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Commander Kaine

Classic TIE swarm VS 5 X-Wings in 2.0

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1 hour ago, Commander Kaine said:

Literally anything? 

Linked focus barrel roll

Or linked barrel roll evade

Or sloops

Or a ship ability

Or better blues

 

 

I'm not saying it should be the the new jumpmaster, but if there are buffs across the board, they should be included as well. 

 

 

Oh btw. Your point about the y wing is extremely disingenuous. It should not have gotten any rolls... if vader didn't get a red boost, they should not get a red roll. It makes no sense (unlike a boost.for the advanced) and a free expert handling is still great, however you wanna put it.

I'm not sure why you're comparing Vader getting a red Boost to Y-Wings getting a red Barrel Roll. They are extremely different ships. Why does it make sense for the Advanced to get a Boost, anyway? It's listed speed on Wookiepedia is the same as the TIE/LN. Additionally, the devs probably didn't want Vader to become Soontir Fel with the Force? I believe they've been aiming to have only interceptor-class ships with double repositions, so they only gave the Advanced the Barrel Roll for that reason. 

They have mentioned specifically that they put the Barrel Roll on the Y-Wing because they do one in the Trench Run. Plus, it still moves like a sleepy bantha, even if it does have a reposition option. Then, if a pilot ability punishes stressed ships, those Y-Wings won't want to roll anyway.

----

As for the TIEs, I do wish they got something, like maybe 2 blue turns, but they've always been baseline for the game and they left it the same, which probably means we'll have an easier time knowing about how good things are. They have some pretty cool unique pilots with good buff abilities, which could be why they didn't change the action bar and dial.

If you want S-loops, fly First Order when it drops.

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While I understand the many Imperial players' affection for their most iconic ship colors their perception, the Tie Fighter needs to be compared to the Z-95, not the X-wing. Comparing the two... The rebel Z-95 was better in a straight joust due to it's higher pilot skill on paper. In practice the Tie Fighter's superior dial+manueverability made it the superior choice in most cases because pure jousts are rare in actual play. So if we set the Tie Fighter as the base for game balance in 2.0, the z-95 needed a slight boost. It gained a red barrel roll, a red 4k, and a green 3 forward. That feels like a little much even with the drop in pilot skill, so I would put the Bandit and Binayre at 25 to the Academy Pilot's 24. Not a huge difference, but enough that the 8 Tie Swarm gets 1 Ace or can upgrade at least some of the swarm to obsidian squadron pilots.

Comparing the X-wing to the Tie Advanced, its actual imperial counterpart... the X-wing has a definate edge, especially at lower initiatives where target locks are a pain. I'd say 5 Tempest Squadron Pilots (or whatever their equivalent is) is fine, but Blue squaddies should be stuck at 4.

Edited by Squark

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1 hour ago, Praetorate of the Empire said:

I'm not sure why you're comparing Vader getting a red Boost to Y-Wings getting a red Barrel Roll. They are extremely different ships. Why does it make sense for the Advanced to get a Boost, anyway? It's listed speed on Wookiepedia is the same as the TIE/LN. Additionally, the devs probably didn't want Vader to become Soontir Fel with the Force? I believe they've been aiming to have only interceptor-class ships with double repositions, so they only gave the Advanced the Barrel Roll for that reason. 

They have mentioned specifically that they put the Barrel Roll on the Y-Wing because they do one in the Trench Run. Plus, it still moves like a sleepy bantha, even if it does have a reposition option. Then, if a pilot ability punishes stressed ships, those Y-Wings won't want to roll anyway.

----

As for the TIEs, I do wish they got something, like maybe 2 blue turns, but they've always been baseline for the game and they left it the same, which probably means we'll have an easier time knowing about how good things are. They have some pretty cool unique pilots with good buff abilities, which could be why they didn't change the action bar and dial.

If you want S-loops, fly First Order when it drops.

Because the Y-wings have as much right to barrel roll, than the Advanced has to boost. It's a hulking, cumbersome ship, that shouldn't have ANY reposition. 

PLUS, the Punisher has both a barrel roll and a boost, so they could have given it to Vader as well. 

Also, because Vader was never used without an Engine upgrade. Ever. That ship needs it. And because it's an iconic ship. We don't see the S-foils have ANY functionality in the movies, yet they've given mechanics to them. 

 

My problem with "answers" like this, is that the people who say them (and FFG), don't seem to apply the same kind of logic to other ships. 

 

Sure, the X-wing can get a random buff, that makes no sense in lorewise, and it's all fine, because it's iconic. 

BUT the imperial counterpart of the ship gets much much weaker in every regard, except the main pilot. 

Now, an X-wing can have a better dial with the droid upgrade (the TIE MKII inexplicably disappeared, so Imperials simply don't have an option to upgrade their dials), and has more repositions than the Advanced. And Evade was removed from the Advanced, and got nothing instead. And the Advanced wasn't doing WELL before, except Vader, which really needed the EU upgrade. (now you can only use it twice). 

I'd argue that the regular advanced and Y-wing are quite similar ships in their performance, in 1.0. One of them got buffed, the other, arguably, nerfed. 

I don't care for the Y-wing at all.. I just don't like to see that the approach towards the Y-wing and the Advanced is so obviously different, when both ships needed help. (Except Vader)

 

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Advanced will be fine if it is costed appropriately (ie Xwings should be four in a squad, advance should be five)

They've got an interesting dichotomy in that they're **** without TL but normal with, so if they're cheap (like 36, ie 1.0 Alpha Squadron Interceptors) they'll be more efficient than the X if flown well

We can't entirely judge 2nd Ed by 1st Ed standards with points cost being as up in the air as they are. The Advance "losing" stuff is irrelevant if it's balanced by a deservedly cheaper cost 

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3 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Because the Y-wings have as much right to barrel roll, than the Advanced has to boost. It's a hulking, cumbersome ship, that shouldn't have ANY reposition. 

PLUS, the Punisher has both a barrel roll and a boost, so they could have given it to Vader as well. 

Also, because Vader was never used without an Engine upgrade. Ever. That ship needs it. And because it's an iconic ship. We don't see the S-foils have ANY functionality in the movies, yet they've given mechanics to them. 

Alright, I'm predominantly an Imperial player, so I feel the alleged "unfairness", but I've been playing Vader with Juke, ATC, and sometimes TIE mk.II to great effect, so your "never used without Engine Upgrade. Ever." is lost on me. Sure, he can get shot at, but does a pretty good job at evading even TLT. I've even come out unscathed against the Ghost in-arc and survived Fenn Rau with Vader. So, I certainly understand the value of throwing EU on him, but don't make sweeping absolute statements as if they were facts because it's just untrue and it's unbecoming.

 

25 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

My problem with "answers" like this, is that the people who say them (and FFG), don't seem to apply the same kind of logic to other ships.

And no, we don't see any functionality in the movies, but we do see Hera do some fancy S-foil stuff in Rebels, plus if they didn't have ANY functionality, why did anyone bother to lock their S-foils in attack position? There's got to be something. So the devs made something out of it. 

My "answers" are not illogical just because they don't agree with you. I'm not naive enough to say that there isn't any bias against the Empire; there very well could be some against the big bads of Star Wars. But consider this: the Y-Wing, which was originally, in the game, used as a turret carrier had its primarily used weapons nerfed, not buffed. The secondary weapon turret especially took a hit. So the Y-Wing, which already melted fast, really took a hit. We might be able to say that it gained some more versatility in its choices of weaponry since Bombs, Mines, and Torps are likely better, but we have no hard evidence until costs come along. So they give it a situationally decent reposition which makes their next move extremely predictable, who cares? You know where it'll be the following turn, plus on the turn it does it won't have any modifiers of any kind, which the Y-Wing really needs on both offense and its pathetic defense. If can dodge a couple arcs, fine, but I'm still going to shred it with my TIE Fighters while the TIE Advanced sits well defended and at Range 2-3 where it wants to be anyway.

44 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Sure, the X-wing can get a random buff, that makes no sense in lorewise, and it's all fine, because it's iconic. 

BUT the imperial counterpart of the ship gets much much weaker in every regard, except the main pilot. 

The TIE Advanced isn't exactly "weaker in every regard." Its offense should be stronger across the board with built-in ATC and an available System slot; the generics can actually afford to use ATC. The dial got a buff. In contrast to the Y-Wing, it can pick up a dice mod AND Barrel Roll. The biggest hit it took was losing the Evade action which, I admit, hurts me quite a bit since Juke Vader is my favorite Vader build, but would be a monster. The Missiles, on the other hand and less importantly, could make the TIE Advanced a more viable missile carrier since it would get more than one good shot off, which should be considered a buff.

Additionally, the TIE Advanced is only iconic because of the main pilot, who is reportedly the best starfighter pilot in the galaxy, but with the Evade and/or Boost, he just becomes too nimble to be priced reasonably, too survivable to be priced reasonably, or just too OP in general. If the rest of the pilots take a hit so people can feasibly field Vader, the best Force wielder in the game, so be it. Somewhere along the line, lore or mechanics have to take a hit for the sake of the balance of the game.

1 hour ago, Commander Kaine said:

Now, an X-wing can have a better dial with the droid upgrade (the TIE MKII inexplicably disappeared, so Imperials simply don't have an option to upgrade their dials), and has more repositions than the Advanced.

The TIE Advanced dial allows it to be a pretty decent knife-fighter, which the X-Wing will still not be great at, especially when Boosting. It'll certainly be better at it, but mostly from those Tallon Rolls and Barrel Rolls, not the Boost from S-foils. The X-Wing will likely remain a strong jouster, which a TIE Advanced can outmaneuver with clever piloting. The TIE mk.II does hurt, but its disappearance is far from inexplicable: the TIE Defender got super-buffed. Also, the removal of TIE mk.II and wiser dial design could open some design space.

 

1 hour ago, Commander Kaine said:

I'd argue that the regular advanced and Y-wing are quite similar ships in their performance, in 1.0. One of them got buffed, the other, arguably, nerfed. 

I don't care for the Y-wing at all.. I just don't like to see that the approach towards the Y-wing and the Advanced is so obviously different, when both ships needed help. (Except Vader)

 

Arguably nerfed, meh, somewhat. The loss of the Evade action was the most outright nerf, but the rest of the chassis was actually buffed. The Evade action itself was nerfed anyhow, so its removal from the chassis is less important.

I still very much disagree that the Y-Wing and Advanced are similar as the Y-Wing is a versatile weapons platform while the Advanced is a technologically advanced superiority fighter. It fills a role akin to the X-Wing in all except appearance, even in its loadout. The Y-Wing is really unlike anything that the Empire fields since it is such a multi-purpose fighter. It will fill roles like that of the TIE Aggressor and Bomber, just not quite as well as the latter, for sure.

I guess not caring for the ship means you can blow it to pieces with a vengeance, then. 

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3 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Advanced will be fine if it is costed appropriately (ie Xwings should be four in a squad, advance should be five)

They've got an interesting dichotomy in that they're **** without TL but normal with, so if they're cheap (like 36, ie 1.0 Alpha Squadron Interceptors) they'll be more efficient than the X if flown well

We can't entirely judge 2nd Ed by 1st Ed standards with points cost being as up in the air as they are. The Advance "losing" stuff is irrelevant if it's balanced by a deservedly cheaper cost 

Yeah. Sure. We might get an Advanced article this week, and it COULD turn out that the ship is ridiculously cheap. 

 

However, I have two problems

 

A, I don't believe that will happen. I'm 80% sure 5 X-Wings will be a thing, but even if they are not, I doubt FFG will make ANY imperial craft capable of appearing in greater numbers. But this is entirely my subjective opinion, albeit based on FFG's atrocious treatment of balancing rebels before... So not entirely impossible. 

B, My problem with the Advanced is not that it won't be probably okay. It might be. My problem is that it was built around Vader, which they said they wouldn't do, because Vader can cost ANYTHING now, so there is no reason to hold the ship back, AND that it isn't an Advanced ship really. It's not the best at anything. It is not the specialized craft that it is supposed to be, and we were promised as our faction identity. Vader's personal craft shouldn't be a throwaway ship you can field 5 of. It doesn't FEEL threatening ship. 

The fact that Vader would like to sit in pretty much ANY other TIE ship, is a dead give away that something is wrong with this. 

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The ship isn't necessarily built around Vader, due to the cost thing. The Advance could be eh, super cheap, but still strong

Though going by what little lore there is, the TIE Advance isn't a wonder ship. It's just an Advanced TIE Fighter prototype which was later used to inspire the Interceptor and Defender

Now the Defender IS a super ship 

Also I would contest Vader wanting to be in any other ship. Sure ANYONE would want to fly a Defender over an Advanced. But an Interceptor? A Striker? A fighter? Buggers are squishy and can't even target lock! 

Plus a defender Vader would have to be at least 75% of your list because ****** what a nightmare that'd be 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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5 minutes ago, Praetorate of the Empire said:

The TIE Advanced isn't exactly "weaker in every regard." Its offense should be stronger across the board with built-in ATC and an available System slot; the generics can actually afford to use ATC. The dial got a buff. In contrast to the Y-Wing, it can pick up a dice mod AND Barrel Roll. The biggest hit it took was losing the Evade action which, I admit, hurts me quite a bit since Juke Vader is my favorite Vader build, but would be a monster. The Missiles, on the other hand and less importantly, could make the TIE Advanced a more viable missile carrier since it would get more than one good shot off, which should be considered a buff.

It is, mostly. 

The built in ATC frees up the system slot, but: 

It doesn't add a result, it rolls an additional dice, and turns a hit into crit. So basically, IF the ship has a lock, it can be a pseudo mangler cannon. Which is roughly the equivalent of a 3 dice attack, but slightly worse, because of TL requirement (which is not completely offset by the mangler effect) 

It frees up the system slot, but: 

Advanced sensor was rewritten to not have synergy with Vader, using it is extremely situational, and you kinda lose the value of the pilot. 

FCS no longer grants action economy, and just a single re-roll, which isn't bad, but it isn't great either. It's basically predator. But now you can spend locks, so if you roll more than 1 blank, you are f#cked. 

Collision detector... I guess if you want a cheap vader... but why would you want a cheap vader? 

Trajectory doesn't work with them. 

 

So offense wise, the ship actually got WEAKER. 

 

EU (afterburners) can only be used twice in a game. That's worse. The other mods are kinda meh to bad, made a post about it. 

 

So what the ship got in the 2nd edition is: 

Better dial, but not a great dial. 

And the ability to equip 2 (meh) mods. 

 

What the ship lost: 

Evade

The ability to equip Unlimited boost

Offensive power

19 minutes ago, Praetorate of the Empire said:

 

The TIE Advanced dial allows it to be a pretty decent knife-fighter, which the X-Wing will still not be great at, especially when Boosting. It'll certainly be better at it, but mostly from those Tallon Rolls and Barrel Rolls, not the Boost from S-foils. The X-Wing will likely remain a strong jouster, which a TIE Advanced can outmaneuver with clever piloting. The TIE mk.II does hurt, but its disappearance is far from inexplicable: the TIE Defender got super-buffed. Also, the removal of TIE mk.II and wiser dial design could open some design space.

 

 

The X-Wing can equip the astro droid, getting a better dial than an Interceptor, and dance around the advanced as much as they please. Or they can regenerate shields, while kiting away with boost. 

The Defender buff is vastly overrated by everyone around here. Having 5 actions is significantly less powerful, if you can't chain them together. If the rumors are true, and you can only bring 2 defenders (which seems to be the case), they actually got weaker. 

17 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

The ship isn't necessarily built around Vader, due to the cost thing. The Advance could be eh, super cheap, but still strong

Though going by what little lore there is, the TIE Advance isn't a wonder ship. It's just an Advanced TIE Fighter prototype which was later used to inspire the Interceptor and Defender

Now the Defender IS a super ship 

Also I would contest Vader wanting to be in any other ship. Sure ANYONE would want to fly a Defender over an Advanced. But an Interceptor? A Striker? A fighter? Buggers are squishy and can't even target lock! 

Eh... It so is? 

The loss of Evade can only be explained by Vader and the Force (which would be pretty powerful)


Sure, it was just a better TIE fighter, but it was also the precursor for:

The Interceptor, The Defender, and the Aggressor

Some similarities would be nice. What did the Interceptor "inherit" from the Advanced? Nothing. 

 

Also, I said "pretty much any other ship". Vader would not like to sit in a basic TIE and a Striker (if it has a gunner he  might). But I'd take Vader in an Interceptor (IN 6, with 3 Force, double reposition, native 3 dice attack? Heck yeah.. You could do Supernatural reflexes, interceptor ability, do a blue move, remove stress, perform a regular action (evade), and then still get a focus. And you have 1 force token remaining.) And pretty much anything else as well. Phantom? Yes. Aggressor is questionable, but that's also a pretty bad ship. Bomber? Instinctive Aim is begging for it. Punisher vader would be hilarious. Defender, we don't even need to discuss. He'd even prefer the (supposedly) inferior craft of the Inquisitor. Reaper? Oh god, i'd love that. 


So when you have the literally best pilot ability in the game, which would have INSANE synergy in almost every other ship, and you feel kinda restricted in your own, that's the sign that the ship was designed around the pilot ability. 

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Not much of a metric. If you put anything on a "better" platform, of course the other ship wont look as good.

Luke (pilot) would much rather be on the E-wing or yt2400, but he ain't. Doesn't make the X bad.

Likewise, the idea of Vader going on the premium and more expensive ships of the faction shouldn't make the Advance look worse. 

Or, to flip the script, putting Countdown on something "better" than a Striker would be obscene. Doesn't make the Striker bad or mean it was designed around Countdown. Or how about "Wampa" in a 3 die primary? Rudor in a Defender?

Finally, the loss of evade is a nonissue. The standard Evade action SUCKS in 2.0 and the only way you'd ever take one over a focus is if you're taking a single shot from a 2-die attack or are a 1 agi ship with no available targets (though even then, the reaper would probably jam if it could). It shouldnt affect the bottom line of the Advance in even the slightest way.

Really, the Advance only got better in 2.0, with a lateral move from 1.0 ATC (no auto result but can spend TL and has an open system slot) with a far improved dial and a linked action. It's similar to how the Xwing lost FAA but got servos benefits built into its dial. 

All that's left for the Advance to be just dandy is its point cost. Once that's deemed acceptable, you can start engineering evil lists with the likes of Jendon or Tarkin 

 

 

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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9 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Not much of a metric. If you put anything on a "better" platform, of course the other ship wont look as good.

Luke (pilot) would much rather be on the E-wing or yt2400, but he ain't. Doesn't make the X bad.

Likewise, the idea of Vader going on the premium and more expensive ships of the faction shouldn't make the Advance look worse. 

Or, to flip the script, putting Countdown on something "better" than a Striker would be obscene. Doesn't make the Striker bad or mean it was designed around Countdown. Or how about "Wampa" in a 3 die primary? Rudor in a Defender?

Finally, the loss of evade is a nonissue. The standard Evade action SUCKS in 2.0 and the only way you'd ever take one over a focus is if you're taking a single shot from a 2-die attack or are a 1 agi ship with no available targets (though even then, the reaper would probably jam if it could). It shouldnt affect the bottom line of the Advance in even the slightest way.

Really, the Advance only got better in 2.0, with a lateral move from 1.0 ATC (no auto result but can spend TL and has an open system slot) with a far improved dial and a linked action. It's similar to how the Xwing lost FAA but got servos benefits built into its dial. 

All that's left for the Advance to be just dandy is its point cost. Once that's deemed acceptable, you can start engineering evil lists with the likes of Jendon or Tarkin 

 

tenor.gif?itemid=8872690

 

Okay. What do you do with Vader in this hypothetical scenario which never happens: 

You roll a blank on your @ficklegreendice

The only time you would take the Evade action with Vader, is every turn. Because you can turn a single focus to evade with the Force, but you can't do anything with blanks. 

The only time when the evade change affects Vader, if he rolls 3 evades. (or evades and focus)

Now - he asked sarcastically - which do YOU, @ficklegreendice, think is more likely, with green dice... Rolling paint or rolling blanks? 

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Vader isn't the bottom line of the TIE Advance, is he?

The TIE Advance at large doesn't lose a dang thing from not being able to evade. So, in the case of the ship being designed around a single pilot, it clearly wasn't as this omission won't affect the vast majority of pilots (literally everyone but Vader) in the slightest

For Vader himself, he got action independent Forcus and up to 3 actions a turn to compensate

Non-issue. 

Luke basically lost r2d2 (good Lord he's  not even comparable to his 1.0 self) and you don't hear him complaining

Edited by ficklegreendice

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1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

Vader isn't the bottom line of the TIE Advance, is he?

The TIE Advance at large doesn't lose a dang thing from not being able to evade. So, in the case of the ship being designed around a single pilot, it clearly wasn't as this omission won't affect the vast majority of pilots (literally everyone but Vader) in the slightest

For Vader himself, he got action independent Forcus and up to 3 actions a turn to compensate

Non-issue. 

Luke basically lost r2d2 (good Lord he's  not even comparable to his 1.0 self) and you don't hear him complaining

Dude... you make zero sense. 

Juke can turn evade into an offensive action. Keeping locks and evading would make the Advanced so much better. 

 

How is this a non issue? Every pilot on that ship could use Evade to a great effect. Most people agree with this. You saying random things won't change that. But, we can test your theory. 

Proxy 2.0 Vader against himself, 1 on 1. one version has Evade, the other doesn't. Play 10 games, switching initiative between the two after the 5th. Identical builds. If you think Vader haven't lost anything by not having Evade, there should be no discernable difference in the outcome. You can do this with any other Advanced pilot. 

Action independent ways to modify focus results are good, but they are not as good, as spending one of those force points to switch a blank result to an evade result. There is nothing here you can argue against. One of them is useful 2/8 times, and you can have other ways to acquire that mod, while the other is useful 3/8 times, and there is no way to currently get that modification. Vader could exchange these at will using his ability. 

Luke lost R2 like Vader lost EU. They became more limited, and fairer. The difference is, Luke can still boost, while Vader could never regen (and he doesn't have pseudo regen with evades) anymore. The reason you don't see Luke complaining, is because the two things are not comparable (Vader lost evade all together, while Luke didn't lose regen). 

 

You can disagree with me all you want, but try and do it with something that makes sense. These last two posts don't. 

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Okay, I thought about some Advanced builds. 



I think the generic with: 

Clusters, Debris gambit, Collision detector and Afterburners

could be a fun build. But I think a build like that will be around a third of your list. Which is horrible. I hope it will be closer to 50. 

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5 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Okay, I thought about some Advanced builds. 



I think the generic with: 

Clusters, Debris gambit, Collision detector and Afterburners

could be a fun build. But I think a build like that will be around a third of your list. Which is horrible. I hope it will be closer to 50. 

I'd do it without the Afterburners.

Don't get me wrong; boost is my favorite action! But unfortunately, I doubt AB will be cost effective except at Initiative 5 or 6 (maybe 4 with a good bid) and spamming them will almost always be a waste. Barrel roll is still technically more versatile anyway. We'll just have to get used to using it more effectively. ?

Loving the Debris Gambit/Collision Detector synergy though!

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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5 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I'd do it without the Afterburners.

Don't get me wrong; boost is my favorite action! But unfortunately, I doubt AB will be cost effective except at Initiative 5 or 6 (maybe 4 with a good bid) and spamming them will almost always be a waste. Barrel roll is still technically more versatile anyway. We'll just have to get used to using it more effectively. ?

Yeah, I see your point. 

 

I think brolling and using the smallest rocks you can use it to great effect. You can completely move to the other side of them, to grant you obstruction. 

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While I get the overall concerns in this thread I feel a bit too much is being made of a few elements. Especially the TIE Advanced stuff. 

Honestly the concerns about the numbers game is fair, we are in a wait and see mode. However, outside the recent changes for X-wings in 1.0 to make them relevant in a meta where TIE swarms are absent it’s not a good view of game design. I sense it will go back to 4 X-wing’s vs 8 TIE’s maintaining the 2-1 ratio. 

As for the Advanced saying it is far worse is akin to the cries about the TIE Phantom. You either like the look of the changes or you don’t. CK clearly doesn’t. What is needed is to see it in practice and fielded in list(s) to see how it really looks and acts. Maarek isn’t changed hardly at all. He still looks terrifying and with the redone Marksmanship could be a truer terror than Vader. 

The most interesting thing with Vader is how he will interact within a squad. A coordinator in a Lambda or Reaper plus his own Talent could be as bonkers as it gets. 

As for things like MKII’s and LWF. I don’t believe they’re gone. They might be held back to see if they end up being truly necessary. With fewer stressing mechanisms it makes sense to not toss something out just to do it. If it turns out they are not needed. They could redo them for a purpose that does make them useful.

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OP, while the classic TIE swarm is almost certainly permanently dead in competitive play (even if it were good, it'd die on MoV, and it'll never be 5-1 good in the hands of average players) the mixed bag swarm is going to be a thing. with 4 TIE aces that can roll an extra die and Howlrunner to give a bonus die, all operating at higher PS than most X-wings, they're looking to PS-snipe one and a half X-wings before they shoot.

That's probably putting you around 150-155 points for 5 TIE aces (including Wampa). After that, you've probably got enough left in the bank for either a Reaper (for ace disruption), a lambda (for general support and tanking) or a bomber/gunboat with some decent munitions. It seems solid to me, and I finally have enough TIEs to look forward to flying a true swarm in 2.0!

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I only skimmed the first page of this dirty pool, so pardon if I'm about to redundant-ify your lives.

Despite what devs have said to the contrary, I'm betting that academy TIEs are going down in cost after a couple of waves.

They have to. 

10 TIEs would not break the game. 

I really think so. 

The 12% percentile is just too high, especially after all these power ships start coming back. 

Can 2 TIE Defenders take on 10 Academies? 

I think so. 

Speculation, yes. But I still think so. 

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18 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

I'm not saying it should be the the new jumpmaster, but if there are buffs across the board, they should be included as well. 

1) Why?

2) There haven't been buffs across the board.

Many ships have been buffed, yes. But many ships have been nerfed, too (JM5k, TIE Phantom, Falcon). Many ships are largely the same (B-Wing, Scyk)

I think it's more accurate to say most ships have been adjusted because, crucially (and I can't believe I'm having to say this yet again), we don't know the points cost for anything. Ships have been refocused and redefined into certain niches.

The TIE Defender has unquestionably been buffed in terms of chassis, but is supposedly now so expensive that you can't fit more than two of even the named generics in a list. Is that a net buff? A net nerf? We don't know yet. It's been adjusted to a new role, and when we have the ability to properly build lists and get it on the table, we'll know which way the pendulum actually swung.

I think you're also forgetting just how efficient the TIE Fighter was in the first 3-5 waves of 1e. It eventually became useless when the power creep got too much, but that creep has been heavily curtailed across 2e. By staying almost identical in terms of chassis and point cost, the TIE Fighter is closer to what it is in the earlier waves of 1e. Other ships have been buffed because they were too far behind the TIE Fighter's efficiency curve. 

18 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

disingenuous

I don't think you know what that word means.

My comment on the Y-Wing was completely sincere. Saying that 'most other ships got reposition actions' does not describe the full picture of the change, that is literally the only point I made.

The Y-Wing gets a barrel roll, yes, but it's red. This is something brand new to 2e and something that I think is a really important distinction. It's a whole new level of granularity in balance, and to ignore the stress cost is missing a large part of the point of the change. The Y-Wing is not now as maneuverable as a TIE Fighter. Just as its dial in 1e was demonstrably worse than the X-Wing's because of all the red, so too is this action fundamentally worse than the TIE Fighter's barrel roll. 

It's important to remember that.

19 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

if vader didn't get a red boost, they should not get a red roll.

False equivalence if ever I've seen one.

19 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

It makes no sense

Your opinion.

One I personally don't understand.

19 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

and a free expert handling is still great, however you wanna put it.

Ah, there's the rub, isn't it?

You're assuming much there. What if it's not free? What if the Y-Wing now has a base cost that is more than just double its 1e cost?

If you'd read my full comment, you would say I actually already asked that. What if the Y-Wing is paying for its access to a red barrel roll by being more expensive?

Yes, yes there's no 'opportunity cost' by having it take up your EPT but that's not the point I'm making.

The point is that throwing around accusations of what's fair, what's balanced and what's not is meaningless when we don't know how the point costs have also been changed.

15 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

Because the Y-wings have as much right to barrel roll, than the Advanced has to boost. It's a hulking, cumbersome ship, that shouldn't have ANY reposition. 

 

Firstly, the Y-Wing is not that cumbersome. You can see from the films that it's basically up there with the X-Wing and TIE Fighter in terms of speed, and it's maneuverable enough to keep with the X-Wings and A-Wings in the DSII tunnel. Indeed, the only ship we see crash in those tunnels is a TIE Fighter. The ILM production chart for how to film the different ships in RotJ shows the Y-Wing, X-Wing and TIE Fighter as all being basically equal in terms of maneuverablity and speed. 

Secondly, that's not hugely relevant anyway.

The key thing here is gameplay. It doesn't take a genius to realise that, in almost all cases, the ships that got left behind in 1e are the ones that completely lacked any reposition action, because the ability to tweak you maneuver after gaining some or all of the board state information, as well as have the option to trigger or not, and some options about direction is huge

FFG realised this, and they came up with what I think is a very clever means of offering some of those reposition benefits to almost all ships without making all ships the same - the red action. As I said before, the level of granularity it brings is fantastic. Y-Wings have gained the ability to tweak their firing arcs or position better around obstacles, and I think it's going to make them so much more relevant than any changes to ordnance or turrets. But that access comes with a cost that not every ship has, and it makes it a choice.

It's good for the game.

I don't think that the TIE Fighter (remember what this thread was originally about) loses anything by the Y-Wing gaining a red barrel roll. 

Now after all that, it may surprise you to learn that I agree with you about the TIE Advanced.

'I've not mentioned that up to now because it's not what the thread was about it, and it's been largely irrelevant to the points I've been making.

The TIE Advanced has lost out vs the X-Wing. It should have kept the evade action or been given a red boost (as you suggested, it's a good one for the reasons of granularity I gave above - helps it without stepping on the Interceptor's toes) and very possibly both. 

Unfortunately, I think the exact same thing has happened as happened in 1e - the Advanced has been held back as a whole chassis because of Vader. Vader has options to take actions before his maneuver, and could very easily have taken a barrel roll, a target lock and a red boost before clearing the stress with a blue thanks to Supernatural Reflexes. With the red boost not being limiting enough on him, they obviously designed the Advanced so that Vader could only boost and barrel roll twice a game, and only after his maneuver, not before.

I think that's a shame for the ship as a whole, and we'll just have to hope that it can be saved in costing. It should be at least 33% cheaper than an equivalent Initiative X-Wing, IMO. But lastly, don't rule out missiles and Munitions Failsafe on it just yet. I know they were crap in 1e, but the Advanced might end up loving them in 2e

14 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

The X-Wing can equip the astro droid, getting a better dial than an Interceptor

I do take issue with this, though. I think you're hurting yourself with hyperbole. 

R4 Astromech is technically less efficient on X-Wings in 2e than R2 Astro was in 1e, because in 2e the two banks are already blue.

Nobody ever considered the 1e X-Wing + R2 better than an Interceptor. Because it just isn't. The Interceptor has 1 hards, which is massive, and still has extra greens in the 3 and 4 speed straights (which was so important for clearing stress while bugging out, something the X-Wing has always struggled with).

With the astro equipped, both dials are almost the same as their 1e versions, except the X-Wing has gained tallon rolls and the Intercepor s-loops. That's pretty equal in my book.

The Interceptor still has the obviously better dial. Don't be silly. 

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1 hour ago, Bucknife said:

I only skimmed the first page of this dirty pool, so pardon if I'm about to redundant-ify your lives.

Despite what devs have said to the contrary, I'm betting that academy TIEs are going down in cost after a couple of waves.

They have to. 

10 TIEs would not break the game. 

I really think so. 

The 12% percentile is just too high, especially after all these power ships start coming back. 

Can 2 TIE Defenders take on 10 Academies? 

I think so. 

Speculation, yes. But I still think so. 

Generally speaking, I'm not a huge fan of single ship spam. It's just not interesting. It's basically boiling the game down to which ship chassis is the most points-efficient, which... who cares*? Playing against 8 academy pilots is tedious enough; even people who really know what they're doing are going to take some time to move all those ships and tokens around. I definitely don't want to see 10.

Now that's not to say that they can't drop in cost. But if they did I'd definitely prefer to see a rule that prevented single ship spam. Make academy pilots super cheap, but restrict the number of identical generics you can field. So no 10-ship lists, but you could run a strong ace with a solid support and also fit in a four TIE mini-swarm. That's a lot less boring to fly against while still giving some of that sweet, sweet raw numbers TIE spam the Empire is known and loved(?) for. Running 10 of a ship should be the realm of epic.

 

*besides people who need to complain about faction balance on the forums ?

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TIEs could still be cheaper without breaking the 8 ship ceiling (which we really shouldn't if we want to be able to manuever anywhere through the clutter)

For example, your basic academy TIE would still be around 11/12 1.0 points but you could shave points off of the named versions not named "Howlrunner"

You could further encourage TIEs by making stuff like Crackshot or Marksmanship 0 points (because they really ought to be, due to bullseye only) which makes the Black Squadron more attractive

Sure other ships could benefit from the cost reduction of these epts, but none so much as a ship you could spam (thereby putting more bullseyes on the table) 

Just keep the talent slot out of generic z-95 hands and you've got yourself a niche 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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34 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

TIEs could still be cheaper without breaking the 8 ship ceiling (which we really shouldn't if we want to be able to manuever anywhere through the clutter)

For example, your basic academy TIE would still be around 11/12 1.0 points but you could shave points off of the named versions not named "Howlrunner"

You could further encourage TIEs by making stuff like Crackshot or Marksmanship 0 points (because they really ought to be, due to bullseye only) which makes the Black Squadron more attractive

Sure other ships could benefit from the cost reduction of these epts, but none so much as a ship you could spam (thereby putting more bullseyes on the table) 

Just keep the talent slot out of generic z-95 hands and you've got yourself a niche 

I really hope they stay away from 0 point Upgrades. I think it just takes away from properly choosing one's Upgrades. The choice goes from "What does this add to my list" to "Meh, I don't have room for anything else, might as well bring 'Crack Shot'".

I think they should and will try to make things less auto-include throughout the design process.

They could, of course, somehow design Upgrades so that they cost less from ship to ship or give certain ships Titles that reduce the cost of Upgrades again, but that seems a little clunky for 2.0. Probably more doable with an app, though.

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4 hours ago, Bucknife said:

I only skimmed the first page of this dirty pool, so pardon if I'm about to redundant-ify your lives.

Despite what devs have said to the contrary, I'm betting that academy TIEs are going down in cost after a couple of waves.

They have to. 

10 TIEs would not break the game. 

I really think so. 

The 12% percentile is just too high, especially after all these power ships start coming back. 

Can 2 TIE Defenders take on 10 Academies? 

I think so. 

Speculation, yes. But I still think so. 

Actually it’s just the opposite.

What they’ve said is that they use the 24-point academy pilot as the baseline for pricing everything else. So it’s actually much more likely that the price of everything else goes way up than that the price of the TIE/ln goes down at all.

If you think about it, this makes a lot of sense: You don’t want price creep making games constantly bigger and bigger or smaller and smaller. They have to have an unchanging standard. And that’s the Academy Pilot.

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