Changes from Beta to look for

[Avatar111 553]

9 minutes ago, KveldUlfr said:

What would you do to revise it or create a new system, if I may ask?

to "ultra simplify it" they could write down what each ring does precisely, and make it so that is all you can do.

ie: Fitness:Fire is for these skills; jumping, running, pulling, pushing, breaking

Fitness:Air is for; stealth, balance, falling, landing, evading

etc...

if you really simplify what each ring does for each skills with 1 word (these become the actual "skills" and fitness is just  a category) then its pretty simple.

[AtoMaki 1,431]

4 minutes ago, KveldUlfr said:

What would you do to revise it or create a new system, if I may ask?

Here is the revised Skill/Approach list (ignore the sixth Approaches for now):

When you make a Skill Check you declare intention that determines the Skill. Then the GM picks available Approach Groups (usually one) and you pick an Approach from the available Approach Groups. If your intention is not on the list or you cannot declare intention then you don't make a roll and the outcome is determined by your other attributes. But really, you must have something for everything. Also, the Skills are intentionally kept wide-encompassing and sometimes overlapping to provide maximum utility. 

[AtoMaki 1,431]

11 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

Can you use "air opportunities" on a fitness:Fire check ??

1

Yep! They cost double tho, so you better roll well!

[Avatar111 553]

Just now, AtoMaki said:

Yep! They cost double tho, so you better roll well!

cool! this is great. people are going to say "yeah but you need to wait to see if you have opportunity to see if it works" but then i'm gonna answer; you basically know what amount of opportunity you need before making the roll, so it can be counted as added difficulty.

again. this skill system rocks.

 

4 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Here is the revised Skill/Approach list (ignore the sixth Approaches for now):

When you make a Skill Check you declare intention that determines the Skill. Then the GM picks available Approach Groups (usually one) and you pick an Approach from the available Approach Groups. If your intention is not on the list or you cannot declare intention then you don't make a roll and the outcome is determined by your other attributes. But really, you must have something for everything. Also, the Skills are intentionally kept wide-encompassing and sometimes overlapping to provide maximum utility. 

thats a totally different system from what the game is doing though. they are doing; what do you want to do? here is the skill+ring to do it.

what you propose is basically much more open in what ring you can use, and unless you have a very non power gamer gaming group... its a huge risk of being overly abused.

[llamaman88 430]

got any more awesome charts like that? running the beta cuz my hype got too much when they showed off the beginner game

[BlindSamurai13 275]

1 hour ago, AtoMaki said:

Here is the revised Skill/Approach list (ignore the sixth Approaches for now):

When you make a Skill Check you declare intention that determines the Skill. Then the GM picks available Approach Groups (usually one) and you pick an Approach from the available Approach Groups. If your intention is not on the list or you cannot declare intention then you don't make a roll and the outcome is determined by your other attributes. But really, you must have something for everything. Also, the Skills are intentionally kept wide-encompassing and sometimes overlapping to provide maximum utility. 

Image not found 

[deraforia 169]

6 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

I disagree with that. I think it is always Water. If you play as you say, then all rings are always usable and i don't think that it is the intent...

there is no FEINT in searching for a crevice. there is no WITHSTAND in climbing in one go. there is no OVERWHELM in jumping at it and "try to climb it".

I think you extrapolate waaaay too much. climbing a wall is a Fitness:Move and only Water(shift) does that. Using a rope is a bonus to your check at best. If you want to survey or analyse the wall, see some "crevices" and then get a bonus to your fitness check (if there are crevices), ok.

if you want to use the system as you explain, then I can do Sneaking with fitness:Void because i use special slippers. or sneaking with fitness:Fire because i walk on my hands. that is laughable at best.

basically, for fitness, thats how i see it:

Air: sneaking, sleight of hand

Fire: breaking, pushing/pulling

Water: athletic, acrobatic

Earth: resisting, enduring

EDIT: though to be fair, the system needs a lot of clarification. ie: resisting poison is Fitness:Water (but to me it would be a fitness:Earth check) So yeah... the design is shaky and there is no right or wrong answer. hopefully they can make it a bit clearer in the final product...

A lot happened here while I was at work, but this is primarily the post I want to address. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle here. You can't just pick and choose what ring you want to use for a skill by using flavorful language, it depends on what exactly the point is. Are you climbing a wall to get to the top? Probably just water. Are you sneaking into a castle by climbing the wall? Air. Are you chasing after the enemy? Pretty much always fire, whether it's climbing or on foot. That enemy cut the rope you were using and now you have to hold on to the cliff face for dear life as you slowly make your ascent? Earth.

Let's look at a race. Is it a Sprint? Probably fire. A marathon? Earth. Hurdles? Water. Are you being chased and you want to make your pursuer think you went one way when you went another? Air.

With martial at least it's not as simple as "climb checks are water." Climbing can be pursuing, or sneaking, or holding on for dear life in the midst of a storm. The rings still do pretty specific things, just like for the artisan skill group, but it's not in the way you might assume.

 

[sidescroller 137]

@AtoMaki, neat table! I assume approach still still determines which ring you roll? 

Aside from a different skills list and one different approach (Ignoring the extra ones), does it work pretty much the same as the beta skill system? Sorry if I'm missing something.

[Avatar111 553]

2 hours ago, deraforia said:

A lot happened here while I was at work, but this is primarily the post I want to address. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle here. You can't just pick and choose what ring you want to use for a skill by using flavorful language, it depends on what exactly the point is. Are you climbing a wall to get to the top? Probably just water. Are you sneaking into a castle by climbing the wall? Air. Are you chasing after the enemy? Pretty much always fire, whether it's climbing or on foot. That enemy cut the rope you were using and now you have to hold on to the cliff face for dear life as you slowly make your ascent? Earth.

Let's look at a race. Is it a Sprint? Probably fire. A marathon? Earth. Hurdles? Water. Are you being chased and you want to make your pursuer think you went one way when you went another? Air.

With martial at least it's not as simple as "climb checks are water." Climbing can be pursuing, or sneaking, or holding on for dear life in the midst of a storm. The rings still do pretty specific things, just like for the artisan skill group, but it's not in the way you might assume.

 

i agree, i went a bit too "stiff" and yeah some different situations can make a different ring the go to.

though, i personally feel i will be more comfortable being a bit more "restrictive". otherwise, i feel a player with, lets say, a lot of Air and no Water could be like "well, i'm always climbing stealthily so i will use Air to climb". I know its a bit powergaming and not every players will do that... still, i would rather the check for climbing be default to Water and then use opportunities on dices from another ring maybe to enhance/tweak their checks.

obviously, some of your example are pretty good;

a sprint is fire, a marathon is earth, a hurdle race is water etc. that's all pretty good use of the rings. they are different "things", their own different disciplines in the olympics too  so thats fair game.

it just needs to stay somewhat very specific imo, too much freedom can open too much powergaming opportunities and while i'm not totally against powergaming, i am against finding cheesy way to always use the same ring because you min-maxed it. like, if you want to stealth, its Air. Even if you want to follow someone while being stealthy, I wouldn't use Fire. Sure, you can use additional martial skill opportunities and do an air check but pay double opportunities on your roll to add fire: you complete the task with more haste and gain better ini next round, or water, you move 1 more range band. at this point i would prefer if it was possible to spend opportunities in all rings at double the costs (like what Void does) instead of the current rule that a water check can only buy air or earth opportunities. but we have to see once the game comes out.

being slightly more tight on what each rings can do for each skills needs to define what characters are good or bad at. the more you open that up, the more everybody can do everything and that is detrimental to roleplaying.

[tenchi2a 442]

I see this whole argument as pointless, since the approach/skill system is just a symptom of the larger problem with this edition.

The attempted fusion of two totally different game system into one is the main issue. 

I have been saying from the beginning that 5th should have either been a Genesys system expansion or a R&K update.

They tried IMHO to appease both camps and ended up with a hybrid mess of both.

That said there are many issues with 5th beyond just the approach/skill system.

Like how the Character creation system is nothing more then a fill in the blanks pre-generated character system. 

How the advantages and disadvantage have lost all their flavor and become a forced +1/-1 system.

How Void has been reduced to a reward for failing to overcoming your disadvantage or for making your advantages into disadvantage.

How the system rewards you for power gaming the approach/skill system.

How thinking outside the box or trying to have a more diverse character is punished by the advancement system.

How the writers have forced their view of what a character should be on the GM/players with the Character creation system and advancement system.

How the game forces unwanted  drama on the group with systems like Strife, forced disadvantage, and Ninjō /Giri. All things that should be created from role-playing between the GM and the players not the game.

Before it is brought up, you will notice I did not attack the custom dice here. That is because outside of my feelings that the current system is to hit and miss and doesn't have the flexibility that a numbered dice system has.

I think it worked here to an extent.

Now just to be clear these are IMHO, If you want to know ways I would fix these issues I am more then happy to discuss it, but if you are just out to tell me I'm wrong then don't bother or expect a response.

[AtoMaki 1,431]

9 hours ago, BlindSamurai13 said:

Image not found 

Here is the raw link.

9 hours ago, sidescroller said:

@AtoMaki, neat table! I assume approach still still determines which ring you roll? 

Aside from a different skills list and one different approach (Ignoring the extra ones), does it work pretty much the same as the beta skill system? Sorry if I'm missing something.

Thanks! 

Yes, the Approaches are still tied to their respective Rings, and they mechanically work the same too. There is only the change in how to set up the Skill Check because Skills are determined by the GM here depending on what the character wants to do, and the player picks Approach depending on how the character wants to do it.  

Example 1: The character wants to find the secret hideout of the local crime syndicate - this is the intention the player declares. The GM says that this is Investigation Skill (find an object) with a High Approach, then he secretly establishes how each High Approach would work in this situation and maybe give a few hints to the player. The character was already around the hideout and saw criminals going into the place, so the GM tells the player that the character kinda-sorta remembers this just not the exact place (this would be Recall/Earth). Despite the hint, the player says that the character will roam around the town keeping his eyes and ears open, asking a few people there-and-there, and generally 'Survey the environment for information'. The hideout is well-hidden from curious eyes and people aren't talking, so the GM determines that this would be a TN 4 (Hard) Investigation / Water (Survey) Skill Check. The character fails the check but the player spends the Opportunity to reveal the best Approach and the GM tells him that Recall would be only TN 2 (Challenging). After wasting his whole day looking for the hideout, the character suddenly remembers the criminals buzzing around a certain part and starts to strain his memory over a dish of noodles for more.

Example 2: The character wants to make a daimyo go with a specific plan - again, this is the intention the player declares. There is a little overlap here, so the GM tells the player that this Skill Check can now use either Subtlety (tell the daimyo to go with the plan up-front), Temptation (persuade the daimyo to go with the plan), or Manipulation (change the daimyo's thinking so that he goes with the plan). The player chooses Manipulation and the GM says that he can pick a Martial or Social Approach - essentially the character can go hard or soft on the daimyo (choosing Temptation would only let the player choose a Social Approach). The player decides that the character will go all-out on the daimyo, even breaching Courtesy by being disrespectful but his advice must surely leave an impression. The player Sacrifices 1 Honor to subdue the daimyo, and this Approach catches the lord completely flat-footed, so the GM determines a TN 1 ( Moderate) Manipulation / Void (Sacrifice) Skill Check the player successfully passes.  The daimyo gets all confused by a loud samurai harshly telling him what to do and hastily goes with the plan - whether the cost was worth it might be a topic for a future character monologue. 

[BlindSamurai13 275]

1 hour ago, AtoMaki said:

Here is the raw link.

 

404 error. I guess I'm not meant to see it. lol 

[AtoMaki 1,431]

13 minutes ago, BlindSamurai13 said:

404 error. I guess I'm not meant to see it. lol 

Heh. I have noticed that Google Photos does not work for some people.

Here is a raw paste for everyone who can't reach the link (with the extra Approaches removed):

Skill/Approach Groups	Choose a Skill What Do You Want To Do?	Choose an Approach How Do You Want To Do It?
Artisan	Create visual art. – Aesthetics Treat wounds, sickness, or poisoning. – Medicine Create literature. – Composition Play a game competitively. – Games Do performing art. – Performance Work with architecture or machinery. – Engineering Produce counterfeit item. – Forgery	Refine a basic idea until it becomes perfect. Restore the whole from multiple pieces. Invent an entirely new and original piece. Adapt outside changes and reactions into your work. Attune your work with its environment and function.
Martial	Fight bare-handed. – Unarmed Combat Avoid physical harm. – Defense Use close-quarters arms. – Melee Weapons Physically move yourself or an object. – Athletics Use missile weapons. – Ranged Weapons Direct troops on a battlefield. – Battle Ride a horse. – Horsemanship	Exploit your opponent’s vulnerability or your advantage. Withstand to wear down your opponent. Overwhelm your opponent with a burst of power. Shift a force to work against your opponent or for you. Sacrifice an asset to subdue your opponent.
High	Perceive things that cannot be seen. – Awareness Use natural or formal sciences. – Lore Do official business. – Governorship Look for clues or find objects. – Investigation Contemplate by oneself. – Meditation Use social or human sciences. – Culture Use religious or metaphysical knowledge. – Theology	Analyze a specific thing or detail for information. Recall a piece of information from memory. Theorize possibilities to reveal information. Survey the environment for information. Sense the information instinctually.
Social	Present falsehoods as the truth. – Deception Be honest but non-offensive. – Subtlety Instill fear. – Intimidation Use allure and persuasion. – Temptation Command or lecture others. – Instruction Be polite and respectful. – Etiquette Change another’s attitude or thinking. – Manipulation	Trick another into believing what you want them to believe. Reason with them to act based on logic or common sense. Incite them to act on their emotions and impulses. Charm them to develop positive feelings toward you. Enlighten them to understand a fundamental truth.
Common	Divert attention or avoid detection. – Stealth Create utilitarian objects. – Craft Secure or unsecure something. – Security Do mercantile business. – Commerce Live or travel in the wilderness. – Hunting Command or tend an animal. – Animal Handling Operate a seafaring vehicle. – Sailing	Con someone and get something for nothing. Produce what you need through labor. Innovate a new way to get what you need. Exchange one thing for another. Subsist with whatever you have at hand.

[BlindSamurai13 275]

41 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Heh. I have noticed that Google Photos does not work for some people.

Here is a raw paste for everyone who can't reach the link (with the extra Approaches removed):

Skill/Approach Groups	Choose a Skill What Do You Want To Do?	Choose an Approach How Do You Want To Do It?
Artisan	Create visual art. – Aesthetics Treat wounds, sickness, or poisoning. – Medicine Create literature. – Composition Play a game competitively. – Games Do performing art. – Performance Work with architecture or machinery. – Engineering Produce counterfeit item. – Forgery	Refine a basic idea until it becomes perfect. Restore the whole from multiple pieces. Invent an entirely new and original piece. Adapt outside changes and reactions into your work. Attune your work with its environment and function.
Martial	Fight bare-handed. – Unarmed Combat Avoid physical harm. – Defense Use close-quarters arms. – Melee Weapons Physically move yourself or an object. – Athletics Use missile weapons. – Ranged Weapons Direct troops on a battlefield. – Battle Ride a horse. – Horsemanship	Exploit your opponent’s vulnerability or your advantage. Withstand to wear down your opponent. Overwhelm your opponent with a burst of power. Shift a force to work against your opponent or for you. Sacrifice an asset to subdue your opponent.
High	Perceive things that cannot be seen. – Awareness Use natural or formal sciences. – Lore Do official business. – Governorship Look for clues or find objects. – Investigation Contemplate by oneself. – Meditation Use social or human sciences. – Culture Use religious or metaphysical knowledge. – Theology	Analyze a specific thing or detail for information. Recall a piece of information from memory. Theorize possibilities to reveal information. Survey the environment for information. Sense the information instinctually.
Social	Present falsehoods as the truth. – Deception Be honest but non-offensive. – Subtlety Instill fear. – Intimidation Use allure and persuasion. – Temptation Command or lecture others. – Instruction Be polite and respectful. – Etiquette Change another’s attitude or thinking. – Manipulation	Trick another into believing what you want them to believe. Reason with them to act based on logic or common sense. Incite them to act on their emotions and impulses. Charm them to develop positive feelings toward you. Enlighten them to understand a fundamental truth.
Common	Divert attention or avoid detection. – Stealth Create utilitarian objects. – Craft Secure or unsecure something. – Security Do mercantile business. – Commerce Live or travel in the wilderness. – Hunting Command or tend an animal. – Animal Handling Operate a seafaring vehicle. – Sailing	Con someone and get something for nothing. Produce what you need through labor. Innovate a new way to get what you need. Exchange one thing for another. Subsist with whatever you have at hand.

Yay, I can see it!  

[Avatar111 553]

the system you propose is way more obscure and broken than the current one in the beta. with half the approach making no sense for the skills by either being redundant or straight out illogical. good thing you ain't a designer.

Edited July 26, 2018 by Avatar111

[AtoMaki 1,431]

2 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

the system you propose is way more obscure and broken than the current one. with half the approach making no sense for the skills by either being redundant or straight out illogical. good thing you ain't a designer.

It is definitely not for the D&D crowd, I can tell you that much  !

[KveldUlfr 75]

10 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

It is definitely not for the D&D crowd, I can tell you that much  !

It's interesting. I think it may be a little too far granulated for my taste with the current system - however, I would be the kind of person to provide some subskills as an option for campaign focus.

Were you to use this list, you might need to provide some extra points for skills (or not if your intention is to provide more niche protection for some skills versus others). 35 skills versus 24 is a significant increase, and since yours are less sub-skills than skill replacements, you'd probably need to tweak a few other things.

From my point, I actually like the current skill system.
Were I doing a particularly courtly game, I might separate Courtesy into sub-skills, or Aesthetics, etc. I also love they take that into account.

My only issue with the new skill system is the approaches as middle men to skill groups. I feel giving a couple keywords to the rings and using those would probably work just fine (Sort of like shown on the beginner character sheet). But we will see when the main book releases.

[Avatar111 553]

3 minutes ago, KveldUlfr said:

It's interesting. I think it may be a little too far granulated for my taste with the current system - however, I would be the kind of person to provide some subskills as an option for campaign focus.

Were you to use this list, you might need to provide some extra points for skills (or not if your intention is to provide more niche protection for some skills versus others). 35 skills versus 24 is a significant increase, and since yours are less sub-skills than skill replacements, you'd probably need to tweak a few other things.

From my point, I actually like the current skill system.
Were I doing a particularly courtly game, I might separate Courtesy into sub-skills, or Aesthetics, etc. I also love they take that into account.

My only issue with the new skill system is the approaches as middle men to skill groups. I feel giving a couple keywords to the rings and using those would probably work just fine (Sort of like shown on the beginner character sheet). But we will see when the main book releases.

my view exactly. the "approach" as a middle step is just not working out.  a couple of keywords in each skill sections for each rings is all you really need. MOST of the time. like, if you look at fitness, and earth ring, they give you some description of what it can do and to me thats all i really need. the approaches are more confusing fluff than anything else.

sure.. i can understand using approach if you want to use Smithing with an approach from a different group like "scholar" to know the melting point of steel... but these things to me are niche are should be use only in narrative moments.

[AtoMaki 1,431]

43 minutes ago, KveldUlfr said:

Were you to use this list, you might need to provide some extra points for skills (or not if your intention is to provide more niche protection for some skills versus others). 35 skills versus 24 is a significant increase, and since yours are less sub-skills than skill replacements, you'd probably need to tweak a few other things.

1

Well, there are a great many other things too, but only the change of the Skill list relates to Approaches. 

And I guess this comes down to personal preferences. The "classic" way of rigid Skill + Ring pairings is obviously simpler than the narrative roll setup I proposed, but I kinda reached the point where "I attack with my sword, let's roll Kenjutsu + Agility as always" no longer satisfies my roleplaying needs  . 

[Avatar111 553]

6 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Well, there are a great many other things too, but only the change of the Skill list relates to Approaches. 

And I guess this comes down to personal preferences. The "classic" way of rigid Skill + Ring pairings is obviously simpler than the narrative roll setup I proposed, but I kinda reached the point where "I attack with my sword, let's roll Kenjutsu + Agility as always" no longer satisfies my roleplaying needs  . 

for the attacks, you still can roll different rings i think, depending on your stance. and, there is all the different opportunities you can take also, even some from different rings at double costs. it satisfy my needs!

Edited July 26, 2018 by Avatar111

[KveldUlfr 75]

46 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Well, there are a great many other things too, but only the change of the Skill list relates to Approaches. 

And I guess this comes down to personal preferences. The "classic" way of rigid Skill + Ring pairings is obviously simpler than the narrative roll setup I proposed, but I kinda reached the point where "I attack with my sword, let's roll Kenjutsu + Agility as always" no longer satisfies my roleplaying needs  . 

Same, which is why I like the approaches and skills... But I like 5 approaches(rings) and 24 skills; not 5 rings and 25 approaches and 24 skills.
So, I am anxious to see the new book. Sooooooooon.

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

2 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

It is definitely not for the D&D crowd, I can tell you that much  !

Good point.

The "what are you doing?" followed by "how are you doing it?" is very reminiscent of 7th Sea 2nd edition, and I've had a fair few D&D players that couldn't wrap their heads around 7thSea2e's rather loose take on how your Hero defines their Approach to a challenge, and thus not able to grasp that a Hero could use the equivalent of that system's Charisma stat to help climb the central spire of the Villain's private estate, or using its equivalent of Intelligence to verbally best an antagonist in a Renaissance-era version of a poetry slam, or using the Wisdom equivalent to avoid getting burned while escaping unscathed from a burning building.

Then again, 7thSea2e is quite a bit looser on the justification than most RPGs for which Trait and Skill you use to determine the Approach, with the lead designer himself having said that if the player and GM can come up with a good narrative reason why an oddball combo would work in the current situation, then go with it.

[KveldUlfr 75]

1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Good point.

The "what are you doing?" followed by "how are you doing it?" is very reminiscent of 7th Sea 2nd edition, and I've had a fair few D&D players that couldn't wrap their heads around 7thSea2e's rather loose take on how your Hero defines their Approach to a challenge, and thus not able to grasp that a Hero could use the equivalent of that system's Charisma stat to help climb the central spire of the Villain's private estate, or using its equivalent of Intelligence to verbally best an antagonist in a Renaissance-era version of a poetry slam, or using the Wisdom equivalent to avoid getting burned while escaping unscathed from a burning building.

Then again, 7thSea2e is quite a bit looser on the justification than most RPGs for which Trait and Skill you use to determine the Approach, with the lead designer himself having said that if the player and GM can come up with a good narrative reason why an oddball combo would work in the current situation, then go with it.

Pretty much this. It took my players a couple sessions, but we've been playing 7th2E for almost 2 years now, and my players enjoy approaches now. Another reason I think they will enjoy 5th.

[M4S-_-T3R 5]

With the right group of players and a good GM who understands how approaches enrich outcomes/narrative of the game; there is the potential for a really fun game here(assuming some other things are fixed).

My beta group weren't those players and I was still learning the best way to use the approach/skill  system. Still, if I was running the starter set I'd probably white out the approaches on the sheet and write in "describe how your character goes about using their skill" or something along those lines.

We still had a lot of fun; just ran into a few speedbumps and I think some players just wanted to see who could do the most damage, probably the wrong game for that mentality.

[M4S-_-T3R 5]

I also hope they somehow address the multitude of tables needed to play the game. It was to the point where myself and others compiled master list tables and handed them out to players. Things to spend opportunities on was the main culprit; at least include some reference materials or something.