A quick review about slaved turrtes and gt

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

Are they still optional? Could I choose to not get the extra dice in order to attack twice?

Also with Gunnery team, if I want to target the same target from the same hull zone (of course not via Advanced Gunnery) could I do it if I don't use GT to attack twice from the same hull zone? Impetuous + GT for example attacking from two different zones and then triggering the title to attack again from one of them against the same target (squadron)

[R4Pi3R 101]

Have they ever been optional?

The cannot part ist not bound to any condition so by RAW (and since there's no exception made in the FAQ, also RAI) you cannot attack more than once per activation.

To the second part, I submitted a similar question considering Gunnery Teams and Ordnance Pods, which creates the same dilemma, but haven't gotten a reply yet.

Edited July 13, 2018 by R4Pi3R

[Drasnighta 26,832]

12 minutes ago, R4Pi3R said:

Have they ever been optional?

The cannot part ist not bound to any condition so by RAW (and since there's no exception made in the FAQ, also RAI) you cannot attack more than once per activation.

To the second part, I submitted a similar question considering Gunnery Teams and Ordnance Pods, which creates the same dilemma, but haven't gotten a reply yet.

The Golden Rule is pretty straightforward.

 

Cannot, when on an upgrade card, is absolute.

Absolute meaning non-discretionary and entirely non-optional.

 

If it we’re optional, we would not need the GT/Advanced gunnery ruling in the faq, as you would justbekect to not use GT to gain the Advanced gunnery benefit.

 

If you equip slaved Turrets, then you can only make one attack. You get a bonus die vs ships for your trouble.

 

Gunnery team equipped ships cannot attack the same ship or squad twice... no matter what says they may, can, or even MUST... Cannot takes precedence.

Edited July 13, 2018 by Drasnighta

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

3 minutes ago, R4Pi3R said:

Have they ever been optional? The cannot part ist not bound to any condition so by RAW (and since there's no exception made in the FAQ, also RAI) you cannot attack more than once per activation.

Resolving an upgrade card effect is optional unless otherwise specified. All other card effects are mandatory unless otherwise specified.

 

Are both restrictions part of the card's effect? I mean, my guess is "no, they are not" cause they are not conditional restrictions like "if you do this, don't do that" but neither are enhancent armament bonus. Even if it has no sense to choose to no resolve it, it is possible. The thing is that advanced gunnery faq seems to suggest I cannot choose but that's just AG's entry and all it says is that you cannot use AG effect over ST or GT effects.

I am here doing just a bit of devil's advocate but it is a for good reason. When providing a ruling I like to explores as many angles as possible.

The thing is

1 they are upgrades

2 upgrades effects are optional

3 their limitations are "effects" provided but the card (they wouldn't exist otherwise).

4. I choose to not resolve its effect.

5 I am not limited by its restriction.

 

Is that chain of logic correct?

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

2 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

The Golden Rule is pretty straightforward.

 

Cannot, when on an upgrade card, is absolute.

Absolute meaning non-discretionary and entirely non-optional.

 

If it we’re optional, we would not need the GT/Advanced gunnery ruling in the faq, as you would justbekect to not use GT to gain the Advanced gunnery benefit.

 

If you equip slaved Turrets, then you can only make one attack. You get a bonus die vs ships for your trouble.

 

Gunnery team equipped ships cannot attack the same ship or squad twice... no matter what says they may, can, or even MUST... Cannot takes precedence.

As the RRG points it as an effect I doubted... but it has sense. It is just a negative must actually.

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

ok thanks!

[TheEasternKing 607]

4 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Resolving an upgrade card effect is optional unless otherwise specified. All other card effects are mandatory unless otherwise specified.

 

Are both restrictions part of the card's effect? I mean, my guess is "no, they are not" cause they are not conditional restrictions like "if you do this, don't do that" but neither are enhancent armament bonus. Even if it has no sense to choose to no resolve it, it is possible. The thing is that advanced gunnery faq seems to suggest I cannot choose but that's just AG's entry and all it says is that you cannot use AG effect over ST or GT effects.

I am here doing just a bit of devil's advocate but it is a for good reason. When providing a ruling I like to explores as many angles as possible.

The thing is

1 they are upgrades

2 upgrades effects are optional

3 their limitations are "effects" provided but the card (they wouldn't exist otherwise).

4. I choose to not resolve its effect.

5 I am not limited by its restriction.

 

Is that chain of logic correct?

 

Yes, it is.

The "cannot" should only come into play if you choose to use the upgrade card, it is a loophole I have never liked.

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

6 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

 

Yes, it is.

The "cannot" should only come into play if you choose to use the upgrade card, it is a loophole I have never liked.

It cannot be this way or jamming fields would be optional again

[Rocco79 28]

are modification Upgrades really optional? 

[R4Pi3R 101]

Ok some questions in the follow-up:

Where is it stated, that the usage of ugrades is optional unless otherwise stated? All optional effects state they are optional via keywords like "may" or "can".

When there is no conditional clause featuring such keyword, doesn't that imply/represent said "otherwise stated" ?
In the case of Slaved Turrets, the two sentences are, other than they are on the same card and thus both applying their effect,  independent statements. 

And lastly:

45 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Gunnery team equipped ships cannot attack the same ship or squad twice... no matter what says they may, can, or even MUST... Cannot takes precedence.

The ruling for AG and GT is necessary because the effect they grant is almost the same. The question is, whether or not the cannot of GT applies, even if you do not use the effect, since the card itself states "cannot ... during that activation" - emphasis on that activation, meaning the activation during which a ship attacked twice from the same hullzone due to the "can"-effect of GT.

Edited July 13, 2018 by R4Pi3R

[Drasnighta 26,832]

::shrug::

 

The question was asked.

Ive given the answer of the designers.

I have no working to show, and thinking you can will drive you insane.

 

Hopefully you’ll get an answer yourself to the question I already asked and you will be satisfied then.

 

 

[R4Pi3R 101]

I'm just trying to wrap my head around it, because the answer you've given would mean, a ship with GT cannot double arc the same target.

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

14 minutes ago, R4Pi3R said:

Ok some questions in the follow-up:

Where is it stated, that the usage of ugrades is optional unless otherwise stated? All optional effects state they are optional via keywords like "may" or "can".

RRG p5 Effect use and timing.

2 minutes ago, R4Pi3R said:

I'm just trying to wrap my head around it, because the answer you've given would mean, a ship with GT cannot double arc the same target.

From the say arc as GT says.

 

Litteraly: "that hull zone cannot target the ship or squadron mora than once during that activation"

Edited July 13, 2018 by ovinomanc3r

[R4Pi3R 101]

Thx for the directions
So the first part is handled by the stated Keywords, "can", "may", "must" and "cannot".

The second one still is in the miss. I understand it as:  I can attack from the same Hullzone, which I could not without GT. If I do so, I cannot attack the same ship or squadron twice.

But as Dras stated:

"Gunnery team equipped ships cannot attack the same ship or squad twice... no matter what says they may, can, or even MUST... Cannot takes precedence."
Considering i wasn't asking about any second attack from the same hullzone, but only whether or not i could attack the same ship by double arcing, having GT equipped, but not resolving the "can"-flagged effect. Getting the above answer- with the hint it was a designer's answer - sounds like i cannot.

[svelok 6,487]

29 minutes ago, R4Pi3R said:

I'm just trying to wrap my head around it, because the answer you've given would mean, a ship with GT cannot double arc the same target.

You can do whatever you want with your second arc. Gunnery Team only prevents you from using the same hull zone to shoot the same target twice.

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

9 minutes ago, R4Pi3R said:

Thx for the directions
So the first part is handled by the stated Keywords, "can", "may", "must" and "cannot".

The second one still is in the miss. I understand it as:  I can attack from the same Hullzone, which I could not without GT. If I do so, I cannot attack the same ship or squadron twice.

But as Dras stated:

"Gunnery team equipped ships cannot attack the same ship or squad twice... no matter what says they may, can, or even MUST... Cannot takes precedence."
Considering i wasn't asking about any second attack from the same hullzone, but only whether or not i could attack the same ship by double arcing, having GT equipped, but not resolving the "can"-flagged effect. Getting the above answer- with the hint it was a designer's answer - sounds like i cannot.

I am not sure if I understood you correctly.

Nothing prevents a ship from attacking the same target more than once.

The rules prevents a shio from attacking from the same hull zone more than once.

GT allows a ship to attack from the same hull zone more than once but prevents from attacking the same target from THAT HULL zone more than once.

AG's FAQ prevents ships from using "you may" from the objective over "you cannot" from the upgrade card (GT and ST)

 

So a ship with GT may shoot twice from different hull zones or from the same hull zone but, no matter if you use GT ot not, that ship cannot target the same ship or squadron FROM THE SAME HULL ZONE.

What that means?

1 Double arcing is allowed as it doesn't break GT's limitation.

2 Ordnance pods over a squadron already attacked cannot be used if they are used from the same hull zone that already attacked it (waiting for further clarification but that's all we have by now with the current rulings).

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

@Drasnighta a bit off-topic but what about Goran? Could it be switched off?

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

ST's restriction is not optional.

 

A couple of points.

First, from an "intention" perspective, compare the wording of ST to Ackbar, from the same expansion:

If the restriction were intended to be optional, like Ackbar's is, it could have been worded like Ackbar:

"Before your Attack Step, you may choose to attack only once this round. 

If you do, you cannot attack more than once this round.  While attacking a ship, add 1 red die to your attack pool."

 

Second, and more relevantly, read the FAQ for Slaved Turrets:

Slaved Turrets applies only to ship attacks.  There is no circumstance in which a hypothetical optional Slaved Turrets would apply if you were attacking squadrons.  If Slaved Turrets' restriction applied only if you opted to use it, there would be no reason to opt to use it if you were attacking squadrons.  So the only case in which this FAQ ruling is ever relevant is if Slaved Turrets is not optional.

[Ginkapo 9,321]

Page 5 RRG

"Resolving an upgrade card effect is optional unless otherwise specified. All other card effects are mandatory unless otherwise specified"

Cannot falls into specified otherwise.

"If a card effect uses the word cannot, that effect is absolute."

Adding one red dice is optional. Shooting only once is not.