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Afterburnes is this where the lie comes undone?

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13 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

human beings only really have three needs ... food/water, shelter, and clothing

That can't be right. There are way too many nudist colonies in Florida for that to be right.

Source: lived in Florida for about 15 years.

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The lengths some of you will go to to defend FFG is at times astonishing.

A non-limited upgrade card should never be locked away in the core set. You should not be expected to ever have to buy more than one copy of the core set.

If you want to field a list of ships that uses multiple copies of Afterburners, there should be a way to acquire the card that does not require you to spend £30 each go and waste money on extra dice, templates, tokens, damage decks and no fewer than three extraneous ships you don't want. 

Notably, this was definitely avoided in the 1e release. Proton torpedoes were available in the X-Wing and Y-Wing expansions, Marksmanship in the X-Wing and Determination in the TIE Fighter. R2-D2 and R2-F2 were unique, and so nobody ever needed more than one copy of them anyway. 

The difference in 2e is that FFG have said we no longer need to buy ships outside a particular faction to get upgrades they can all use. If they truly meant that, Afterburners should have been in the X-Wing and TIE Advanced releases as well. 

It's as simple as that.

Anyone saying Imperial and Rebel players can get all the copies of Afterburners they need from the core set because it has Rebel and Imperial ships in it is advocating for an obscenely greedy business practice.

Not to mention it still doesn't make what FFG said true, because by it's very nature an Imperial player will be 'forced' to buy a Rebel ship they may not have wanted and vice versa. 

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What makes you guys think the Afterburners are the 2.0 Autothrustors?

For one, wrong name. Several upgrades kept the same name and were either reworked or tweaked. Those are 2.0 versions.

Autos are gone because theyre kinda pointless outside of R3 since theres no "out of arc" now, and making them work on non V arcs would be kinda cheap considering the point of the turret change is to remove the need of autos.

Afters are completely different mechanic from the ground up. Nothing in 1.0 is even similar. They used the art because this is FFG, they reuse art all the time and autos are dead so hey it fits.

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8 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

The lengths some of you will go to to defend FFG is at times astonishing.

A non-limited upgrade card should never be locked away in the core set. You should not be expected to ever have to buy more than one copy of the core set.

If you want to field a list of ships that uses multiple copies of Afterburners, there should be a way to acquire the card that does not require you to spend £30 each go and waste money on extra dice, templates, tokens, damage decks and no fewer than three extraneous ships you don't want. 

Notably, this was definitely avoided in the 1e release. Proton torpedoes were available in the X-Wing and Y-Wing expansions, Marksmanship in the X-Wing and Determination in the TIE Fighter. R2-D2 and R2-F2 were unique, and so nobody ever needed more than one copy of them anyway. 

The difference in 2e is that FFG have said we no longer need to buy ships outside a particular faction to get upgrades they can all use. If they truly meant that, Afterburners should have been in the X-Wing and TIE Advanced releases as well. 

It's as simple as that.

Anyone saying Imperial and Rebel players can get all the copies of Afterburners they need from the core set because it has Rebel and Imperial ships in it is advocating for an obscenely greedy business practice.

Not to mention it still doesn't make what FFG said true, because by it's very nature an Imperial player will be 'forced' to buy a Rebel ship they may not have wanted and vice versa. 

How much does Afterburners cost? How integral to a typical squad is it? We don't know yet. We also don't know whether it comes in the TIE Fighter or TIE Advanced expansions, allowing Imperial players to get extra copies with those ships because FFG haven't previewed them yet. We don't really know if this is going to be a 2-3 copies in most squads sort of upgrade or a 1-of for your IN5/6 ace so all we're doing right now is jumping to conclusions. I think the amount of FFG defending is possibly because of the alarming increase in threads critical of 2nd edition that are based on a faulty premise or a complete misunderstanding of what has been promised.

You might even say the lengths some people will go to to criticise FFG at times is astonishing.

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Gotta say I don't understand the complaints about Afterburners not being in the core set despite it promising to convert your ships

Why aren't we complaining about the lack of 2.0 movement templates instead?

Anyway, I think complaints about Afterburners are going to result in a whole lot of nothing. If they're properly balanced, you're going to use AN afterburner a list at most on A single, expensive, high I pilot. So the coreset, which you gotta get anyway, has you covered

If you want to run more for shiggles, just proxy 

 

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8 hours ago, Marinealver said:

 

2.0 is app build for competitive play which means upgrade cards and pilot cards are optional. The casual play makes builds out of the upgrade cards that are in the expansion.

Only if you are using some variant of casual where you have upgrades swapped do you need more than a single copy, then again it might just be easier to use the app.

Impressive. Every word in that sentence was wrong.

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14 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

You should not be expected to ever have to buy more than one copy of the core set.

Someone's not familiar with FFG's LCGs...

15 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

The difference in 2e is that FFG have said we no longer need to buy ships outside a particular faction to get upgrades they can all use. If they truly meant that, Afterburners should have been in the X-Wing and TIE Advanced releases as well. 

It's as simple as that.

You get a copy in the core, which most every single player will have.  Just because you feel you need more copies doesn't mean that your faction doesn't have access to it.  Maybe in the future FFG will release a generally usable upgrade in one faction only, and show their words to be false, but that's not what's happening here.

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25 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

The lengths some of you will go to to defend FFG is at times astonishing.

I think it's more the case of defending FFG against unsubstantiated claims.

Quote

A non-limited upgrade card should never be locked away in the core set. You should not be expected to ever have to buy more than one copy of the core set.

We don't know if it is locked away in the core set or if is isn't.  The information currently is that it's available from 2 places.  There may be more, there may not.

Quote

If you want to field a list of ships that uses multiple copies of Afterburners, there should be a way to acquire the card that does not require you to spend £30 each go and waste money on extra dice, templates, tokens, damage decks and no fewer than three extraneous ships you don't want. 

Maybe there will be, maybe there won't.

Quote

Notably, this was definitely avoided in the 1e release. Proton torpedoes were available in the X-Wing and Y-Wing expansions, Marksmanship in the X-Wing and Determination in the TIE Fighter. R2-D2 and R2-F2 were unique, and so nobody ever needed more than one copy of them anyway. 

The difference in 2e is that FFG have said we no longer need to buy ships outside a particular faction to get upgrades they can all use. If they truly meant that, Afterburners should have been in the X-Wing and TIE Advanced releases as well. 

It's as simple as that.

No it's not.  You're making assumptions.

Quote

Anyone saying Imperial and Rebel players can get all the copies of Afterburners they need from the core set because it has Rebel and Imperial ships in it is advocating for an obscenely greedy business practice.

Not reading anybody stating this as fact.  If someone has then that someone is wrong as (yes you've guessed it) we don't know yet.

Quote

Not to mention it still doesn't make what FFG said true, because by it's very nature an Imperial player will be 'forced' to buy a Rebel ship they may not have wanted and vice versa. 

See previous comments.

Edited by MrParsons

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3 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

You get a copy in the core, which most every single player will have.  Just because you feel you need more copies doesn't mean that your faction doesn't have access to it. 

I agree but that's not the issue that most people are concerned with. If afterburners is only in the core, I have no issue. I'm sure more copies will be available in later waves. but if it's also packed with the fang fighter and NOT in the scum conversion kit, that's exactly opposite of what FFG has stated. That bothers me.

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38 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

The difference in 2e is that FFG have said we no longer need to buy ships outside a particular faction to get upgrades they can all use. If they truly meant that, Afterburners should have been in the X-Wing and TIE Advanced releases as well. 

My hope is that the card is (as some have speculated in this thread) included in the TIE Interceptor and A-wing minis in wave 2.  IF that proves accurate then at least FFG can say that you don't have to buy an expansion for another faction to get the card.

BUT I will also add this: the cards really should be available within the same wave/release.  What happens in the future if a new card becomes THE meta card to have, but it's only released to one faction in a wave?  How many months would go by where two (or four after the FO/Resistance come in) factions wouldn't be able to get the hot new card until some time later?  In casual play you can proxy these things, but in higher level competitive environments your options are a lot more limited unless you buy the out-of-faction mini. 

Sorry but that just feels wrong to me.  YMMV.

Edited by papy72

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6 minutes ago, papy72 said:

BUT I will also add this: the cards really should be available within the same wave/release.

Let's say a given wave included a heavy bomber for one faction, a light interceptor for another, and a support/transport for a third. 

Not only would you likely need to triple the number of upgrades in each box, but 2/3 or more of any given ship's box might be upgrades that ship can't even use.

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44 minutes ago, Jike said:

We also don't know whether it comes in the TIE Fighter or TIE Advanced expansions, allowing Imperial players to get extra copies with those ships because FFG haven't previewed them yet.

The conversion kit is supposed to contain all the the contents from Wave 1, new or otherwise. Afterburners was not in the Imperial Conversion Kit unboxing video ergo it is a logical conclusion to assume it's not in the TIE Advanced or Fighter expansions.

There is some confusion on this, admittedly, because apparently it comes in the Fang expansion but not the Scum conversion kit. 

Of course, if that is the case it just means FFG has been deliberately misleading about something else. 

If it turns out I'm wrong and it is shown in the TIE Advanced preview, then great. Of course, it also means FFG instead lied about all of wave one being included in the kits so there's still something to criticise. 

36 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Someone's not familiar with FFG's LCGs...

Bad practice in another system does not excuse it in this one. I don't play the LCGs, no, but if I did and FFG forced players to buy more than one copy you bet your *** I'd be criticising that too.

36 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

You get a copy in the core, which most every single player will have.  Just because you feel you need more copies doesn't mean that your faction doesn't have access to it. 

Literally the entire point of my post was that the core set doesn't count. It's not about 'access', it's about what's fair. Scum players can get the card by paying £15 for one expansion. Imperial players would either have to shell out double that for a bunch of **** they don't need, or buy an expansion for a ship not in their faction. 

Also, let me repeat that the exact claim made by FFG was that you shouldn't have to buy ships outside your faction to get upgrades. If you're an Imperial player who wants more Afterburners and you can only get them in the core set, then you have to buy an out of faction X-Wing to get them. Doesn't matter if you also get more TIE Fighters you can use, you're still being forced to buy a ship you can't use with your faction.

34 minutes ago, MrParsons said:

Not reading anybody stating this as fact.  If someone has then that someone is wrong as (yes you've guessed it) we don't know yet.

See:

36 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

You get a copy in the core, which most every single player will have.  Just because you feel you need more copies doesn't mean that your faction doesn't have access to it.

Literally the comment above yours, dude....

40 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

If you want to run more for shiggles, just proxy 

What about competitive play, where that's not allowed?

23 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

But afterburners is new?

FFG have said multiple times that everything in the wave 1 expansion is included in the conversion kits, regardless of whether it's 'new' or not.

I'll try and return with a source or two later. 

 

EDIT: Source as promised.

From the Empire announcement article

"The TIE Advanced x1 Expansion Pack also contains a few entirely new cards that have never before appeared in the game's first edition. These new cards and associated punchboard are included in the Galactic Empire Conversion Kit for the benefit of veteran players!"

The same text is used for all of the expansions in Wave 1. 

Upgrades are cards. There is no way you could possibly interpret that statement as not including upgrades.  

20 minutes ago, papy72 said:

BUT I will also add this: the cards really should be available within the same wave/release

Exactly this.

Saying cards will eventually be in a faction relevant expansion is horseshit. 

FFG said you would not have to buy outside your faction in 2e as a direct response to the Autothrusters ***********. Autothrusters was eventually released in an Imperial expansion too, but by then it was far too late. It was a vital upgrade on some Imperial ships, and if you didn't buy it at the time of release you were screwed competitively. 

Edited by GuacCousteau

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13 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

The conversion kit is supposed to contain all the the contents from Wave 1

Well, kinda. Conversion Kit + Core set is meant to. There's other cards in there (Luke, for example) that aren't available in either the waves or the kits.

It looks like Afterburners is the 2nd Edition version of San San City Grid or whatever else thing you only get 1 of in the core of any given FFG game.

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5 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

See:

Literally the comment above yours, dude.....

I never recommended buying multiple cores for multiple copies.  I simply pointed out that it's in the core, so every faction has access to at least one copy.

Ultimately, it comes down to how we interpret "you shouldn't have to buy ships outside your faction to get upgrades".  You interpret that to mean "I can get as many copies as I want of an upgrade without buying out-of-faction" whereas I interpret it to mean "I can access at least one copy of an upgrade without buying out-of-faction".

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2 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Ultimately, it comes down to how we interpret "you shouldn't have to buy ships outside your faction to get upgrades".  You interpret that to mean "I can get as many copies as I want of an upgrade without buying out-of-faction" whereas I interpret it to mean "I can access at least one copy of an upgrade without buying out-of-faction".

Actually, I think both of you are just disagreeing about where on the spectrum between those two ends something stops being reasonable, not actually over the principle in theory.

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3 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

Well, kinda. Conversion Kit + Core set is meant to. There's other cards in there (Luke, for example) that aren't available in either the waves or the kits.

I see your point, I guess I misspoke a little.

All the contents of the wave 1 expansions are supposed to be in the conversion kits. If there's an upgrade in one of the expansions that's not in the conversion kits, then that promise is a lie. 

4 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

You interpret that to mean "I can get as many copies as I want of an upgrade without buying out-of-faction"

How is there any other way to interpret it?

4 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I interpret it to mean "I can access at least one copy of an upgrade without buying out-of-faction".

Even if you do interpret it as such, why is that okay? What's your solution for getting more than one copy?

Why is that an unreasonable goal for a non-limited upgrade card? 

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Just now, JJ48 said:

Oh, you want more than one copy?  Your best bet is to see what expansions it comes in and buy one of those.

Right.

It comes in the Fang Fighter.

Which is Scum, and not a faction I play. 

So your solution for me, as a Rebel player, to get more copies of a card I might want is to buy a ship outside of my faction. Which is exactly what FFG said we wouldn't have to do.

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51 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

But afterburners is new?

yes. so? I'm sorry I don't understand what you're asking exactly. My issue is that if it's in the fang pack and not the scum conversion kit the statement of "All of the ship and upgrade cards included in the Fang Fighter Expansion Pack can also be found in the Scum and Villainy Conversion Kit." Is untrue. I'm expecting Afterburners to not be in there. But the spread in the preview article for the Fang implies it's included. Wouldn't be the first time the spread was wrong. guess we'll see.

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6 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

Right.

It comes in the Fang Fighter.

Which is Scum, and not a faction I play. 

So your solution for me, as a Rebel player, to get more copies of a card I might want is to buy a ship outside of my faction. Which is exactly what FFG said we wouldn't have to do.

Which you won't. You won't HAVE to. You do have to wait until wave 2 before it's in a rebel pack. Maybe wave three.  

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3 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

Right.

It comes in the Fang Fighter.

Which is Scum, and not a faction I play. 

So your solution for me, as a Rebel player, to get more copies of a card I might want is to buy a ship outside of my faction. Which is exactly what FFG said we wouldn't have to do.

Based on your interpretation.  By my interpretation, their statement only regarded having access to at least one copy, and said nothing about getting additional copies.

10 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

I see your point, I guess I misspoke a little.

All the contents of the wave 1 expansions are supposed to be in the conversion kits. If there's an upgrade in one of the expansions that's not in the conversion kits, then that promise is a lie. 

Now, this is just outright disingenuous.  "What I said didn't perfectly match what I, myself, intended, so I misspoke.  A simple, honest mistake."

Whereas

"What FFG's article-writer wrote some time back doesn't perfectly match what the developers and/or management intended by the time of release, so IT WAS A DELIBERATE LIE!"

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