massive Darkness, Sword & Sorcery, Warhammer Quest do not and that may lead it more towards the app. We will see in time ... 

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^--- Nice post.

It is important to remember that FFG (Asmodee) is a business, and their focus is to make money.  As a result, I agree that any potential future version of Descent will focus on those areas that they feel will provide the greatest return on investment.  And that most certainly will be with a strong leaning to co-op style play.

It's unfortunate from my perspective, but it's foolish to tilt at reality.

Of course, I also believe that any potential D3e is a long way off.  Given point one above, I think they are far more focused right now on milking their Disney Star Wars License dry ...

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Posted (edited)
On ‎7‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 8:34 PM, any2cards said:

I will take the high road here, and assume you didn't mean to call me an "old fart, stuck in my ways".

While I own Gloomhaven, I have not yet formally begun play, so I cannot give first hand perspective.  Having said that, I know many who have managed to play the game without the need to interact with an app.  Perhaps us "old folk" simply have a better attention span, and are more detail oriented.

A board game is just that ... a game whose central focus is a board around which several individuals congregate for a social, good time.  I don't consider being forced to interact with an app, via various digital devices, to be part of that board game.  An app such as that used by D2e does far more than "book keeping".  It completely replaces the adversarial nature of the game, and completely removes one major role, that of the Overlord.

I am not aware of your age in specific, but in general, the younger generation is fascinated with such devices, so much so, that their ability to interact effectively in a social, group gathering, is highly diminished.  I simply see the addition of apps to games such as D2e to be more of the same.

Further, it is quite clear that our world in general, and the USA in specific, is moving more towards a focus of participation trophies, everyone gets to feel good about themselves, everyone gets to win, etc.  That is why coop's seem to be the in-thing at this time.  It allows everyone to participate without the potential of conflict, awkward interactions, someone losing, etc. ... most of those things that I have distinctly found are skills lacking in the younger generation - that is to say the ability to cope with all of the aforementioned "negative" effects of true competition.

I, quite frankly, consider this a significant step backwards, and one of the major reasons why this country struggles in so many areas.  In the real world, you don't always get to win, you don't always get to avoid difficult things such as conflict resolution, etc.  In life, there is competition in most everything we do.  So it certainly makes sense to prepare our children properly ... one of the things that does this is competitive board games that involve critical and strategic thinking, where decisions that you make have very real consequences.

This is what is lost when everyone is buried in their electronic devices ... I certainly prefer to have the choice to play a game without requiring one.  You certainly are free to feel otherwise.

Just my two cents.

You sound old in this post. You sound like the sort of person who says they don't want to use the internet because "we got along before without it fine". Why would you be against a labour saving device?

 

Play Gloomhaven. I absolutely love the game but if there was an app to control the monsters it'd be a thousand times easier. Having to go through and get the sleeves for each monster, then sleeve each one and then make sure you're using the right cards (out of hundreds) to control them is a lot of fiddling.  Last night we did a level with 6 types of demons and it's often hard to remember which cards you've drawn and which you've used. It's getting in the way of actually playing and an app would smooth that out so much.

I am glad the majority is pro-app and that the industry is moving in that direction.

 

In regards to the Overlord it just means that you always have to have at least 3 people to play (which isn't always easy) and it always means that someone isn't enjoying it. I played Descent as the overlord every time when we played pre-app as the game is mine and I have the most familiarity with it. Just like happens in most cases. It's nice to actually get to PLAY the game instead of just being someone who is there to annoy all the other players. And it avoids Descent's biggest problem - snowballing of one side so they always win and the other side gives up playing.

You don't need to go far back in posts here or on BGG to see that complaint over and over and it's in reviews too.

 

Edited by Taear

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9 hours ago, Taear said:

Play Gloomhaven. I absolutely love the game but if there was an app to control the monsters it'd be a thousand times easier.

You should google that...

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10 hours ago, Proto Persona said:

What, you mean this search could lead to something like this or this?

I know unofficial ones exist but I don't really like using it unless it's made specifically by the person who made the game tbh.

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36 minutes ago, Taear said:

I know unofficial ones exist but I don't really like using it unless it's made specifically by the person who made the game tbh.

Is there a reason you feel that way? It's been my experience the only thing official apps have is more money for polishing. I doubt that's something the Gloomhaven guys would invest in.

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9 hours ago, Proto Persona said:

Is there a reason you feel that way? It's been my experience the only thing official apps have is more money for polishing. I doubt that's something the Gloomhaven guys would invest in.

I dunno, he's a really....invested in details sort of guy. I can see him wanting to make one.

 

And because I like to engage with the game in the way the developers intended, I guess?  I don't really like using mods in computer games for roughly the same reason. It just doesn't feel right to me. I'm fine to say "This rule is dumb and I don't like it" but a big change feels different.

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If they decide to not make a 3rd edition for Descent and not to continue supporting it physically, why not go into a different direction and make a Lord of the Rings version? They already have the rights for other LOTR games and can make it essentially how they did Star Wars. I for one would buy every product if they made a Lord of the Rings adventure/dungeon crawl game. 

Now, if they decide to do 3E or continue to make physical content for Descent, then I understand not wanting two fantasy games competing with each other, but if no 3E, why not give it a try?

 

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