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Why is the k-turn all or nothing?

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Just now, gennataos said:

I sometimes wish all of the internet game designers would just...I don't know...leave.  Play the game or don't  Make your own game.  Just stop cluttering the forum with crap like this.

Or even just playtest your changes across a variety of lists before posting them.  Theory crafting is all well and good, but it leaves unseen bugs 100% of the time.

Just now, gennataos said:

Oh, double post!  Oops!

Threads like this are the worst. 

Should've gone for the triple...……...

I rate it a 6/10.

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Just now, Do I need a Username said:

Or even just playtest your changes across a variety of lists before posting them.  Theory crafting is all well and good, but it leaves unseen bugs 100% of the time.

You are expecting the community to do more than the developers of the game.

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11 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

A red move is being quadly punished:

  • Can't go full distance of move
  • Can't turn 90' or 180'
  • Can't do an action (b/c of bump)
  • Gets a red token

White move is doubly punished

  • Can't go full distance
  • Can't take an action

Blue move is doubly punished but also REWARDED

  • Can't go full distance
  • Can't take an action
  • But STILL gets to remove a red token

One of these things is not like the others.

 

that is because one of these things is a colossal tactical mistake. if you are dialling in a red maneuver in a position where there is a reasonable risk of being blocked then you deserve to take the stress. 

why should you get to put in a 180 degree turn and then not be punished when you chose wrong?

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1 minute ago, RynoZero said:

 

that is because one of these things is a colossal tactical mistake. if you are dialling in a red maneuver in a position where there is a reasonable risk of being blocked then you deserve to take the stress. 

why should you get to put in a 180 degree turn and then not be punished when you chose wrong?

BuT My ReY Shouldn't Be Punished FoR PlAyInG ThE GaMe BaDlY! It'S JuSt NoT FaIR!

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1 minute ago, RynoZero said:

why should you get to put in a 180 degree turn and then not be punished when you chose wrong?

You are punished by not being able to rotate 90' and 180'.  By adding the red token, you are being doubly punished when compared to a white move.  The blue move is still rewarded with clearing a stress.

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2 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

You are punished by not being able to rotate 90' and 180'.  By adding the red token, you are being doubly punished when compared to a white move.  The blue move is still rewarded with clearing a stress.

You are being doubly punished for playing doubly bad.  Seems fine.  If you think you might be blocked, do a white or green move so you don't have to be stressed and its all fine.  If you want the reward, you have to take the risk.

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Just now, Lace Jetstreamer said:

You are punished by not being able to rotate 90' and 180'.  By adding the red token, you are being doubly punished when compared to a white move.  The blue move is still rewarded with clearing a stress.

 

correct, your being doubly punished for making a doubly bad decision.

this is a technique the game developers have at their disposal to help you make correct decisions, they are pushing you so hard because the choice you made to try and turn where you can be blocked is wrong.  

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1 minute ago, RynoZero said:

this is a technique the game developers have at their disposal to help you make correct decisions, they are pushing you so hard because the choice you made to try and turn where you can be blocked is wrong.  

And why do they not punish you for getting blocked on a blue move?  The rules need to be consistent.  Blue moves are still rewarded for bad flying.

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Just now, Lace Jetstreamer said:

And why do they not punish you for getting blocked on a blue move?  The rules need to be consistent.  Blue moves are still rewarded for bad flying.

But... they do. You just said so on the last page. They don't get their action. 

K-Turns are a riskier move, hence it's worse when they get blocked. But all moves are still punished for bumping

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2 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

And why do they not punish you for getting blocked on a blue move?  The rules need to be consistent.  Blue moves are still rewarded for bad flying.

It's not bad flying. You saw the block was very likely, perhaps even unavoidable, and thus chose the best move for the situation (ie. One that got you something positive). That's what we call good flying. 

Edited by DR4CO

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Just now, Kieransi said:

But... they do. You just said so on the last page. They don't get their action. 

K-Turns are a riskier move, hence it's worse when they get blocked. But all moves are still punished for bumping

Blue and white get the same punishment.  There is NO difference in punishment between white and blue.  That is what is being inconsistent.

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1 minute ago, DR4CO said:

It's not bad flying. You saw the block was very likely, perhaps even unavoidable, and thus chose the best move for the situation (ie. One that got you something positive). That's what we call good flying. 

Its almost like properly analyzing your situation and mitigating risk is a viable tactic...

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Just now, DR4CO said:

It's not bad flying. You saw the block was very likely, perhaps even unavoidable, and thus chose the best move for the situation (ie. One that got you something positive). That's what we call good flying. 

Good flying is choosing a move that you can complete.  Bad flying is where you bump.  That is the entire point of this discussion.

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Just now, Lace Jetstreamer said:

And why do they not punish you for getting blocked on a blue move?  The rules need to be consistent.  Blue moves are still rewarded for bad flying.

 

if you as stressed and dialling in a blue move you are punished because your opponent can reasonably guess you will be in one of a limited number of locations and can commit his ships more effectively to be where they can murder you. if he has blocked you, then even better because he know exactly where you will be with no chance of re-positioning with actions. 

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Just now, RynoZero said:

 

if you as stressed and dialling in a blue move you are punished because your opponent can reasonably guess you will be in one of a limited number of locations and can commit his ships more effectively to be where they can murder you. if he has blocked you, then even better because he know exactly where you will be with no chance of re-positioning with actions. 

This is only true because BLUE moves always result in clearing stress.  If Blue Moves DID NOT always result in clearing stress, their move is MUCH LESS predictable.

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1 minute ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Blue and white get the same punishment.  There is NO difference in punishment between white and blue.  That is what is being inconsistent.

Blue, white, and red all get the SAME punishment. Losing their actions and not ending up where they wanted to. 

red has the ADDITIONAL punishment of stress, blue had the ADDITIONAL benefit of losing stress. That's UNRELATED to bumping, it's the standard effect of the color maneuvers because blue maneuvers are simpler and red maneuvers are more complex. That's a core game mechanic nobody has questioned for 5 years

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1 minute ago, Kieransi said:

red has the ADDITIONAL punishment of stress, blue had the ADDITIONAL benefit of losing stress. That's UNRELATED to bumping, it's the standard effect of the color maneuvers because blue maneuvers are simpler and red maneuvers are more complex. That's a core game mechanic nobody has questioned for 5 years

Citation needed on that.  Obviously, people are QUESTIONING it in this thread.  It obviously doesn't make sense to OP and myself.  I always thought this 'core' mechanic didn't make sense like  A LOT of broken things in 1.0.  FFG has done a good job fixing many problems so far.  This is just another one.  You seem to be like the many people in 1.0 who thought nothing was wrong w/ turrets, range bonuses, cloaking, etc.  That is fine.  You are free to belive there are no problems.  However, there are people who think this is a problem.  And we are voicing are concerns.

2.0 is all about improving the game.  Its my hope that FFG can continue to fix the many bugs including this one.

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... 

I have no interest in playing a game of X-Wing where all maneuvers are white maneuvers and there's no consequences for dialing in a great maneuver like a K-Turn versus dialing in a simple 1-straight. 

I'm out. Have fun continuing to be wrong. 

giphy.gif

Edited by Kieransi

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1 minute ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

This is just another one.

In your opinion. Of course, you're entitled to it. We're also entitled to our opinion that you are wrong in your inconceivable interpretation of risk/reward.

2 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Its my hope that FFG can continue to fix the many bugs including this one.

The rules are out, and this is not a bug in their opinion. It's a feature. Enjoy.

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19 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

You are punished by not being able to rotate 90' and 180'.  By adding the red token, you are being doubly punished when compared to a white move.  The blue move is still rewarded with clearing a stress.

You're talking about two different things.  Your punishment for bumping is failing to reach your destination and losing your action, regardless of what color it is.  The color of the move causes you to gain/lose a stress regardless of whether you bump.

If a ship had a blue K-Turn, you still wouldn't be able to rotate it on a bump, but it would still clear a stress.

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1 minute ago, LagJanson said:

The rules are out, and this is not a bug in their opinion. It's a feature. Enjoy.

So the game is perfect without bugs in your opinion?  FFG will never need to release updates to their rules to fix bugs I guess?

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13 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Good flying is choosing a move that you can complete.  Bad flying is where you bump.  That is the entire point of this discussion.

Not to lean on an overused meme, but:

amazing-every-word.jpg

Good flying is picking the best move for the situation at hand.

Often that means avoiding a bump. But sometimes that means accepting you'll likely bump, sometimes it means bumping deliberately, and sometimes it means jumping across or even onto an obstacle. Whatever is needed to win the game. 

Edited by DR4CO

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14 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Good flying is choosing a move that you can complete.  Bad flying is where you bump.  That is the entire point of this discussion.

Bumps can be very useful in plenty of situations - sometimes even if they were unintended.

I think that the results of bumping for different manoeuvres are consistent - getting steadily worse for each difficulty of manoeuvre:

For blue manoeuvres, there is a net one disadvantage when bumped (cant complete move, lose action, but lose stress)
For white, there are twice that many disadvantages (cant complete move, lose action)
For red 180's, there are twice as many again (cant complete move, lose action, gain stress, don't rotate)

 

 

Internet needs a way to convey tone of voice - I really doubt any of the people posting here are all that worried which is the better method of performing K-turns, and it just looks like we're getting really defensive about it.

 

Edited by Infinite_Maelstrom
Defender of the Empire

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Just now, Lace Jetstreamer said:

So the game is perfect without bugs in your opinion?  FFG will never need to release updates to their rules to fix bugs I guess?

Fix bugs?  Most certainly.

"Fix" core game mechanics that much of the game revolves around?  Considerably less likely.

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