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Orkimedes

Weapon and unit efficiency analysis - Never Tell Me The Odds

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A quick look at some early data from the in-progress TTS Invader League, including a look at faction win/loss records and setup cards. There is also the obligatory discussion about Key Positions, and some ideas for 'fixing' it.
 
What do you think of key positions? If you could change it or the "turn 0" setup process, how would you do it?
 

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15 minutes ago, Orkimedes said:
A quick look at some early data from the in-progress TTS Invader League, including a look at faction win/loss records and setup cards. There is also the obligatory discussion about Key Positions, and some ideas for 'fixing' it.
 
What do you think of key positions? If you could change it or the "turn 0" setup process, how would you do it?
 

 

 

That's about what I figured. Wookies are way better than IRG (because their shooting is very good with surges and pierce, plus the IRG got taxed for having guardian when you really don't want to be using it too much since IRG are expensive) and empire has virtually nothing to fill points out in Veers + Boba lists until snipers are a thing. I would've guessed Rebels were winning way more, which appears to be the case.

Vader is too slow, vulnerable, and expensive to see competitive play. Palpatine is a slightly less bad Vader due to Pulling the strings doing interesting things (especially once Snipers are released), but he's still too expensive. I could go on for a while about why Rebels have free reign over imperials for another week, but if anyone wants to hear it, come to the discord and ask me. I'd rather not post a giant essay here.

Edit: As for your Key Positions question. I'd say you can spend both of your choices to remove any card or play with all 4 cards are the two best and easiest ways to fix it.

Edited by Hoffburger

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I haven't tried proving so I am open to hearing from people who have.  I didn't think Wookies or Rebel turret seemed worth it.  The 100% inability to move with the dish just concerns me so much as I hate the risk of being unable to move.

 

I also fear that with a terrain heavy board they would have issues with the range 4.  Or that they won't have cover unless have a deployment where you can exactly touch cover so doesn't block you also. 

 

The best thing seems range 4, but when unable move after deploy I am always worried it won't happen much and standby only extends to three.  I fear using it would just be the Rebel AT-ST where you ignore it, except AT-ST can move and has height making that harder.

 

Not to mention any enemy snipers can just free hit you consistantly.  No armor, white defense die, can't move for better defensive positioning...

 

The only real benefit seems to be the 5 black die at range 4.  Which while solid isn't much deadlier than say commandos.  Who can at least move around for better shots and chase targets.

 

Or am I totally missing something?  Is terrain just light often?

 

Wookies I can sorta get.  I assume that they are specifically used because of the bowcaster unit?  Cause without the heavy I am hesitant.  With heavy I can kinda get it.  3black, 4white, 1 red, pierce and surge

110 points though.  12 health seems nice, but with such weak defense die you will probably only block two wounds.  Though cover can help.  Of course I could just be biased cause I love my commandos >.>

Anyways, just wanted to hear from experienced people why people loved dish and wookies. 

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22 hours ago, Hoffburger said:

 

 

That's about what I figured. Wookies are way better than IRG (because their shooting is very good with surges and pierce, plus the IRG got taxed for having guardian when you really don't want to be using it too much since IRG are expensive) and empire has virtually nothing to fill points out in Veers + Boba lists until snipers are a thing. I would've guessed Rebels were winning way more, which appears to be the case.

Vader is too slow, vulnerable, and expensive to see competitive play. Palpatine is a slightly less bad Vader due to Pulling the strings doing interesting things (especially once Snipers are released), but he's still too expensive. I could go on for a while about why Rebels have free reign over imperials for another week, but if anyone wants to hear it, come to the discord and ask me. I'd rather not post a giant essay here.

Edit: As for your Key Positions question. I'd say you can spend both of your choices to remove any card or play with all 4 cards are the two best and easiest ways to fix it.

Yeah, hopefully we see things even out a bit once the current 'wave' or releases gets going.  We've been told by the devs that the game was 'balanced' and playtested with units we still haven't seen yet, and it won't be in that plat tested game state until the first stage of releases is over with.

20 hours ago, MajorSmexy said:

I haven't tried proving so I am open to hearing from people who have.  I didn't think Wookies or Rebel turret seemed worth it.  The 100% inability to move with the dish just concerns me so much as I hate the risk of being unable to move.

 

I also fear that with a terrain heavy board they would have issues with the range 4.  Or that they won't have cover unless have a deployment where you can exactly touch cover so doesn't block you also. 

 

The best thing seems range 4, but when unable move after deploy I am always worried it won't happen much and standby only extends to three.  I fear using it would just be the Rebel AT-ST where you ignore it, except AT-ST can move and has height making that harder.

 

Not to mention any enemy snipers can just free hit you consistantly.  No armor, white defense die, can't move for better defensive positioning...

 

The only real benefit seems to be the 5 black die at range 4.  Which while solid isn't much deadlier than say commandos.  Who can at least move around for better shots and chase targets.

 

Or am I totally missing something?  Is terrain just light often?

 

Wookies I can sorta get.  I assume that they are specifically used because of the bowcaster unit?  Cause without the heavy I am hesitant.  With heavy I can kinda get it.  3black, 4white, 1 red, pierce and surge

110 points though.  12 health seems nice, but with such weak defense die you will probably only block two wounds.  Though cover can help.  Of course I could just be biased cause I love my commandos >.>

Anyways, just wanted to hear from experienced people why people loved dish and wookies. 

I've been pleasantly surprised by both the Wookies and the FD.  Range 4 goes a long way... and is not something Rebels previously had access to for cheap.  The AT-RT laser is technically Range 4, but rather specialized and somewhat pricey.  The FD offers range 4 area denial with a dice pool that trooper units are actually scared of.  Since they are tough to suppress and nearly always have two actions, they are usually aiming; 5 black/surge with an aim token is pretty solid, and it is not unusual to get 4 or even 5 hits.

Wookies are interesting.  It is really tempting to just charge them in there, but their ranged is actually quite good, especially against Empire with the pierce.  Their save is bad, to be sure, but 12 wounds go a long way, and they are basically immune to suppression with Indomitable.

Edited by Orkimedes

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14 hours ago, Orkimedes said:
Introducing or first guest writer, Mike Barry, to talk about the Dark Lord of the Sith himself, Darth Vader. This is the first of the commander deep dives.
 

Yay!

But... I'm not sure about this following bit:

Quote

Fearless – Vader has no courage value, which does some very interesting things. First, it means Vader will never get a suppression token (and the benefits that come with it – it also means he’ll never lose an action to suppression). [...]Overall, the benefits of this outweigh the negatives of it, but you need to be mindful that in the open Vader will never get suppression cover bonuses.

According to the rules on suppression, trooper units get the cover benefit as soon as they have at least one token... it seems it's basically a keeping their heads down mechanic  - not available on the first shot cause fog of war/situational awareness. Depending on the 'courage' of the unit that keeping head down instinct may hamper their action ability or not depending on the amount of incoming fire...

Am I missing something?

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52 minutes ago, CaptainRocket said:

Yay!

But... I'm not sure about this following bit:

According to the rules on suppression, trooper units get the cover benefit as soon as they have at least one token... it seems it's basically a keeping their heads down mechanic  - not available on the first shot cause fog of war/situational awareness. Depending on the 'courage' of the unit that keeping head down instinct may hamper their action ability or not depending on the amount of incoming fire...

Am I missing something?

Units with a ‘-‘ for their suppression value cannot receive or accumulate suppression tokens.  Is that what you are asking?

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20 minutes ago, Orkimedes said:

Units with a ‘-‘ for their suppression value cannot receive or accumulate suppression tokens.  Is that what you are asking?

Oh my gosh! Thank you - yes, we've been playing this wrong!  I missed it earlier today 'cause it's not listed under the Suppression rules at all, but only in the courage rules!

 

Interesting...

 

The Suppression rules are explicit that tokens *are* given during ranged attacks, and contradict the Courage rules section, which I think means that the Courage rules override them.

That means this rule interaction is perhaps a precedent for the Area Weapon versus Attack rule contradictions regarding units in Melee.

This could be seen as supporting the interpretation that Area Weapons *can* damage units in Melee given that they are the more specific exception and only specify "each unit", and the only specific restrictions are against adding other weapons to the attack pool?

I.e. it is not an error that Yellow Weapon ranges were not called out in the Attack section of rules, nor is it an error that the Melee restriction was not called out in the Area weapon rules, but rather the format is that more specific rules strictly override sections which are more generic.

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Do you like to throw dice at things without having to measure?  Do you like to make your opponent pick up minis without rolling defense dice?  Do you like big, long, cylindrical objects?  If you answered yes to all these questions, the DH-447 may be for you!
 
The next unit deep dive is up. Commando snipers (both versions). Check it out here:
 

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