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MMOfan

I don't like this artificial twist in the Labyrinths of Lunacy Expansion...

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After playing for almost 4 hours with 4 investigators … we came to a feature that really kills the fun of this game for me in The Labyrinths of Lunacy.

So after witnessing how a certain scenario twist words to make some challenges absurd, I now downgraded this LCG. I am not going to waste 4 hours of my life to be confronted with an unsolvable playing mode.

Like letting only ONE member of a group turn in his clues to solve a problem (CONTRADICTION with the general rules btw). So that you are confronted with an auto fail after 4 hours of playing with 3 other guys.

A game that - on purpose - let's you fail because they change the general trend of turning in clues as a group to make an artificial hurdle is NOT my cup of tea.

I call this bad design.

I saw this same method a few times used in LotR (although there you could see this rules trap much earlier in scenarios...), but I don't think it has a place with such games. Certainly not when you are confronted with it at the complete END of a playing session, which indeed can be 4+ hours with 4 investigators.
 

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I'd also be interested in hearing more.  No specific examples at the moment, but I feel like there are plenty of examples throughout the various scenarios of individual investigators being able to use clues for a specific purpose OR locking out investigators from contributing clues if they're not in a specific location.

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30 minutes ago, KrisWall said:

I'd also be interested in hearing more.  No specific examples at the moment, but I feel like there are plenty of examples throughout the various scenarios of individual investigators being able to use clues for a specific purpose OR locking out investigators from contributing clues if they're not in a specific location.

Yes but as far as I remember, there'll all incredibly specifically marked as such before the Act/Agenda advances. There's no surprise twist that you don't know that only a certain Investigator needs clues until the moment you need them. You always know well in advance and have time to prepare for that.

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Posted (edited)

I am talking about the Scenario A in The Labyrinths of Lunacy. Single group play.

We made it all through the last stage of this quest. And before turning the last Act card, we had to come up with 11 Doom tokens along with the Agenda turning at 7 Doom (so 4 extra Dooms).

So … the only possible way to win was having 4 extra Dooms that could be reached by turning 4 Clue tokens. BUT …. Apparently the card that stated this,  mentioned that it could ONLY be done by ONE investigator who obtained the card to do so.

 

This was NOT mentioned before. So the investigator who came in the possession of the card had only … one clue token and so game over... 

 

Which is a ridiculous way to waste 4 hours of playing. I find this "tric" rather ridiculous and a clear error in game design.

 

Edited by MMOfan

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I know it seems unfair, but it's just a difficult puzzle. You're given ample warning that you will be killed if you fail to find the 4 extra Doom, and you can also freely inspect the set-aside Diagram of Decay (or is it Rot? whichever) that allows you to turn clues into doom. Just make sure that you attach it to your Seeker, or whoever actually has those clues.

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The Diagram (it's a different one depending on mode) gives the ability to the Chamber of Decay, so any investigator there can trigger the action. Also, the action places 1 doom on the location, so you don't need clues if you have actions to spare.

Quote

While you are in the Chamber of Decay, it gains: “[Action]: Place 1 doom here. Flip any number of your clues to their doom side and place them here.”

 

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11 minutes ago, Khudzlin said:

The Diagram (it's a different one depending on mode) gives the ability to the Chamber of Decay, so any investigator there can trigger the action.

Obviously I didn't remember that card that well! Forgot about the Action itself adding a Doom.

But are you sure any player can trigger it? I thought the Diagrams were specifically under control of one player, and thus "you" refers to the controller, not any Investigator at that location. Unless as a Story Asset it's treated like an encounter card so as long as you're with the controlling Investigator in the Chamber, it's triggerable?

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Posted (edited)

The Diagram is controlled by an investigator. But it makes the Chamber of Decay gain the action while the controller is there, per the Diagram's text (which I've included in my previous post). So any investigator in the Chamber of Decay can trigger the ability (provided the Diagram's controller is also there), because the ability is on the location (just like Shortcut level 2).

Edited by Khudzlin

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Khudzlin said:

The Diagram is controlled by an investigator. But it makes the Chamber of Decay gain the action while the controller is there, per the Diagram's text (which I've included in my previous post). So any investigator in the Chamber of Decay can trigger the ability (provided the Diagram's controller is also there), because the ability is on the location (just like Shortcut level 2).

Well according to our rules laywer, ONLY one investigator that gets the card can trigger the ability through an action. Now if that investigator has only one clue left, he can only switch HIS clues to doom tokens. It even says that if that investigator dies, another investigator gets that particular card.

While indeed you can switch a clue to a doom, that investigator needs to have the number of clues in his possession.

In our case that  investigator blocked us all for not being able to fulfill the 11 doom requirements in time.

That’s a TERRIBLE twist for playing a 4 hours game. 

Edited by MMOfan

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17 minutes ago, MMOfan said:

Well according to our rules laywer, ONLY one investigator that gets the card can trigger the ability through an action. Now if that investigator has only one clue left, he can only switch HIS clues to doom tokens. It even says that if that investigator dies, another investigator gets that card.

In our case that  investigator blocked us all for not being able to fulfill the 11 doom requirements in time.

That’s a TERRIBLE twist for playing a 4 hours game. 

Respectfully, your rules lawyer got it wrong.

I think the card you are talking about is this one: http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/arkhamhorror/arkham-horror-the-card-game/_/the-labyrinths-of-lunacy/rot-diagram-r1080

AHC18_43.jpg

Although its true that an investigator cannot activate another's assets, this asset is unique. It actually puts the action on the location, rather than retaining the action on its own card. Because the asset is on the location, any player can activate the action. Which means that any player can use that action.

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2 hours ago, MMOfan said:

While indeed you can switch a clue to a doom, that investigator needs to have the number of clues in his possession.

Even if you had been correct that only the controlling Investigator can trigger that card, you're missing that taking the action alone still adds a Doom for free, regardless of whether you want to flip clues.

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Thanks to Jayelbird for solving our groups mystery. It has been posted on BGG too.

As I stated over there, perhaps they could have added to the card text that it was not a normal asset but a “location asset” and so everyone in the room could use it. In this case the card asset mentioned that when the original investigator was killed, the card passes to another investigator was even more confusing than it should be.

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There's no such thing as a "location asset", you're needlessly confusing yourself. The ability can be used by anyone in the room because it's gained by the location. The forced ability is there to ensure someone keeps the diagram; without it, the diagram would be removed from the game when its controller is defeated.

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Yeah, this has been covered but for clarity's sake: 

Each of the four investigators in your team could stand in the relevant location, each trigger the action 3 times for +12 doom, *and* flip clues to add to that doom. The only cost for triggering it is the action, as indicated by being before the colon. You don't even need clues to do it. Your rules lawyer probably needs to get his/her credentials checked, alas! Definitely not a fault with the scenario, just a fault with interpretation. 

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Besides, you shouldn't feel bad my group, while playing epic multiplayer, suffered the same fate but due to a different issue...I was playing Carolyn and drew her weakness with one doom away from the agenda advancing..we spent 20 minutes trying to solve the puzzle, we even figured out a way to get me an action, but it needed a skill test and as of right now, no card exists that performs a fast action skill test, so we all lost, in our group at least, due to a single bad card draw.  However it has already been mentioned in the game store as quite possibly the most memorable ending of any game of Arkham.  It's important to note, most people, tend to remember failure far better than victory, I have made it a mission to turn that into an important enjoyment and have found more fun in most games I play because of it.

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10 hours ago, MMOfan said:

As I stated over there, perhaps they could have added to the card text that it was not a normal asset but a “location asset” and so everyone in the room could use it.

Yeah, they really should have said something like "While you are in the Chamber of Rot, it gains..." in the card text.

:D

In all seriousness, though, it's not the first card that adds an ability to a location.  You misread how it works, and that's all.

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8 hours ago, Starbreaker1 said:

Besides, you shouldn't feel bad my group, while playing epic multiplayer, suffered the same fate but due to a different issue...I was playing Carolyn and drew her weakness with one doom away from the agenda advancing..we spent 20 minutes trying to solve the puzzle, we even figured out a way to get me an action, but it needed a skill test and as of right now, no card exists that performs a fast action skill test, so we all lost, in our group at least, due to a single bad card draw.  However it has already been mentioned in the game store as quite possibly the most memorable ending of any game of Arkham.  It's important to note, most people, tend to remember failure far better than victory, I have made it a mission to turn that into an important enjoyment and have found more fun in most games I play because of it.

Expose weakness?

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Expose weakness, requires an enemy, but that is a fast card that grants a skill check so there is that...question then becomes is it worth it to spend the 1 xp on a pretty bad card just to cover my weakness...probably not, but at least a solution does exist and maybe in the future.

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Its not a terrible card. Its best run along side a guardian wielding a shotgun.  It doesn't come up a lot but you can also combo it along side fine clothes because its a test you can take in the middle of your parley test so it receives fine clothes' benefit. With a seeker's incredible ability to pump up tests using higher education it allows you to prop up a guardian in a way they often can't afford to do themselves. Its one of the very few cards in the game that can affect elites.

Worse comes to worse, its got two fist icons you can pitch into a test which situationally might be better than actually using the card's ability

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In addition, if you reduce the targets fight to 0, only an autofail would fail the test. Even wendy can defeat rats this way or with anatomical diagrams.

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