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WotF Luke "showing" question

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Luke's card text says: "You may resolve the shield sides of this die as if they were melee damage". I was wondering how this interacted with certain card effects that require the dice be "showing" a certain symbol.

For example, Ataru Strike reads: "Resolve one of your Blue character dice showing melee damage, increaing its value by the number of shields on that character." Does Luke's shield die also count as "showing" melee damage and can therefore be resolved with the card effect as such? If so, how does this interact with melee-targeted removal?

My initial thoughts were that his dice do not "show" melee as per the definition in the Rules Reference ("A die side is showing if it is the faceup side after being rolled
into a dice pool") but some of the players on reddit and at my LGS disagree with me.

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when resolving... the shields can become melee... so you're good with Ataru.

But Guard or Close Quarters Assault, for example, don't resolve, so you couldn't use Luke's dice for either of those... inverse would be true for the Luke's Rod... couldn't use it for Trench Warfare

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I don't think you can, Luke is showing shields and even though you can resolve them as melee, they show shields and thats what Ataru strike asks for

Same thing with Zeb using Counter Stike for Ranged damage, he isn't showing it on the die face so it doesn't count

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This all falls under the same questions ive been asking FFG for Zeb and no response yet.

Knowing them they'll make it difficult rather than go with teh way people have been playing it (when resolving you may treat it as Melee for all purposes even though its showing Ranged/Shields for Zeb/Luke respectively).

But i havnt heard anything official yet, so i continue to play it that way.

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15 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

This all falls under the same questions ive been asking FFG for Zeb and no response yet.

Knowing them they'll make it difficult rather than go with teh way people have been playing it (when resolving you may treat it as Melee for all purposes even though its showing Ranged/Shields for Zeb/Luke respectively).

But i havnt heard anything official yet, so i continue to play it that way.

If you can't remove Luke's dice with Honor Guard or Defend, or reroll them with Sound the Alarm, you shouldn't be able to Ataru Strike with them

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1 minute ago, JoeyBriefcase said:

If you can't remove Luke's dice with Honor Guard or Defend, or reroll them with Sound the Alarm, you shouldn't be able to Ataru Strike with them

There's a major difference here.  With Honor Guard and Defend, you are removing the dice, not resolving them.  Any Remove effect is not going to be able to make use of Luke's ability.  

For that matter, Luke's ability ONLY applies to his controller, so an opponent is never going to be able to use Reluctant Instructor's ability, even when an effect allows them to resolve those dice.

For Luke's controller, any effect that allows them to resolve the dice is going to be able to use the ability.  For some reason the RRG has not been updated, but there is an FFG ruling in the interspace that says when you resolve a die "as if it were showing," it counts as showing that "as if" symbol. Since Ataru Strike is a Resolve effect, it can be used on Reluctant Instructor's dice showing shields.

t

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Except you are actually resolving it with Ataru Strike so his ability could kick in.

Like i said, its something FFG really needs to clarify because i can see the argument going both ways.

1) Ataru Strike must have a Melee showing to be chosen with the card and this happens before the act of resolving so Luke couldnt kick off yet.
2) Luke's ability can kick off before an effect looking for a Melee looks for one as long as its resolving.

Which way is it? FFG needs to clarify.

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Just now, Vineheart01 said:

Except you are actually resolving it with Ataru Strike so his ability could kick in.

Like i said, its something FFG really needs to clarify because i can see the argument going both ways.

1) Ataru Strike must have a Melee showing to be chosen with the card and this happens before the act of resolving so Luke couldnt kick off yet.
2) Luke's ability can kick off before an effect looking for a Melee looks for one as long as its resolving.

Which way is it? FFG needs to clarify.

I can see why people are confused, but I don't think it's because of the wording.  Ataru Strike says

"Resolve one of your Blue character dice showing melee...."

It starts with Resolve.  If it started with "choose a dice showing Melee," then the argument that this doesn't work would at least make some sense to me.  But because the effect begins with instructions to resolve, anything that can happen during a resolve effect is in play.

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6 minutes ago, kingbobb said:

There's a major difference here.  With Honor Guard and Defend, you are removing the dice, not resolving them.  Any Remove effect is not going to be able to make use of Luke's ability.  

For that matter, Luke's ability ONLY applies to his controller, so an opponent is never going to be able to use Reluctant Instructor's ability, even when an effect allows them to resolve those dice.

For Luke's controller, any effect that allows them to resolve the dice is going to be able to use the ability.  For some reason the RRG has not been updated, but there is an FFG ruling in the interspace that says when you resolve a die "as if it were showing," it counts as showing that "as if" symbol. Since Ataru Strike is a Resolve effect, it can be used on Reluctant Instructor's dice showing shields.

t

My main argument is that even though they remove or reroll, they have to target a die showing melee, same thing with Ataru Strike

You'd be resolving a die showing shields and thats not what Ataru strike says to do

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1 minute ago, JoeyBriefcase said:

My main argument is that even though they remove or reroll, they have to target a die showing melee, same thing with Ataru Strike

You'd be resolving a die showing shields and thats not what Ataru strike says to do

No, you'd be resolving a dice as if it were showing melee...which according to Jeremy's correspondence, is the same thing as it physically showing melee.  The reason why an opponent can never use Reluctant Instructor's ability is because they are not the controller, and don't have access to the ability.

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1 hour ago, kingbobb said:

No, you'd be resolving a dice as if it were showing melee...which according to Jeremy's correspondence, is the same thing as it physically showing melee.  The reason why an opponent can never use Reluctant Instructor's ability is because they are not the controller, and don't have access to the ability.

Actually, there is an argument that the opponent could resolve a Luke dice as melee as well, with something like "Paid off"

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33 minutes ago, Traxlenak said:

Actually, there is an argument that the opponent could resolve a Luke dice as melee as well, with something like "Paid off"

No because the ability is on Luke's card, not inherent to the dice.  

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29 minutes ago, Traxlenak said:

So, essentially only specials are inherent to the dice, and all other abilities are unusable by the opponent?

There’s a section in the RRG stating which dice have inherent dice abilities. I know ID9 is one, I can’t remember the others off the top of my head. 

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Specials or values of X are inherit die abilities, in a nutshell.

Anything else is actually the character or upgrade/support the die belongs to, i.e. "When you resolve this die..."

Specials do nothing unless they have the Special tied to it, so thats why thats allowed.
Value of X needs whatever is causing it to be the shown value otherwise its a broken die.

Both would be immune to stealing effects, which is a nono in game design.

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Ataru strike says "Resolve one of your Blue character dice showing melee damage, increasing its value by the number of shields on that character."  Luke dice don't show melee.

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3 hours ago, NachoAS said:

Ataru strike says "Resolve one of your Blue character dice showing melee damage, increasing its value by the number of shields on that character."  Luke dice don't show melee.

They count as showing melee damage when Luke's controller decides to resolve them as if they were showing melee.

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21 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

Specials or values of X are inherit die abilities, in a nutshell.

Anything else is actually the character or upgrade/support the die belongs to, i.e. "When you resolve this die..."

Specials do nothing unless they have the Special tied to it, so thats why thats allowed.
Value of X needs whatever is causing it to be the shown value otherwise its a broken die.

Both would be immune to stealing effects, which is a nono in game design.

This is somewhat incorrect as both Diplomatic Immunity and Vibroknife are both listed as having "inherit dice abilities." neither of which have an X value or special symbols and both of which have a "when you resolve this die" for the section on this:

Some cards have ongoing abilities on them which are considered to be inherent to the die, and always affect how the die resolves, independent of the card being in play. Inherent dice abilities other than specials never use the words “before” or “after” or “while.” Example: Diplomatic Immunity (r50) says “The shields from this die can be given to any of your characters, distributed as you wish.” The shields from this die can be split up regardless of whether the card is in play or not, such as when resolved through Poe Dameron’s (r29) special ability. • Dice with a non-special inherent die ability: Diplomatic Immunity (r50), Launch Bay (r31), Lure of Power (D16), ID-9 Seeker Droid (v13), Training Remote (v35), Gang Up (z68), Vibroknife (D57).

This list has not been updated in some time but to have Vibro and Diplomatic Immunity here and not allow Luke's to work the same way would seem to be contradictory. Further the text on his card DOES fit the Bolded criteria for a die having an inherit die ability as it does not have the before, after or While effects it simply reads "you may resolve the shield sides as if they were showing melee" sounds pretty inherent to me especially when put side by side with Diplomatic immunity or the erratta on Vibro which reads. "Damage dealt by this die or by dice it modifies is unblockable.”

Edited by tunewalker

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2 hours ago, tunewalker said:

This is somewhat incorrect as both Diplomatic Immunity and Vibroknife are both listed as having "inherit dice abilities." neither of which have an X value or special symbols and both of which have a "when you resolve this die" for the section on this:

Some cards have ongoing abilities on them which are considered to be inherent to the die, and always affect how the die resolves, independent of the card being in play. Inherent dice abilities other than specials never use the words “before” or “after” or “while.” Example: Diplomatic Immunity (r50) says “The shields from this die can be given to any of your characters, distributed as you wish.” The shields from this die can be split up regardless of whether the card is in play or not, such as when resolved through Poe Dameron’s (r29) special ability. • Dice with a non-special inherent die ability: Diplomatic Immunity (r50), Launch Bay (r31), Lure of Power (D16), ID-9 Seeker Droid (v13), Training Remote (v35), Gang Up (z68), Vibroknife (D57).

This list has not been updated in some time but to have Vibro and Diplomatic Immunity here and not allow Luke's to work the same way would seem to be contradictory. Further the text on his card DOES fit the Bolded criteria for a die having an inherit die ability as it does not have the before, after or While effects it simply reads "you may resolve the shield sides as if they were showing melee" sounds pretty inherent to me especially when put side by side with Diplomatic immunity or the erratta on Vibro which reads. "Damage dealt by this die or by dice it modifies is unblockable.”

Your application of the way Diplomatic Immunity works is the best reasoning I've seen in this discussion.  I think the wording and construction of the Luke card is different enough, but I'm falling on the side that the RRG or FAQ needs to address this, if only to clearly state that this is not meant to be an ability inherent to the die.

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5 hours ago, kingbobb said:

Your application of the way Diplomatic Immunity works is the best reasoning I've seen in this discussion.  I think the wording and construction of the Luke card is different enough, but I'm falling on the side that the RRG or FAQ needs to address this, if only to clearly state that this is not meant to be an ability inherent to the die.

Honestly I really hope they add it to the list of Inherent dice abilities. It is similar enough to both Diplomatic immunity and especially the eratta'd Vibro in wording that I feel it should be an inherent die ability, but I wont complain if they FAQ it as not, but they do really need to update the inherent die cards and more clearly define what is and is not inherent die so they dont have to update it every single time.

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The card does not say resolve them as if they were showing melee.  It says they may be resolved as melee.  So that means you get to choose melee or sheilds.

Ataru strike requires a specific die face to be present.  I'm on the "if you can't sound the alarm them you can't ataru strike them" train for this one.  

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