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Any speculation about what being an Astartes will be like?

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 I am sure that many of you are dreaming about what it will be like as an astartes once deathwatch comes out.  Fortunately, Fantasy Flight games released the stats of a space marine in purge the unclean.  Basically, as I recall, this guy would have been able to clean out an entire space hulk of warp beasts and Dark Eldar without working up a sweat, the acloyte team was just being baby sat by him.  What can we infer so far about being an Astartes?...

1/  2X toughness, making the toughness bonus 8 (maybe 10 in some cases)

2/ Astartes Armour would be 10, 11, and 12 for the head, limbs and torso respectively.  I wonder what terminator armour will be like but I am guessing AP of 15 or 16 in the torso (much like Mega Nob armour)

3/  Any guess of the damage output of a bolter, or a heavy bolter... or a chainsword... or any other heavy weapon handled by a devistator squad? If I recall, the guy in the book above had a thunderhammer which had a +17 damage bonus.

4/  Probably an amazing resistance to disease, fatigue, mind control, etc.

5/  Any other thoughts?

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Tabletop Astartes unfortunately have little in common with those from the fluff. They just die to easily and getting killed by a Lasgun or even Grot's pistol is just too embarrassing for a Space Marine (my Terminator was once killed by a Servo-Skull familiar from 4th edition Marine Codex - can't help on those 1s). But looking at how Dark Heresy handles such figures like Deathwatch Sergeant from PtU, I guess there is nothing to worry about. I expect also Unnatural Strength x2 and some nice Chapter features - like Acute Senses of Wolves and fighting with the curse of the Wulfen. Oh, and I guess Astartes Boltguns will deal 2d10X damage with Tearing and Heavy Bolters something like 2d10+5 or similar.

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BrotherAtrox said:

Well the first question to ask: Fluff Astartes or Tabletop Astartes?

 

Probably something in between. I just can't imagine having either in-game. 

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BrotherAtrox said:

 

Well the first question to ask: Fluff Astartes or Tabletop Astartes?

 

 

 

I never really have seen the huge difference that some say exists.  Reading books about Space Marines the stories almost always focus on the Captain or some other high ranking brother (Independent/multiwound characters on the TT).  All around them however, rank-and-file Marines die fairly easily.  Granted there are examples of hyperbole, but for the most part Space Marines are almost as tough on the TT as they are represented in the background.  I'll admit they're toned down a bit, but not as much as some seem to think. 

 

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Space Marines don't get hit as hard by the TT nerfbat as greater daemons or eldar, but they do get hit.  2x Strength and Toughness with Space Marine bolt pistols doing 2d10 and power armour at 9+ (we don't know if the armour in question was artificer or not) based on the stats for the Veteran Battlebrother in Purge the Unclean.

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Atheosis said:

BrotherAtrox said:

 

Well the first question to ask: Fluff Astartes or Tabletop Astartes?

 

 

 

I never really have seen the huge difference that some say exists.  Reading books about Space Marines the stories almost always focus on the Captain or some other high ranking brother (Independent/multiwound characters on the TT).  All around them however, rank-and-file Marines die fairly easily.  Granted there are examples of hyperbole, but for the most part Space Marines are almost as tough on the TT as they are represented in the background.  I'll admit they're toned down a bit, but not as much as some seem to think. 

You mean like how in the fluff Space Marines can walk through small arms fire and beat down hordes of Orks by themselves, whereas in the tabletop 10 Guardsman can shoot up a squad of Marines and Orks demolish them in CQC?

It even says in the Index Astartes that the bones of a Space Marine can stop small calibre rounds.

Don't even get me started on boltguns.

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BrotherAtrox said:

 

Atheosis said:

 

BrotherAtrox said:

 

Well the first question to ask: Fluff Astartes or Tabletop Astartes?

 

 

 

I never really have seen the huge difference that some say exists.  Reading books about Space Marines the stories almost always focus on the Captain or some other high ranking brother (Independent/multiwound characters on the TT).  All around them however, rank-and-file Marines die fairly easily.  Granted there are examples of hyperbole, but for the most part Space Marines are almost as tough on the TT as they are represented in the background.  I'll admit they're toned down a bit, but not as much as some seem to think. 

 

 

You mean like how in the fluff Space Marines can walk through small arms fire and beat down hordes of Orks by themselves, whereas in the tabletop 10 Guardsman can shoot up a squad of Marines and Orks demolish them in CQC?

It even says in the Index Astartes that the bones of a Space Marine can stop small calibre rounds.

Don't even get me started on boltguns.

 

 

Oh yeah the one dead marine from a full rapid fire lasgun volley.  Yeah that's really shooting them up.  

I'll give you the Ork argument.  One of the issues I have with TT marines is that they don't have enough close combat attacks (why I prefer the Space Wolves codex hands down).  Space Wolves hold up much better against Orks in close combat.  The key of course is to shoot the hell out of a mob before engaging it in CC, which is in fact very fluffy.   And nowhere does it say that Space Marines can just wade through Orks without difficulty.

As far as the boltgun goes I'm curious what you think it should do.  As it is it kills lightly armored enemies very efficiently while dropping off against heavier troops.  That's pretty much what the background says it does.  With all your talk of what guardsman squad does shooting at marines, it's only fair to point out that a squad of marines rapid firing on a guardsman squad generally doesn't leave much alive (one or two guardsmen at most).

I can't help but think that you're one of those people who think Marines should succeed simply because of how uber they are.  The truth is that they are highly skilled tactically which causes their inherent superiority to be multiplied through precise application of force on the weak points of the enemy.  Don't get me wrong they're toned down on TT, but not to the degree you and others seem to think.

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I can't help but think that you're one of those people who think Marines should succeed simply because of how uber they are. The truth is that they are highly skilled tactically which causes their inherent superiority to be multiplied through precise application of force on the weak points of the enemy. Don't get me wrong they're toned down on TT, but not to the degree you and others seem to think.

I like to think that Marines are efficient. Compared to a guard regiment that would cost the same in training, equipment and logistics, Marines should accomplish more. Now considering what the implantations of the organs likely cost (modern day surgery and intensive care easily cost a few ten thousand dollars) and that Power Armour and bolters aren't exactly cheap either, you'll get a lot of guardsmen for the cost of a Marine, so that Marine should be worth a lot of guardsmen in combat.

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And he is according to fluff. But on TT? The hell opposite. Yeah, when you shoot Guardsmen standing in the open there in not much left. BUT they are always in cover! That's what Guard does. Trench War. So you'll kill like 5 of them. And then one shot from uber Leman Russ will vaporise the whole squad of Astartes. What the hell? I know one Marine (like SW with Mark of the Wulfen) can tear non-combat unit to pieces in one round, but that is so rare! Once, my Terminators got 4 shots from Necron Warriors. Nothing big. 3 of them died as I rolled 3 ones out of four dice. That not much of a fluff stuff when the sheer luck decides about Terminator getting killed by petty shot. And then, if Marines were supposed to die in the fluff as easily as on the TT, Chapters wouldn't keep up with replacing their numbers. TT was balanced with fluff in 2nd edition. And if TT Marines were supposed to strike according to fluff, there would be orbital bombardment and then pods with Marines charging right into enemy ranks. Coming back to the topic, I somehow may say that I expect Marines that are quite opposit to what they are on TT. gui%C3%B1o.gif

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Cifer said:

I can't help but think that you're one of those people who think Marines should succeed simply because of how uber they are. The truth is that they are highly skilled tactically which causes their inherent superiority to be multiplied through precise application of force on the weak points of the enemy. Don't get me wrong they're toned down on TT, but not to the degree you and others seem to think.

I like to think that Marines are efficient. Compared to a guard regiment that would cost the same in training, equipment and logistics, Marines should accomplish more. Now considering what the implantations of the organs likely cost (modern day surgery and intensive care easily cost a few ten thousand dollars) and that Power Armour and bolters aren't exactly cheap either, you'll get a lot of guardsmen for the cost of a Marine, so that Marine should be worth a lot of guardsmen in combat.

What does a lot mean to?  As it is, a single marine armed with a bolter has roughly a 9 to 1 kill rate versus guardsmen armed with lasguns.

Admittedly, there are absurd examples in the fluff of Marines achieving 100+ to 1 kill ratios.  Personally I prefer the stories that keep them mortal however (as with most GW background material there is a decided lack of consistency).  And as far as the TT goes how would one ever begin to represent such godlike power?  Space Marine armies would consist of no more than a single squad with each Marine costing as much as a Wolf Lord!  Kind of silly wouldn't you agree?

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Reilly said:

And he is according to fluff. But on TT? The hell opposite. Yeah, when you shoot Guardsmen standing in the open there in not much left. BUT they are always in cover! That's what Guard does. Trench War. So you'll kill like 5 of them. And then one shot from uber Leman Russ will vaporise the whole squad of Astartes. What the hell? I know one Marine (like SW with Mark of the Wulfen) can tear non-combat unit to pieces in one round, but that is so rare! Once, my Terminators got 4 shots from Necron Warriors. Nothing big. 3 of them died as I rolled 3 ones out of four dice. That not much of a fluff stuff when the sheer luck decides about Terminator getting killed by petty shot. And then, if Marines were supposed to die in the fluff as easily as on the TT, Chapters wouldn't keep up with replacing their numbers. TT was balanced with fluff in 2nd edition. And if TT Marines were supposed to strike according to fluff, there would be orbital bombardment and then pods with Marines charging right into enemy ranks. Coming back to the topic, I somehow may say that I expect Marines that are quite opposit to what they are on TT. gui%C3%B1o.gif

First off it explicitly states in the rules that casualties in the game are not necessarily deaths.  In fact, in the case of Marines, most aren't, but are rather meant to represent serious wounds that take a Marine out of the fight.  That said when a Marine is shot with a plasma gun or a tank shell, don't you think they should, if not be killed, at least be taken out of the fight for the remaining extent of a game? 

I will however admit that the nature of the system used for armor saves is a bit questionable.  Terminators are the classic example as you showed, where you can lose a heavily armored guy to a volley of small arms fire.  It is odd I'll admit, but as I said already TT Space Marines are nerfed just not as much as some maintain.  I've seen Deathwing armies whoop armies with over 5x the models before.  Space Marines on the TT can indeed kick butt.

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Atheosis said:

Reilly said:

 

And he is according to fluff. But on TT? The hell opposite. Yeah, when you shoot Guardsmen standing in the open there in not much left. BUT they are always in cover! That's what Guard does. Trench War. So you'll kill like 5 of them. And then one shot from uber Leman Russ will vaporise the whole squad of Astartes. What the hell? I know one Marine (like SW with Mark of the Wulfen) can tear non-combat unit to pieces in one round, but that is so rare! Once, my Terminators got 4 shots from Necron Warriors. Nothing big. 3 of them died as I rolled 3 ones out of four dice. That not much of a fluff stuff when the sheer luck decides about Terminator getting killed by petty shot. And then, if Marines were supposed to die in the fluff as easily as on the TT, Chapters wouldn't keep up with replacing their numbers. TT was balanced with fluff in 2nd edition. And if TT Marines were supposed to strike according to fluff, there would be orbital bombardment and then pods with Marines charging right into enemy ranks. Coming back to the topic, I somehow may say that I expect Marines that are quite opposit to what they are on TT. gui%C3%B1o.gif

 

 

First off it explicitly states in the rules that casualties in the game are not necessarily deaths.  In fact, in the case of Marines, most aren't, but are rather meant to represent serious wounds that take a Marine out of the fight.  That said when a Marine is shot with a plasma gun or a tank shell, don't you think they should, if not be killed, at least be taken out of the fight for the remaining extent of a game? 

I will however admit that the nature of the system used for armor saves is a bit questionable.  Terminators are the classic example as you showed, where you can lose a heavily armored guy to a volley of small arms fire.  It is odd I'll admit, but as I said already TT Space Marines are nerfed just not as much as some maintain.  I've seen Deathwing armies whoop armies with over 5x the models before.  Space Marines on the TT can indeed kick butt.

No, they are not overly nerfed compared to for example daemons (espesially greater ones) but to represent their fluff I think +1A, re-roll armoursave and rending on boltweapons would be required.

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Atheosis said:

Oh yeah the one dead marine from a full rapid fire lasgun volley.  Yeah that's really shooting them up.  

I'll give you the Ork argument.  One of the issues I have with TT marines is that they don't have enough close combat attacks (why I prefer the Space Wolves codex hands down).  Space Wolves hold up much better against Orks in close combat.  The key of course is to shoot the hell out of a mob before engaging it in CC, which is in fact very fluffy.   And nowhere does it say that Space Marines can just wade through Orks without difficulty.

As far as the boltgun goes I'm curious what you think it should do.  As it is it kills lightly armored enemies very efficiently while dropping off against heavier troops.  That's pretty much what the background says it does.  With all your talk of what guardsman squad does shooting at marines, it's only fair to point out that a squad of marines rapid firing on a guardsman squad generally doesn't leave much alive (one or two guardsmen at most).

I can't help but think that you're one of those people who think Marines should succeed simply because of how uber they are.  The truth is that they are highly skilled tactically which causes their inherent superiority to be multiplied through precise application of force on the weak points of the enemy.  Don't get me wrong they're toned down on TT, but not to the degree you and others seem to think.

Even if its just one dead marine, thats still grossly inaccurate compared to the fluff where Space Marines wade through seas of las fire. Astartes are compared to walking battle tanks, however on the tabletop they're more like guys with decent armor.

Space Marines tool on Orks just fine in Rynn's World. 10 on 10 in CQC tends to favor Orks on the tabletop.

The boltgun is often depicted as being capable of penetrating power armor and being used as a makeshift sniper rifle. Range 24" and AP5 does not correlate with that, but then GW seems to have no idea of how a sniper rifle really works anyway.

Every bit of fluff shows Marines holding out against odds incredibly against them - a handful of marines win a battle, a company of marines take down over a 1,000 Orks, etc.

I've never seen this represented on the tabletop aside from Movie Marines.

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it would be nice to see something along the lines of what is found in the old 40k compendium (going to read that great red books now :) ) that would make a lot of people very happy ( and upset a few as well but that's bound to happen)

shame the core books not out now (**** you! angry not ready book godz!) and if you don't like it well you can always house rule the **** out of it till you get what you like :)

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I expect a quite few people will be underwhelmed when they first see what kind of stats a starting level DW character will get.

Reason?

Starting level DW characters are most likely to be just that: starting level, run-of-the-mill linemen with little or nothing in common to world-destroying heroic archetypes of the novels. DW characters will have to be built in such a way that there is plenty of room for improvement that players can look forward to and plenty of challenges easily available for GMs to throw against them. Thus when you expect "hit-with-every-bolt-kill-with-every-shot-invulnerable-to-everything" heroes who can sweep legions of xenos aside in seconds you will be disappointed.

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Returning to the Space Marine who put in an appearance in Dark Heresy, I seem to recall he lacked Dodge. Amusing though this was, our group felt it an unlikely skill for a Space Marine not to have picked up. I would expect DW characters to be significantly different from that particular one, though I expect, fundamentally, there will be similarities.

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Sammail said:

My theory is that Deathwatch characters are going to be on par with Ascension and RT characters.

its my understanding that deathwatch characters are going to be more powerful. but I could be wrong. it may have been a dream, hope not :)

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My take is if the darn marines left their helmets on, they'd probably never die... But since they have their helmets off to show their pearly whites while gunning down orcs, a well placed bullet is all it takes to put them down.

It's like guys riding motorcycles without helmets or other protective gear. Just plain silly stuff.

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Polaria said:

I expect a quite few people will be underwhelmed when they first see what kind of stats a starting level DW character will get.

Reason?

Starting level DW characters are most likely to be just that: starting level, run-of-the-mill linemen with little or nothing in common to world-destroying heroic archetypes of the novels. DW characters will have to be built in such a way that there is plenty of room for improvement that players can look forward to and plenty of challenges easily available for GMs to throw against them. Thus when you expect "hit-with-every-bolt-kill-with-every-shot-invulnerable-to-everything" heroes who can sweep legions of xenos aside in seconds you will be disappointed.

That makes terribly little sense though. Marines get brought into the Deathwatch because they show a particular talent, affinity for killing Xenos, or are very experienced - and typically its a combination of all three.

There's room for growth but if you make it too much about leveling and XP its going to feel even more like a dungeon crawl.

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I want my Astartes as portrayed in the Imperial Armour books by Forge World - super soldiers, not super heroes.

Examples: a company of Marines do what thousands of Imperial Guard could not (IA7), and pay a heavy price; but when the odds are too stacked against them they loose and die just like anyone else (IA3).  

DW

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LeBlanc13 said:

My take is if the darn marines left their helmets on, they'd probably never die... But since they have their helmets off to show their pearly whites while gunning down orcs, a well placed bullet is all it takes to put them down.

It's like guys riding motorcycles without helmets or other protective gear. Just plain silly stuff.

To be honest that's always driven me crazy.  When I model Marines they ALL have helmets.  I get why Space Wolves do it, but it doesn't make sense with other Chapters.

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BrotherAtrox said:

Well the first question to ask: Fluff Astartes or Tabletop Astartes?

 I would guess fluff marine, without a doubt.

The RPG would be more about "living in the Imperium of the 41st millennum" so it would try to capture the epic feel of the Astartes rather than run a simulation with play balance.  Even if you look at the sample marine in Dark Heresy, he was really tough.  If you compare him to many aliens in the suppliments, then you can see that ork firepower would just ping off his power armour and an Eldar would only cause damage on a lucky headshot.  The Emperor took over the entire Imperium with only a few legions of marines so they need to be extremely powerful. 

The flipside is that Space Marines are RARE.  A million sounds like alot but spread out through the entire Galaxy they are extremely spread thin.  Each one needs to count to make it worthwhile.  A planet can usually be assaulted with only a company of Marines.  However, they cannot really take casualties so any loss is a blow to them.  Deathwatch are even rarer still, with a thousand plus spread over the whole Galaxy they may as well not exist (Douglas Adams had an equation saying that a finite number of people divided by infinite space is zero).

Most of the fluff has hundreds of Marines fighting millions of Orks or billions of tyrannids.  I am hoping that they have thought about it and have a system of epic feats which would allow the players to think "yes, with sacrifice we CAN stop this Waaagh"

 

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