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ViscerothSWG

Why is the k-turn all or nothing?

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Just now, Lace Jetstreamer said:

So the game is perfect without bugs in your opinion?  FFG will never need to release updates to their rules to fix bugs I guess?

Ah, now that's going off topic because we have very narrow field in this topic. Your aim was k-turns being red, not that the game has bugs that might be of issue. 

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1 minute ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

So the game is perfect without bugs in your opinion?  FFG will never need to release updates to their rules to fix bugs I guess?

 

to a fundamental game mechanic? its happened once in the history of the game and if it was going to happen to blue moves in 2.0 then i would have been before the rulebook came out.

i think blues are balanced in the wider context of the game, if you truly feel they are broken you should just figure out the best way to abuse them in a list and go win worlds. 

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6 minutes ago, Infinite_Maelstrom said:

Internet needs a way to convey tone of voice - I really doubt any of the people posting here are all that worried which is the better method of performing K-turns, and it just looks like we're getting really defensive about it.

No, I think for most people here the minor points of this game are absolutely the single most important thing in the entire world.  Personally, if North Korea were to fire a nuke directly at my town during the middle of a game, I'd be just fine with getting vaporized as long as it didn't alter the positions of any of my ships.

Edited by JJ48

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2 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

No, I think for most people here the minor points of this game are absolutely the single most important thing in the entire world.  If North Korea were to fire a nuke directly at my town during the middle of a game, I'd be just fine with getting vaporized as long as it didn't alter the positions of any of my ships.

It might end up actually sending them to space - which could be considered a good thing*

*From a certain point of view

Edited by Infinite_Maelstrom
Defender of the Empire

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6 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

There should be no stress for a k-turn on a  bump.  Unless all bumps result in stress.

The kturn doesnt cause stress, the red maneuver causes stress.

Defenders dont get stressed on a failed kturn. Ello Atsy does not get stress from a failed tallon roll. By your logic, Quickdraw could just do a hard 1, bump and not get stressed? He has adv optics and FCS, so now he can self bump to open up his entire dial? That wont get abused ?

 

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18 hours ago, ViscerothSWG said:

Something that always bugged me with regard to maneuvers in x-wing is the all-or-nothing aspect of the k-turn. 

 

It'd make the k-turn more dynamic and thematic. Can we get that in x-wing 3.0 or a future rule revision, please?

 

I think it's modelled after the Immelmann turn (which was in Wings of War) , you fly straight and do a U turn right at the end to end up to where you were. It's actually more complicated than that due to the fact there's no gravity in space so while you are pushing forward you will be spinning as well, but there's that.

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2 hours ago, spacelion said:

 

I think it's modelled after the Immelmann turn (which was in Wings of War) , you fly straight and do a U turn right at the end to end up to where you were. It's actually more complicated than that due to the fact there's no gravity in space so while you are pushing forward you will be spinning as well, but there's that.

Yeah, we covered this a few pages back. K-Turn is an (ORIGINAL, not modern) Immelmann/Wing-Over/Rudder Turn (Poe appears to execute one in the opening battle of TLJ). T-Roll seems to be a lag roll. S-Loop is a bit harder to find a real-world comparison.

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17 minutes ago, ViscerothSWG said:

The 2d play on the gameboard looks and feels much more like that Vader video.

No it doesn't. The k-turn plays out on the board as a ship going straight forward until right at the end they stop forward motion and rotate 180 degrees. That's the wing-over (thanks to all you well informed chaps for teaching me the term). 

The 'feel' you have seems backwards. It seems like you've arbitrarily decided what it 'actually' looks like and now want the mechanics to change to fit what you've made up in your head. Your image of the maneuver should be informed by the existing game mechanics, not the other way around. When the mechanic is that an interrupted k-turn leaves you still facing forward, that should inform you that the maneuver is the same too - forward until the very end of the maneuver. 

Just stop, dude. Nobody agrees with you in terms of the fluff the maneuver is supposed to represent or that the mechanical change to gameplay would be good. 

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6 minutes ago, ViscerothSWG said:

Oh no, nobody agrees with me. /feelsbadman.jpg

I want the maneuver to be given more leeway to the initiating party on a bump, and you don't. Your opinion might presently be more popular, but it's just an opinion. It's no more correct than mine.

No, he's stating facts about how the maneuver works.

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15 minutes ago, Ambaryerno said:

Uh, yeah, it is. Because how it currently works is WHY your proposal is wrong.

A proposal for changing how something currently works can't be wrong when you claim the reason it is wrong is because it currently works the way it currently works.

It also cant be wrong because it is a new idea. When people thought up mobile arcs back before there were mobile arcs did you tell them they were wrong because turrets worked in 360degrees and had an 80degree primary arc? When people said the phantom decloak was too powerful, did you fly 86pt whisper and tell them they were wrong because it wins games? 

You dont want k-turns to change. I get it. Good for you. Just #walkaway. 

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13 minutes ago, Ambaryerno said:

Uh, yeah, it is. Because how it currently works is WHY your proposal is wrong.

That seems a bit strong and unwarranted, because he does have a point.  We got onto a discussion of what sort of maneuver a K-Turn represents, whereas the OP is talking about what sort of maneuver he'd like the K-Turn to represent.  As we've already seen with the Immelmann Turn, it's possible for the same name to be applied to a new maneuver.  While I personally don't like the proposed mechanics, we should have better arguments than "it's different from how it is now".

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8 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

@ViscerothSWG I have seen multiple concerns raised about possible gameplay exploits using your suggested change to K-turns, but no response from you on the subject. As you are the originator of this idea, could I get you to comment on these gameplay problems?

I already agreed it could get fiddley in an earlier post. Changing the direction on a bump was the whole point. I disagree with it leading to mechanic abuse. It'd be as abusive as any other mechanic currently in game., and just as hard to consistently purposely set up. It might reduce the desire to add engine upgrade to everything though. You could add a die roll a la hyperspace entry in the new core set to determine if you rotate clockwise or counterclockwise to reduce abuse.

It's a concept I would like to see in game. How to get it to a usable form, I don't quote know. But it certainly could be called something other than a k-turn yet be activated by that same maneuver icon on a ship's dial. Added as an option with a mod perhaps. Then you could add a point cost to it for balance and limit which ships get it.

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2 hours ago, ViscerothSWG said:

I already agreed it could get fiddley in an earlier post. Changing the direction on a bump was the whole point. I disagree with it leading to mechanic abuse. It'd be as abusive as any other mechanic currently in game., and just as hard to consistently purposely set up. It might reduce the desire to add engine upgrade to everything though. You could add a die roll a la hyperspace entry in the new core set to determine if you rotate clockwise or counterclockwise to reduce abuse.

It's a concept I would like to see in game. How to get it to a usable form, I don't quote know. But it certainly could be called something other than a k-turn yet be activated by that same maneuver icon on a ship's dial. Added as an option with a mod perhaps. Then you could add a point cost to it for balance and limit which ships get it.

Thank you for answering. 

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16 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

And why do they not punish you for getting blocked on a blue move?  The rules need to be consistent.  Blue moves are still rewarded for bad flying.

Stress is still removed because one of the key reasons for dialing in a blue (green) maneuver is to remove stress, first and foremost.  If Blue maneuvers didn’t remove stress when blocked, then you could end up in situations where certain ships are 100% ****** no matter what they try to do, for several turns in a row.  

Case in point, the B-Wing.  It’s dial is arguably one of the worst in the game in terms of number of red maneuvers, and it only gets a limited assortment of white and blue.  Even in v1 you could have issues where a B-Wing gets blocked by a large ship, and it’s only option is to power past the large base on a 3 or 4 speed maneuver.  If bumping while performing a Blue maneuver didn’t remove stress, then the B-Wing’s dial would come with the threat of being stressed and blocked by a large base at a 45-degree angle, and getting stuck permanently so long as the large ship kept purposely bumping the B-Wing (hard turn).

Edited by It’s One Of Ours

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10 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

If Blue maneuvers didn’t remove stress when blocked, then you could end up in situations where certain ships are 100% ****** no matter what they try to do, for several turns in a row.  

Did you ever hear the tragedy of Oicunn + Ion Projector + Palp?

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Once you actually understand what the k-turn represents in-universe (essentially a half-loop combined with a aileron roll), that would be the opposite of thematic, and equally fiddly. 

220px-Immelmann_turn.svg.png

Yes k-turn bumps are punishing. But k-turns are extremely powerful maneuvers in a game about lining up firing arcs where most ships can only turn a max of 90 degrees, and if the game is going to be about skill, then punishment for botched (or foiled) maneuvers needs to be equal to the reward. 

Edited by Tvboy

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On 7/12/2018 at 4:31 PM, ViscerothSWG said:

When you k-turn you continue in a straight line for the entire length of the maneuver, then when you reach the end point your pilot pushes a button and stops all momentum while fully rotating 180 degrees. 

 

Not sure if it was the first mention of the K-Turn, but in the first Thrawn novel Luke performs one with (iirc) a Skipray Blastboat. He speeds up and then literally kicks the nose down at  the last second, dis- and then reengaging the engine to turn around on the spot horizontally, just losing altitude. 

Basically, it truly is (was? You know, what with the canon change) that all-or-nothing- maneuvre that stops your momentum at the end of a line if you ignore the Z-Axis (as X-Wing does). Which is also why there is just one ship that doesn't stress the pilot beyond belief when pulling it off. 

But getting back to in-game- I actually love the K-Turn because it's all or nothing. You have to gamble on you reading the battlefield right in order to stay on target and save a turn or two turning around normally. 

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