Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Doppelganger

Slicer tools

Recommended Posts

Card text:

"After you execute a maneuver, you may exhaust this card to choose an enemy ship at distance 1-3. You may choose a new command on its top command dial."

Question:
Who gets to physically set the new command chosen by the slicer tools owner? The ship owner, so that he does not have to show the old command, or the slicer tools owner, so that he does get to see the old command?


 

Edited by Doppelganger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AFAIK this one never received an official answer, but it pops up from time to time (see here).  I think the consensus was that you do get to see what the previous command was, because:

1) "You" on an upgrade card refers to the ship to which it is equipped--the player, of course, acting as the proxy*.

2) As Dras pointed out in the above-linked thread:

On 5/31/2016 at 4:56 PM, Drasnighta said:

To choose a command, rotate the command dial so that the desired command icon is framed by the dial’s fastener.

So by the strictest letter of the rules, you're right that the correct way to Slicer Tools is for the slicee to hand his top dial to the slicer; the slicer looks at it and rotates it to wherever he wants it, finding out what the original command was; and the slicer hands it back to the slicee.

In practice, this almost never matters, to the extent that it is common practice everywhere I've played Slicers--including Worlds last year--to just tell your opponent what to change it to.  If you think the information might be relevant, you can just ask them to show you. 

This not only prevents having to reach across the board to hand across the dial, but some people have a weird thing with other people touching their stuff, and it prevents your opponent from having to let you touch his super-expensive command dials with your Dorito-boogery fingers.

 

* there's a whole other can of worms here I'm not even going to get into, but for the purposes of this upgrade, this is functionally accurate

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

* there's a whole other can of worms here I'm not even going to get into, but for the purposes of this upgrade, this is functionally accurate

 haha, I promise I ain't going to say a thing either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually disagree .    If you are going to quote the learn to play reference then you need to finish the sentence.    After that part comes "Then place that command dial facedown next to the ship’s ship card, placing it under any other command dials already assigned to that ship."  Does that then imply that when you slice you you actually also cycle the command stack.  To be pedantic and RAW you do.  However as we all know the learn to play guide is crap and is superseded by the RRG. 

So in the RRG.  Under command phase they use the word "assign" a new command, not choose.    They also later say to place the dial under any other dials already assigned to that ship"  So if you want to use "choose" as defined by the learn to play then you have to use the whole meaning.  Whereas the RRG uses Assign to describe the process of selecting a command superseding the the Learn to play guide.  Therefore the keyword choose means nothing beyond selecting a new command for the top dial. 

To be even more RAW, if you want to argue it further the first part of slicer tools say choose a ship....you also don't pick up my ship do you?  That is the problem with RAW and common sense.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Mogrok said:

So in the RRG.  Under command phase they use the word "assign" a new command, not choose.    They also later say to place the dial under any other dials already assigned to that ship"  So if you want to use "choose" as defined by the learn to play then you have to use the whole meaning.  Whereas the RRG uses Assign to describe the process of selecting a command superseding the the Learn to play guide.  Therefore the keyword choose means nothing beyond selecting a new command for the top dial. 

 

The RRG says "choose commands and assign command dials"--two different functions. It then goes on to define "assign command dials", but not to redefine "choose a command".

RRG PG 3 COMMAND PHASE

Quote

During this phase, players secretly and simultaneously  
choose commands on their command dials and assign  
them facedown to their ships.
•     A ship must be assigned command dials until it has a  
number of command dials equal to its command value.  
This may require that more than one dial be assigned to  
a ship, such as during the first round of the game.
•     When assigning a command dial to a ship, the dial is  
placed under any other command dials already assigned  
to that ship.

Placing the dial facedown at the bottom of the stack is instructed for "assign," not "choose".

32 minutes ago, Mogrok said:

However as we all know the learn to play guide is crap and is superseded by the RRG. 

But in the absence of contradiction in the RRG, the LTP is authoritative. And since RRG Command Phase doesn't define "choose a command" and LTP does--and dedicates a whole sidebar to it--I think it's reasonable to use the LTP text.

You're right that it's not absolutely explicit on the card that you don't put the face down dial back on top. But that's where your comment on common sense applies.

But here's the thing: you're making an argument why I'm wrong, and that's fine... But there's no evidence that you're right. I mean, absolute worst case, if the LTP quote isn't applicable, it's a toss-up because choosing a dial is completely undefined.

It comes down to this:

There is weak evidence that you see your opponent's dial, and there is no evidence that you don't. In the absence of any other guidance, I'll come down on the side of weak evidence every time there.

Edited by Ardaedhel
Ugh, quotes are still all ****** up and unfixable on mobile. -_-

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:
56 minutes ago, Mogrok said:

So in the RRG.  Under command phase they use the word "assign" a new command, not choose.    They also later say to place the dial under any other dials already assigned to that ship"  So if you want to use "choose" as defined by the learn to play then you have to use the whole meaning.  Whereas the RRG uses Assign to describe the process of selecting a command superseding the the Learn to play guide.  Therefore the keyword choose means nothing beyond selecting a new command for the top dial.  

 

The RRG says "choose commands and assign command dials"--two different functions. It then goes on to define "assign command dials", but not to redefine "choose a command".

Quote

RRG PG 3 COMMAND PHASE

During this phase, players secretly and simultaneously  
choose commands on their command dials and assign  
them facedown to their ships.
•     A ship must be assigned command dials until it has a  
number of command dials equal to its command value.  
This may require that more than one dial be assigned to  
a ship, such as during the first round of the game.
•     When assigning a command dial to a ship, the dial is  
placed under any other command dials already assigned  
to that ship.

Placing the dial facedown at the bottom of the stack is instructed for "assign," not "choose".

56 minutes ago, Mogrok said:

However as we all know the learn to play guide is crap and is superseded by the RRG. 



But in the absence of contradiction in the RRG, the LTP is authoritative. And since RRG Command Phase doesn't define "choose a command" and LTP does--and dedicates a whole sidebar to it--I think it's reasonable to use the LTP text.

You're right that it's not absolutely explicit on the card that you don't put the face down dial back on top. But that's where your comment on common sense applies.

But here's the thing: you're making an argument why I'm wrong, and that's fine... But there's no evidence that you're right. I mean, absolute worst case, if the LTP quote isn't applicable, it's a toss-up because choosing a dial is completely undefined.

It comes down to this:

There is weak evidence that you see your opponent's dial, and there is no evidence that you don't. In the absence of any other guidance, I'll come down on the side of weak evidence every time there.

 

 

FTFY

 

Edited by Ginkapo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since the rrg defines the assign part.  Then that leaves the word choose.  For actually selecting the command.  

However the LTP refers to your own disks not your opponents.  In the preceding paragraph it specifically says their own ships.   

And to go further it mentions placing it under command dials already “assigned” to that ship. So it takes into account the word assign.   Therefore if we were to use the argument the ltp is the correct interpretation.  Then you have to use all of it. Not just pick and choose. 

Under hidden information in the faq  it specifically says face down command dials are hidden information   It does say that a game effect can allow the player to learn that information however slicer tools unlike Isard does not say look at  or reveal the dial.  It just says choose.  So if the argument is around that word, then the entire meaning of that word according to ltp and it’s interaction with command dials should be used.  

I am not advocating that slicer tools does this.  I am just pointing out that the rules are crappily written in the ltp  and if you want to use them as an argument then you have to use all of the wording.

And yes on the phone is hard.  I don’t even bother quoting things through mobile. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/8/2018 at 6:32 PM, Mogrok said:

Since the rrg defines the assign part.  Then that leaves the word choose.  For actually selecting the command.  

However the LTP refers to your own disks not your opponents.  In the preceding paragraph it specifically says their own ships.   

And to go further it mentions placing it under command dials already “assigned” to that ship. So it takes into account the word assign.   Therefore if we were to use the argument the ltp is the correct interpretation.  Then you have to use all of it. Not just pick and choose. 

Under hidden information in the faq  it specifically says face down command dials are hidden information   It does say that a game effect can allow the player to learn that information however slicer tools unlike Isard does not say look at  or reveal the dial.  It just says choose.  So if the argument is around that word, then the entire meaning of that word according to ltp and it’s interaction with command dials should be used.  

I am not advocating that slicer tools does this.  I am just pointing out that the rules are crappily written in the ltp  and if you want to use them as an argument then you have to use all of the wording.

And yes on the phone is hard.  I don’t even bother quoting things through mobile. 

But why would you use the context of a word that is defined in a sentence, when the rest of slicer tools pretty much redefines where and how it applies?

So Why would I care about this: "After that part comes "Then place that command dial facedown next to the ship’s ship card, placing it under any other command dials already assigned to that ship."

You may choose a new command on its top command dial."

Seems clear enough to me. However, I asked support for a clarification, maybe I get one :D

Edited by Doppelganger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Got an Answer:

 

Hello Doppelganger,
 
In response to your question:
 
Hi, I need an official clarification on the upgrade card "slicer tools" the card text reads: "After you execute a maneuver, you may exhaust this card to choose an enemy ship at distance 1-3. You may choose a new command on its top command dial." Question: Who gets to physically set the new command chosen by the slicer tools owner? The ship owner, so that he does not have to show the old command to the slicer tools user, or the slicer tools owner, so that he does get to see the old command? I have seen conflicting interpretations: On the one hand the LTP document on page 7 states: "To choose a command, rotate the command dial so that the desired command icon is framed by the dial’s fastener." Although there is the caveat that this refers to setting your own commands. So is this to be treated as rules for slicer tools or not? On the other hand I have seen multiple people online claim: "You don't get to see what your opponent had selected for the dial you're going to change, you merely tell him what command the dial is now going to be." Since the card text does not state a handover of dials or a reveal. I would welcome a clarification. With regards, Doppel
 
The player controlling the ship equipped with Slicer Tools can physically pick up the dial and choose the command. Many players do want another player to physically handle their components. In this case, the owner of the affected ship can display the top dial and set it to the chosen command. In either case, the player controlling the ship with Slicer Tools is allowed to see and confirm that the dial that is being changed, including what that dial was previously set to.
 
Thanks for your question!
 
Michael Gernes
Game Producer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...