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ViscerothSWG

Why is the k-turn all or nothing?

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3 hours ago, Jo Jo said:

Yeah, I agree that it would be way to hard to implement. What would be cool is a pilot talent that allowed you to complete a Koiogran turn even if you bump for an additional stress.

I'd say that's a steep price for a pilot talent. Compared to Ryads KTurn abuse :D

I'd ditch the second stress part and then I really like this idea. We invent a fair few and that never occurred to us at all.

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1 hour ago, UnitOmega said:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Koiogran_turn

K-turns and sloops are abbreviations we made up because nobody wants to try and pronounce names like "Koiogran" in the middle of a match. 

Trying to find a real-world basis for the S-Loop. The T-Roll sounds like a High Yo-Yo (and could probably work for a low-Yo as well).

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22 minutes ago, Ambaryerno said:

Trying to find a real-world basis for the S-Loop. The T-Roll sounds like a High Yo-Yo (and could probably work for a low-Yo as well).

It's basically just a K-Turn that's not in a straight line, isn't it?

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Image result for tallon roll

Judging by the graphic and description it sounds more like a Barrel Roll attack, you're doing a 3D looping maneuver to cut in tighter than just a breaking turn. 

I don't know if there's a good actual reference to the Segnor's Loop, it's such a throw-away maneuver name which was mentioned like once, it happens to suit FFGs need for another 180 maneuver, you just move away then loop back (what kind of loop? who knows) to pass through the same space. 

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8 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

Image result for tallon roll

Judging by the graphic and description it sounds more like a Barrel Roll attack, you're doing a 3D looping maneuver to cut in tighter than just a breaking turn. 

I don't know if there's a good actual reference to the Segnor's Loop, it's such a throw-away maneuver name which was mentioned like once, it happens to suit FFGs need for another 180 maneuver, you just move away then loop back (what kind of loop? who knows) to pass through the same space. 

Ah, so the T-Roll is more of a lag roll.

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13 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

There should be no stress for a k-turn on a  bump.  Unless all bumps result in stress.

Try going from full speed to fully stopped in an instant.  It's pretty stressful.  conversely, going from cruising speed to stopped in an instant is pretty easy.

Also important: Game Design >>>>>> Theme, and the ability to fail a K-turn without the stress punishment is super bad for balance, and the ability to cause people a stress on a bump is also super bad.

Edited by Do I need a Username

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3 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:

Try going from full speed to fully stopped in an instant.  It's pretty stressful.  conversely, going from cruising speed to stopped in an instant is pretty easy.

Also important: Game Design >>>>>> Theme, and the ability to fail a K-turn without the stress punishment is super bad for balance, and the ability to cause people a stress on a bump is also super bad.

Say you do a 4-k turn and bump.  Got it, if the argument is its stressful to stop early.  Then also doing a 4 straight should be JUST as stressful on a bump.

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10 hours ago, ViscerothSWG said:

It would feel more realistic if when you bump and can't complete the full k-turn maneuver that you should rotate the ship to a degree relative to the distance across the template you traversed before bumping, and be given the option to make that rotation either clockwise or counterclockwise at your discretion.

Would it really?  I mean, you should point the ship down (at varying angles) theoretically, not sideways. But it's a two-dimensional game, not a three dimensional one.

Let's be realistic:  The game can't be completely realistic. 

The current way the K-Turn works is "gamey" because it has to be. X-Wing is a game, limited by certain spacial constraints. The game rewards good flying choices and punishes bad ones.  Bumping during a K-Turn is a bad flight choice, so you receive the (theoretically) negative game outcome.

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2 minutes ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

The current way the K-Turn works is "gamey" because it has to be. X-Wing is a game, limited by certain spacial constraints. The game rewards good flying choices and punishes bad ones.  Bumping during a K-Turn is a bad flight choice, so you receive the (theoretically) negative game outcome.

Bumping means you don't get an action.  With a k-turn you are more harshly punished for bumping then a normal move by not being able to do the rotation plus also getting a stress.  That doesn't seem consistent with how other manuevers are treated when they bump.  Imagine if a blue maneuver didn't clear a stress if you bumped for instance.

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18 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Bumping means you don't get an action.  With a k-turn you are more harshly punished for bumping then a normal move by not being able to do the rotation plus also getting a stress.  That doesn't seem consistent with how other manuevers are treated when they bump.  Imagine if a blue maneuver didn't clear a stress if you bumped for instance.

Not the same.  A K-turn is high rick / high reward.  A blue maneuver is low risk / low reward (you get back to the default game state) and White maneuver is medium risk / medium reward.  getting punished more harshly on a red maneuver is the point.

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22 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Bumping means you don't get an action.  With a k-turn you are more harshly punished for bumping then a normal move by not being able to do the rotation plus also getting a stress.  That doesn't seem consistent with how other manuevers are treated when they bump.  Imagine if a blue maneuver didn't clear a stress if you bumped for instance.

If you fail a red bank or turn and bump, you still get a stress. 

Higher risk, higher reward.

Also, higher cost of failure.

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3 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:

Not the same.  A K-turn is high rick / high reward.  A blue maneuver is low risk / low reward (you get back to the default game state) and White maneuver is medium risk / medium reward.  getting punished more harshly on a red maneuver is the point.

K-Turn is not High Reward.  A high reward would be no stress token at all.

Risk and Reward do not make any sense in this context.

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1 minute ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

K-Turn is not High Reward.  A high reward would be no stress token at all.

Risk and Reward do not make any sense in this context.

The risk is that you bump, and end up facing the wrong way with a stress token.  The reward is you get to turn around and shoot the enemy's ships (potentially without the ability for them to shoot you back).  High risk / High reward.  Stuff like this is why the Millennium Falcon title (HOTR) and Servomotor S-foils turns are so powerful (and to the same extent the defenders 4K and JM5Ks white sloop).  The ability to ignore the risk, but gain the reward.

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7 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:

The risk is that you bump, and end up facing the wrong way with a stress token.  The reward is you get to turn around and shoot the enemy's ships (potentially without the ability for them to shoot you back).  High risk / High reward.  Stuff like this is why the Millennium Falcon title (HOTR) and Servomotor S-foils turns are so powerful (and to the same extent the defenders 4K and JM5Ks white sloop).  The ability to ignore the risk, but gain the reward.

Stress tokens are now known as rewards.  LOL

Edited by Lace Jetstreamer

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Just now, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Stress tokens are now known as rewards.  LOL

Not my point, not my point at all.  Stress tokens are the risk element, in that you can't fix your maneuver.  The reward is turning around and getting an uncontested shot.  The part about the titles and whatnot is their ability to attempt the Kturn / sloop and not get a stress if they fail.  They can still gain the reward (Turning around) but avoid the risk (Facing the wrong way without the ability to turn around).

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Move difficulty has nothing to do with risk/reward

  • Blue moves are easy difficulty
  • White moves are medium difficulty
  • Red moves are high difficulty

Completing these moves in my opinion should result in the following.

  • Blue moves should remove a stress token (if you can't complete the move, you shouldn't be able to remove a stress)
  • White doesn't give any bonuses
  • Red gives a stress as its the BALANCE to completing a hard move.

If the ship cannot complete the move, the ship should not get the bonuses or CONSEQUENCES (red tokens).  This is called consistency in gameplay.  Good games are consistent and bad ones are not.

Saying that red moves give a stress regardless if the move is completed or not BECAUSE the ship is already punished for not being able to actually do the thing that gives it a stress token.  Likewise, if a blue move isn't completed, it should not be granted a removal of a stress because it did not complete its move.  

Basically, the game is punishing red moves inconsistently compared to all other move difficulties.  Its not consistent and is bad game design.

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My viewpoint is that the K-Turn, S-Loop, and T-Roll maneuvers are all risk-reward ventures.  The reward is turning around 180-degrees (135 for S-Loop).  Without upgrades, most ships cannot do this within 1 maneuver and action phase.  The risk with these maneuvers is they usually come with a stress token, and are more susceptible to blocking; which can potentially fubar your maneuvers for two turns.

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7 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

My viewpoint is that the K-Turn, S-Loop, and T-Roll maneuvers are all risk-reward ventures.  The reward is turning around 180-degrees (135 for S-Loop).  Without upgrades, most ships cannot do this within 1 maneuver and action phase.  The risk with these maneuvers is they usually come with a stress token, and are more susceptible to blocking; which can potentially fubar your maneuvers for two turns.

A red move is being quadly punished:

  • Can't go full distance of move
  • Can't turn 90' or 180'
  • Can't do an action (b/c of bump)
  • Gets a red token

White move is doubly punished

  • Can't go full distance
  • Can't take an action

Blue move is doubly punished but also REWARDED

  • Can't go full distance
  • Can't take an action
  • But STILL gets to remove a red token

One of these things is not like the others.

Edited by Lace Jetstreamer

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