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Afterburnes is this where the lie comes undone?

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1 minute ago, PanchoX1 said:

Which you won't. You won't HAVE to. You do have to wait until wave 2 before it's in a rebel pack. Maybe wave three.  

 

42 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

Exactly this.

Saying cards will eventually be in a faction relevant expansion is horseshit. 

FFG said you would not have to buy outside your faction in 2e as a direct response to the Autothrusters ***********. Autothrusters was eventually released in an Imperial expansion too, but by then it was far too late. It was a vital upgrade on some Imperial ships, and if you didn't buy it at the time of release you were screwed competitively. 

I'm just talking in circles at this point....

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2 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Based on your interpretation.  By my interpretation, their statement only regarded having access to at least one copy, and said nothing about getting additional copies.

And now we're back to the original question I asked that you never answered.

 

20 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

why is that okay? What's your solution for getting more than one copy?

Why is that an unreasonable goal for a non-limited upgrade card? 

What is your solution for getting more than one copy of Afterburners without buying outside of the Rebel faction? 

Is it to buy more core sets?

Do you think that is acceptable?

4 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Now, this is just outright disingenuous.  "What I said didn't perfectly match what I, myself, intended, so I misspoke.  A simple, honest mistake."

Whereas

"What FFG's article-writer wrote some time back doesn't perfectly match what the developers and/or management intended by the time of release, so IT WAS A DELIBERATE LIE!"

Ooh, that's clever.

Well played.

The difference is that I'm not writing official promotional material for a product people will be paying for, I'm not a professional writer and I don't have an editor or copywriter to check my posts on the forum.

If I err in a post and someone calls me on it, I have a chance to correct myself and nothing is affected.

If companies get things wrong in a marketing document, people feel misled and lied to.

That is why people literally get paid money to write these thing, because in theory there is a robust enough process and guidelines to avoid misleading people. 

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3 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

And now we're back to the original question I asked that you never answered.

 

What is your solution for getting more than one copy of Afterburners without buying outside of the Rebel faction? 

Is it to buy more core sets?

Do you think that is acceptable?

Ooh, that's clever.

Well played.

The difference is that I'm not writing official promotional material for a product people will be paying for, I'm not a professional writer and I don't have an editor or copywriter to check my posts on the forum.

If I err in a post and someone calls me on it, I have a chance to correct myself and nothing is affected.

If companies get things wrong in a marketing document, people feel misled and lied to.

That is why people literally get paid money to write these thing, because in theory there is a robust enough process and guidelines to avoid misleading people. 

Well at least now we know he's only holding ffg to the same standard as internet forum rando#729205 and not to the standard of a company he pays for a product. Explains the extreme handwaving of screw ups.

Edited by Dabirdisdaword

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5 minutes ago, Chumbalaya said:

mad.png

Love it when people get involved in a discussion by nicking someone else's content and adding literally nothing of their own. 

Not even mad either, just trying to explain why I think criticism of how FFG has handled some things so far is justified. 

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7 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

 

49 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

Exactly this.

Saying cards will eventually be in a faction relevant expansion is horseshit. 

FFG said you would not have to buy outside your faction in 2e as a direct response to the Autothrusters ***********. Autothrusters was eventually released in an Imperial expansion too, but by then it was far too late. It was a vital upgrade on some Imperial ships, and if you didn't buy it at the time of release you were screwed competitively. 

I'm just talking in circles at this point....

why is it Horseshit? If it takes 3+ years like autothrusters, then yeah, that would be pointless. but if it's one or two waves away, especially with the "aggressive release" schedule, that's perfectly reasonable. Time will tell.

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Just now, PanchoX1 said:

why is it Horseshit? If it takes 3+ years like autothrusters, then yeah, that would be pointless. but if it's one or two waves away, especially with the "aggressive release" schedule, that's perfectly reasonable. Time will tell.

If it was going to be in a successive wave and we knew ahead of time it was coming then yeah, I guess it wouldn't be too bad.

The issue comes when you release a really good card in only one expansion, players want it for their builds and because they have no other knowledge about ways of getting it, they feel compelled to buy another faction's ship they can't use. 

You may say the promise it will come 'eventually' is good enough, but I really don't think it is.

If a new card comes out in an expansion and players want that card for the next tournament it will be eligible for, they can't just sit and wait for their faction's version to come out because there will always be that person with enough money to just not care, and they will risk getting left behind the competitive curve. 

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2 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

If it was going to be in a successive wave and we knew ahead of time it was coming then yeah, I guess it wouldn't be too bad.

The issue comes when you release a really good card in only one expansion, players want it for their builds and because they have no other knowledge about ways of getting it, they feel compelled to buy another faction's ship they can't use. 

You may say the promise it will come 'eventually' is good enough, but I really don't think it is.

If a new card comes out in an expansion and players want that card for the next tournament it will be eligible for, they can't just sit and wait for their faction's version to come out because there will always be that person with enough money to just not care, and they will risk getting left behind the competitive curve. 

While that is a valid point, if you're that serious about tournament play you'd already be shooting yourself in the foot by playing a single faction. 

 

No faction has been top tier for the whole of 1.0, not even Rebels. If you stick to one faction, sooner or later you'll be left behind the curve by that choice alone. 

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12 hours ago, Darth evil said:
Between the conversion kits and the support offered by the X-Wing squad builder app, you’ll have everything that you need to completely customize your squadron and play with all of your existing ships in the game’s second edition
 
com·plete
kəmˈplēt/
adjective
 
  1. 1.
    having all the necessary or appropriate parts

1. It just so happens that your list using multiple copies of the same card is only mostly custom. There's a big difference between mostly custom and completely custom. When your list is only mostly custom, you'll probably have to buy some extra fang fighters to play in official tournaments.

2. That quoted statement doesn't say anything about competing in official tournaments which is the only time you ever need physical copies of your full list. Official tournaments are an optional play format.

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30 minutes ago, ViscerothSWG said:

1. It just so happens that your list using multiple copies of the same card is only mostly custom. There's a big difference between mostly custom and completely custom. When your list is only mostly custom, you'll probably have to buy some extra fang fighters to play in official tournaments.

2. That quoted statement doesn't say anything about competing in official tournaments which is the only time you ever need physical copies of your full list. Official tournaments are an optional play format.

Soooo... it doesn't have all the necessary and appropriate parts because it requires make believe proxying of necessary and appropriate parts. Pretty sure that makes it incomplete.

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1 minute ago, Dabirdisdaword said:

Soooo... it doesn't have all the necessary and appropriate parts because it requires make believe proxying of necessary and appropriate parts. Pretty sure that makes it incomplete.

Just the opposite. It has exactly all of the parts. A complete set of them, in fact. Wanting more of some of them makes it no less complete a set. It makes your hypothetical intended collection require further buy-in, but your hypothetical intended collection goes above and beyond a complete set.

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12 minutes ago, ViscerothSWG said:

Just the opposite. It has exactly all of the parts. A complete set of them, in fact. Wanting more of some of them makes it no less complete a set. It makes your hypothetical intended collection require further buy-in, but your hypothetical intended collection goes above and beyond a complete set.

Oh so we found the maul in the rebel pack? The one that originally came in a rebel ship to synergize with rebel crew?  Nifty I must have missed that. Or rebel conversion incomplete.

 

There are enough examples that this debate is getting ridiculous.

Edited by Dabirdisdaword

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10 hours ago, Vykk Draygo said:

I’m pretty sure cards are still going to be required for tournament play. 

Source for your statement, because I am getting my information from here

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2018/5/1/x-wing-second-edition/

2 hours ago, PanchoX1 said:

Impressive. Every word in that sentence was wrong.

1eayvo.jpg

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7 minutes ago, Dabirdisdaword said:

Oh so we found the maul in the rebel pack? The one that originally came in a rebel ship to synergize with rebel crew?  Nifty I must have missed that. Or rebel conversion incomplete.

 

There are enough examples that this debate is getting ridiculous.

Maul came in which 1.0 rebel ship that hasn't released yet in 2.0? I bet he's in that ship pack again in 2.0 when it releases and will be in the veteran goodie bag version too. But we'll have to wait to see. 

Out of curiosity, how many times did you personally fly the ezra/maul combo in tournaments in 1.0? I only ask because it seems like the answer will be a lot based on your interest in it.

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9 minutes ago, ViscerothSWG said:

Maul came in which 1.0 rebel ship that hasn't released yet in 2.0? I bet he's in that ship pack again in 2.0 when it releases and will be in the veteran goodie bag version too. But we'll have to wait to see. 

Out of curiosity, how many times did you personally fly the ezra/maul combo in tournaments in 1.0? I only ask because it seems like the answer will be a lot based on your interest in it.

Once. in epic. before the new epic faq/regs.

We are talking about conversion kits here Yeah? And the completeness of their conversion? So the rebel conversion kit not converting the 1.0 rebel kit with a character built around rebel crew synergy doesn't check off "complete" it checks off "actually doesn't completely convert your 1.0 rebel kits. buy that thing elsewhere either by scum or buying the model again or buying some veteran card pack all notably not a conversion for rebel. cause certain point of view reference"

Edited by Dabirdisdaword

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1 hour ago, GuacCousteau said:

 

I'm just talking in circles at this point....

  1. Person say that 2.0 competitive is going to be expensive because you need to buy every expansion pack
  2. post a source from FFG that says otherwise
  3. Said person immediately calls you a liar and an idiot and rejects your information as falsehoods and fake news.

It is like people picked up their debate skills from watching post 2016 politics or something.:rolleyes:

"Never Argue with idiots...

...they will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"

... a person who is smarter than I am.

Edited by Marinealver

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1 hour ago, GuacCousteau said:

What is your solution for getting more than one copy of Afterburners without buying outside of the Rebel faction?

You're moving the goalposts, now.  I've made it perfectly clear that I view the "in-faction only" prohibition to be only for access to an upgrade, and therefore have no problems with having to go out-of-faction for extra copies.

Why do I think this is ok?  Quite frankly, because I have no compelling reason to not find it ok.  I have access to the card, and can build lists using the cards I have access to.  If I don't have enough copies of a card to kit out every single one of my ships with it, I can choose which ship to put it on and put something else on the rest.  Nobody is forcing me to run four copies of the card.

Ok, but what if the meta shows that multiple copies are most competitive?  All I can say is that in every single game I've ever played, there's a difference (sometimes quite large) between what's required to play the game and what's required to be competitive.  You can't take statements about the one and apply it automatically to the other.

1 hour ago, Dabirdisdaword said:

Well at least now we know he's only holding ffg to the same standard as internet forum rando#729205 and not to the standard of a company he pays for a product. Explains the extreme handwaving of screw ups.

You guys are reading far more into my post than what I actually said (no surprise there).

I was not speaking of what standards we have for whom.  I was speaking of motivation.  Some have accused FFG of actually lying.  Lying is not simply being wrong, but knowingly spreading untruth.  My post was pointing out the hypocrisy of assuming mistakes in some cases and active deceit in others, especially when the latter statements are made over multiple stages in the development cycle.

If you'd like to discuss standards, that's a whole separate discussion.

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7 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

You're moving the goalposts, now.  I've made it perfectly clear that I view the "in-faction only" prohibition to be only for access to an upgrade, and therefore have no problems with having to go out-of-faction for extra copies.

Why do I think this is ok?  Quite frankly, because I have no compelling reason to not find it ok.  I have access to the card, and can build lists using the cards I have access to.  If I don't have enough copies of a card to kit out every single one of my ships with it, I can choose which ship to put it on and put something else on the rest.  Nobody is forcing me to run four copies of the card.

Ok, but what if the meta shows that multiple copies are most competitive?  All I can say is that in every single game I've ever played, there's a difference (sometimes quite large) between what's required to play the game and what's required to be competitive.  You can't take statements about the one and apply it automatically to the other.

You guys are reading far more into my post than what I actually said (no surprise there).

I was not speaking of what standards we have for whom.  I was speaking of motivation.  Some have accused FFG of actually lying.  Lying is not simply being wrong, but knowingly spreading untruth.  My post was pointing out the hypocrisy of assuming mistakes in some cases and active deceit in others, especially when the latter statements are made over multiple stages in the development cycle.

If you'd like to discuss standards, that's a whole separate discussion.

So they know the conversion kits dont completely convert (see the maul rebel bit) but spread information that the kits completely upgrade the collection. It's not like that has been for a day but weeks. They are knowingly spreading something untrue, is that not your definition of lying? I know it's not the afterburner example but there are a few more we could chase down on this whole "lying" thing.

Edited by Dabirdisdaword

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14 minutes ago, Dabirdisdaword said:

Once. in epic. before the new epic faq/regs.

We are talking about conversion kits here Yeah? And the completeness of their conversion? So the rebel conversion kit not converting the 1.0 rebel kit with a character built around rebel crew synergy doesn't check off "complete" it checks off "actually doesn't completely convert your 1.0 rebel kits. buy that thing elsewhere either by scum or buying the model again or buying some veteran card pack all notably not a conversion for rebel. cause certain point of view reference"

Did they claim they were converting every build in the conversion kits?  The articles I read said they were converting all the ships, not necessarily pilots or upgrades.

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3 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Did they claim they were converting every build in the conversion kits?  The articles I read said they were converting all the ships, not necessarily pilots or upgrades.

I didn't expect all upgrades to convert over cause 2.0 was about killing some of em. But they did convert this one over. And after all the bluster about converting the collection and not having to buy out of faction they lock a rebel expansion card behind a 50 dollar scum pay wall for (speculation here cause they could just not release it in the pede release if they chose) x amount of time.

 

But fair enough they worded carefully to not say they're lying. You're right they're not lying. But it feels manipulative like dishonesty through omission.

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20 minutes ago, Dabirdisdaword said:

Once. in epic. before the new epic faq/regs.

We are talking about conversion kits here Yeah? And the completeness of their conversion? So the rebel conversion kit not converting the 1.0 rebel kit with a character built around rebel crew synergy doesn't check off "complete" it checks off "actually doesn't completely convert your 1.0 rebel kits. buy that thing elsewhere either by scum or buying the model again or buying some veteran card pack all notably not a conversion for rebel. cause certain point of view reference"

But Maul isn't a rebel crew. He is a scum crew with a single rebel allowance outlier. If I was only putting him in 1 kit, it'd be the 1 where he gets the most use, as they chose to do. And eventually when his ship releases, rebels can buy him in-faction for that one specific use... but since epic isn't converting to 2.0 yet and ffg accelerating the 2.0 release cycle, you've nothing to worry about.

In hindsight, ffg should probably have put Maul in the core set and moved afterburners to just being in expansion packs. Would have solved everything.

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2 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

What is your solution for getting more than one copy of Afterburners without buying outside of the Rebel faction? 

Is it to buy more core sets?

Do you think that is acceptable?

How many is enough? 2? 3?

We will all have 1 copy from the Core set. There's a huge difference between not having something and not having as many as you want. If it turns out it's actually a really good, cheap Mod maybe we'll see TIE swarms with 6 of them. Should FFG provide 6 to everyone?

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12 hours ago, Vykk Draygo said:

I’m pretty sure cards are still going to be required for tournament play. 

 

1 hour ago, Marinealver said:

Source for your statement, because I am getting my information from here

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2018/5/1/x-wing-second-edition/

Marinealver - I can't recall the video where they said that just like always for official tournaments you'll need a physical copy of every upgrade card in your squad.

Can you quote the line on that page that gives you a different impression?

Thanks.

Edited by JamesWG

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5 hours ago, Jike said:

How many is enough? 2? 3?

We will all have 1 copy from the Core set. There's a huge difference between not having something and not having as many as you want. If it turns out it's actually a really good, cheap Mod maybe we'll see TIE swarms with 6 of them. Should FFG provide 6 to everyone?

You raise an interesting point.  What is the best business model for FFG & FFG's customers?  We can safely assume that x-wing is a Pay 2 Win (Pay for advantage) game.  The question should be, how MUCH should x-wing be pay 2 win?  Reducing the cost for the player will reduce the sliding scale of pay 2 win; this is good for the player but not as good for FFG (at least on face value).

Here is an example with x-wing 1.0.  Emperor Palp ONLY was included in the Imperial Raider expansion ($100USD).  Players wanting to use the Emperor (who wouldn't???) will have to pay $100 USD OR get it from a 3rd party (which will still be expensive maybe $30 USD).  Emperor Palp is a very strong example of pay 2 win especially since he was the most powerful card in the game.

A different model that leverages the 'app' could see Palp being included in digital form.  CoolMiniOrNot is the game publisher for Zombicide which has a companion app.  The zombicide companion app allows for micro-transaction purchases of expansion cards (from $0.99 to $2.99 depending on the number of cards and follows their physical product line).  It would be my suggestion that X-Wing 2.0 app also leverages this micro-transaction mechanism to sell wave packs.  The best balance for FFG profits and player cost is the following:

  • Faction Based Wave Pilots Packs
  • Faction Based Upgrade Packs
  • Generic Upgrade Packs

The price should be in the range of $0.99 to $2.99.  I don't know if the Faction based Pilots & Upgrades should be in the same pack ... maybe?  By purchasing the packs, the player has access to an unlimited number of those cards to be used in their x-wing lists.

Why is this better for players?  Its a much cheaper proposition to be invested in the game.  Its much CHEAPER for new players entering the game.  It allows players to use multiple copies of cards at a low price.  I think the biggest win for FFG is player retention.  This new model is nicer to players which incentivizes them to stay around longer.

X-Wing 1.0 business model was BRUTAL.  I know many players quit due to this high pay 2 win scheme.  

Anyways, that is how I would solve the multiple copy issue.  

Also, in terms of FFG not being able to recover costs ... many video games that are FREE 2 PLAY survive ONLY from micro-transactions selling skins.  X-Wing has the physical price tag that won't go away (we need ship models).  However, going virtual is an untapped market for them and I would be in favour.

Edited by Lace Jetstreamer
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