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Commander Kaine

Modifications are kinda bad... pls don't hurt me

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Look. I'm not doing this on purpose. My inner need to complain is just too great. I'd burst if I didn't. I know some of you would like that, but this is not the day for you to be happy. 

 

Anyway. Modifications are kinda bad. Like actually having trouble to pick something for certain ships bad. Since several ships will have the option to take multiple modifications (while some are denied the option all together) this is an issue that will come up often I think. Also, of course, I'm making this thread because the Imperials often have multiple mod slots, or at least the ones we have been told about. 

Lest I be accused (rightly so) of imperial bias, the Khiraxz also hates this. 

 

Anyway 2. Here is the list of mods: 

Shield Upgrade: Depends on pricing. It could be useful, but it is really, the most boring upgrade imaginable.  It adds 0 extra fun to the game. No new mechanic at all. 

Hull Upgrade: same

Stealth Device: Likely very expensive, and it has a limited usefulness based on your native agility. 

Engine Upgrade: Very few ships can take it at all, and for those it feels more like a tax. Only the HWK and the different versions of the Falcon. 

Afterburners: Also likely a pricey upgrade, but one of the good ones. 

Tactical Scrambler: Extremely situational, and it doesn't help the ship at all. This is for the squad... 

Static Discharge Vanes: This is fine, but feels unimpressive. 

Munitions Failsafe: Good for saving your munitions, but very situational. Most ships wouldn't take this. 

Electronic Baffle: It's a useful tool, but by the self damaging nature of it, not many ships will use it. 

Advanced Slam: Two ships only again. This is quite unlikely to change, since that part of the lore is kinda dead. 

Ablative Plating: Its an okay upgrade for the bigger bombers, but it is still decidedly meh. 

 

And that's all. 

 

Compare them in effectiveness of the Gunner upgrades, or Crew upgrades, or Talents... I get that since they are more common, they can't be that good, but the design with these feels very conservative. 

I think most mod slots will be occupied by afterburners and stealth device, if the ship in question can take it, and you have points to spare. If you don't, you might slap on something just for the possibility of maybe using it, but my theory crafting attempts so far usually resorted to: 

"I guess I take shield upgrade then".... Which, as stated, is the most boring upgrade in the game. 

 

ALSO, where are my imperial mod slots??? 

Where is TIE mk II? Why only the scum and rebels get access to dial upgrades? The whole argument of "empire has superior mobility" falls apart when you slap a roughly 4 (2) points upgrade on the X-Wing, and then it has a better dial than any other ship in the game. 

The loss of LWF hurts. The striker I'm sure will suffer, unless they become drastically cheaper, allowing more on the table. The Aggressor is a decidedly worse Y-Wing now, as it no longer has the green dice defense it once did. 

 

So, I don't know. I might be just a miserable creature that is incapable of happiness (findings support this theory so far), but I don't really see the diversity and usefulness of other 2nd edition upgrades in mods. Which really hurts the ships that rely on their mods to be special, or to make up for the lack of other slots. (Ehm.. ehm) 

 

Am I wrong? I know you will say yes, but convince me the sky is not falling, and mods are actually worthwhile upgrades that help ships, and the "imperials get extra mod slots" isn't actually an empty promise that helps no one. 

 

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It’s a little slim to begin with, but I do think that’s a good thing. We start with something limited to get use to it, and we’ll see how it goes from there. 

I rather disagree with your assessment of Hull/Shield upgrade. Well...I can submit that they can be boring, but added health can give added security and fun. An example is my FO Aces list, which had a standard OL with a hull upgrade. That extra health gave me more confidence to do something more daring with OL because I could afford to to take more damage, leading to some fun plays. Likewise, I saw Jax benefit greatly from having a hull upgrade, specially the look on opponent’s faces when that third damage they worked so hard to push through didn’t actually kill him. Then you can also kind of game the system with an extra hull when playing Tel and his revive shenanigans. Boring unto itself? Maybe. Useful and can aid make the ship its attached to more fun? I think so.

The Engine Upgrade is pretty limited, but as a HWK Pilot, I plan to play the heck out of it, depending on price. 

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2 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

“The striker I’m sure will suffer”

 

facepalmPicard.jpg

I made a post about the Strikers being awesome... since they are dodgy. But there is a limit to that, and they are not all high PS. Generic strikers are not great against turrets still. missing LWF is a great nerf to the striker. 

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most 1.0 modifications were actually fixes for failed designs (Tie mk II, Autothrusters, guidance chips) or were used to add a mechanic to a card (Servomotors S foils, Adv. Cloaking device, Adv. targetting computer, Gyroscopic).

The first should no longer be necesary in a new edition and the second have been incorporated into the pilot cards.

Looking at the list of mod, the intersting ones that I'm missing are;

Countermeasures, Exp. interface, Ion Proyector, Pulse Ray shield.

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15 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

It’s a little slim to begin with, but I do think that’s a good thing. We start with something limited to get use to it, and we’ll see how it goes from there. 

 

I feel this.

Also 2nd on shield upgrade. Mostly boring but Epsilon Ace (please return) is all sorts of fun and the added shield makes longer fun. Sometimes.

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Just now, DerRitter said:

most 1.0 modifications were actually fixes for failed designs (Tie mk II, Autothrusters, guidance chips) or were used to add a mechanic to a card (Servomotors S foils, Adv. Cloaking device, Adv. targetting computer, Gyroscopic).

The first should no longer be necesary in a new edition and the second have been incorporated into the pilot cards.

Looking at the list of mod, the intersting ones that I'm missing are;

Countermeasures, Exp. interface, Ion Proyector, Pulse Ray shield.

I purposefully did not bring up 1.0, since the past is not relevant. 

I agree, these fixes no longer need to exist. 

 

HOWEVER, that does not mean that modification slots shouldn't be allotted powerful and fun mechanics like the other slots in 2.0 we have seen so far. 

Where are the mods that help ships be more offensive? Targeting computer, guidance chips?

I'm not saying we should return to the broken mechanics of 1.0, but there should be a larger variety of mos. 

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Since modifications are one of the most universal upgrade types, "interesting/powerful" abilities can really limit design space for future ships/pilots/upgrades or push powercreep. I'd rather we get cautious upgrades in general, but the mod slot seems like the one to be the most careful about making abilities that are so powerful as to become auto-include (think Guidance Chips, Autothrusters etc from 1.0)

.

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4 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

Hey, Imperial players, we are giving you guys two mod slots on your TIEs to make up for all the exclusive upgrades you guys can’t use. Now you can have two unused upgrades on your TIE Fighters instead of one!  You’re welcome. 

—FFG

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I presume they're just being cautious. Plus, some of the ships' chassis abilities add a lot of flavor, capability, and potential complexity to some of those ships. I'd prefer they keep some things simple, especially with mods, ironing them out until they feel like most OP combos have been accounted for, which could take some time. 

Please be patient. We haven't actually gotten to play the game yet and they will still release waves after this. There needs to be some space to expand and they already have 14 waves of ships, so it almost has to be upgrades that will be the special parts of upcoming waves.

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16 minutes ago, Praetorate of the Empire said:

Please be patient. We haven't actually gotten to play the game yet and they will still release waves after this. There needs to be some space to expand and they already have 14 waves of ships, so it almost has to be upgrades that will be the special parts of upcoming waves.

I understand this. 

But I've been talking about imperial upgrade slots and their problems for a very very long time now. It pisses me off that FFG is reluctant to answer it in a satisfactory manner. 

I'm afraid that the "imps get more ship abilities" is a red herring, that is balanced by titles and configurations for other factions. I made a post about that too. Customization is king, and NECESSARY for long term balance. The more upgrade slots you have, the more options you have. This needs to be addressed, and imperials have a severe lack of upgrade diversity in 2.0. 

 

We got SOME crew, but 2.0 has 2 crew slots, and of course, rebels and scum are MILES ahead of imps in both. 

So when our Imp only mods are all gone without a trace (with 3 ships actively relying on LWF still in the roster) and our special ability of equipping multiple mod slots is rather uninteresting, my patience degrades quickly. 

 

Oh. Did you notice that the most powerful upgrade cards seem to be Gunners and Crew? Which we have the least available ones in all likelihood. 

 

 

EDIT: Also we have seen no indication of being able to field significantly more imperial ships than we were before. So don't come with the "but they are cheaper" answer. IF they are cheaper enough to field more of them, I'll shut up, as I have stated repeatedly. I gladly eat my words. There is just no good reason to assume that will happen. 

Edited by Commander Kaine

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1 minute ago, Commander Kaine said:

1. I understand this. 

2. But I've been talking about imperial upgrade slots and their problems for a very very long time now. It pisses me off that FFG is reluctant to answer it in a satisfactory manner. 

3. I'm afraid that the "imps get more ship abilities" is a red herring, that is balanced by titles and configurations for other factions. I made a post about that too. Customization is king, and NECESSARY for long term balance. 

---

4. Oh. Did you notice that the most powerful upgrade cards seem to be Gunners and Crew? Which we have the least available ones in all likelihood. 

1. Good.

2. Apparently the Imperial faction has been fairly consistently the baseline for design because many of the ships and pilots were barely changed or left alone entirely. I hear the lament of having zero to no Unique Upgrades for the Empire. I really want something that other ships can't have that matters. I must just have a bit more patience or perseverance... ?

I look forward to seeing how TIE Phantoms look cost-wise and in their playability in 2.0. The Cloak action remains (mostly) unique to the Empire, so at least we have that going for us.

3. More on-board ship abilities that have no cost is, I think, an important distinction from Titles and Configs. I hope this is evident when the app drops and we see costings. I would LOVE to have the versatility of 1.0 in 2.0 right out of the gate, but I have confidence that they'll get there. They have time and future waves to start integrating more options as 2.0 develops. 

I would argue, however, that BALANCE is also necessary for game longevity; customization needs to go hand-in-hand with a balanced gameplay, so they need to make well thought-out decisions on what Upgrades they add. Again, I'm patiently waiting and speculating at what those will be.

I'll also argue that the devs are doing a good job of maintaining a design paradigm for the Imperials; most ships are designed with a specific role in mind and to do it well. In that spirit of design, there's not much room for individual upgrades that won't turn into auto-includes. Instead, they somehow bake it into a whole chassis. 

4. What did you expect? Crew has always been extremely powerful and the most flavor-packed Upgrade for the game and there's just not many carriers for either of them in the Imperial ranks. We mostly have faceless, uniformed soldiers. Yeah, we have the potential for generic officers and some really cool opportunities for some big bads (like Thrawn, Yularen, Piett, Veers), but where would they go? I've also heard many people say they don't want more shuttles, and if we get the TIE Shuttle, we'll have one of each size. Any more just overlap in design space.

I do fly Bombers and Strikers fairly regularly, so I am disappointed that we don't have something like that, but my excitement for Bombers with 2-hard turns greatly overshadows that aversion.

If you want Unique Gunners and Crew, go play as Rebels or Scum. Or just realize that, unless Separatists and Republic are created, that you're flying cheap, mass produced ships for an Empire that doesn't really give a crap if you survive, they just need butts in the seats to shut down the Rebellion. ?

 

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2 hours ago, Praetorate of the Empire said:

1. Good.

2. Apparently the Imperial faction has been fairly consistently the baseline for design because many of the ships and pilots were barely changed or left alone entirely. I hear the lament of having zero to no Unique Upgrades for the Empire. I really want something that other ships can't have that matters. I must just have a bit more patience or perseverance... ?

I look forward to seeing how TIE Phantoms look cost-wise and in their playability in 2.0. The Cloak action remains (mostly) unique to the Empire, so at least we have that going for us.

3. More on-board ship abilities that have no cost is, I think, an important distinction from Titles and Configs. I hope this is evident when the app drops and we see costings. I would LOVE to have the versatility of 1.0 in 2.0 right out of the gate, but I have confidence that they'll get there. They have time and future waves to start integrating more options as 2.0 develops. 

I would argue, however, that BALANCE is also necessary for game longevity; customization needs to go hand-in-hand with a balanced gameplay, so they need to make well thought-out decisions on what Upgrades they add. Again, I'm patiently waiting and speculating at what those will be.

I'll also argue that the devs are doing a good job of maintaining a design paradigm for the Imperials; most ships are designed with a specific role in mind and to do it well. In that spirit of design, there's not much room for individual upgrades that won't turn into auto-includes. Instead, they somehow bake it into a whole chassis. 

4. What did you expect? Crew has always been extremely powerful and the most flavor-packed Upgrade for the game and there's just not many carriers for either of them in the Imperial ranks. We mostly have faceless, uniformed soldiers. Yeah, we have the potential for generic officers and some really cool opportunities for some big bads (like Thrawn, Yularen, Piett, Veers), but where would they go? I've also heard many people say they don't want more shuttles, and if we get the TIE Shuttle, we'll have one of each size. Any more just overlap in design space.

I do fly Bombers and Strikers fairly regularly, so I am disappointed that we don't have something like that, but my excitement for Bombers with 2-hard turns greatly overshadows that aversion.

If you want Unique Gunners and Crew, go play as Rebels or Scum. Or just realize that, unless Separatists and Republic are created, that you're flying cheap, mass produced ships for an Empire that doesn't really give a crap if you survive, they just need butts in the seats to shut down the Rebellion. ?

 

What I am getting at, is that flavour shouldn't influence mechanical diversity. 

 

I should have the same number of options as a rebel player, because more options means a competitive advantage. 

 

Part of this game is list building. During list building, your job is solve the various problems a meta throws at you. If you have less options, that very likely means you have less solutions. 

For example: A specific mechanic (like stress or ion, or bombs) related build gains a lot of traction in the meta. You want to account for this in your build. The more upgrade slots you have available, the higher the likelihood of there being an upgrade that helps you to answer that problem. 

If you lack upgrade slots, chances are that the specific upgrade you want, is unavailable to you. 

Now, this symptom (being weak to a specific mechanic) is not a big problem, in fact, it builds faction identity. The underlying disease is the problem. Why don't you have access to the same options? 

 

Or, to spin it another way: The more upgrade slots you have, with more upgrades available to you, the higher the chances of you being able to counter anything. 

Any rebel/scum ship with the gunner slot, will likely be able to change their build to fit the current meta, or at least, they will have higher likelihood of successfully doing that, because they just have so many dang options. 

Han has much more build options than RAC. Like disgustingly more. Of course Han will have tons more builds... and you know what that means statistically? More high tier builds. 

 

So I don't care if I get a card for any nameless schmuck or random stormtrooper. I don't care if you have to make up a very forced upgrade slot that makes up for the missing diversity (Thankfully, this is now an option). I don't care how you do it, but do it. 

 

Imagine a CCG or TCG... If one of the factions/colors would have only 75% cards available to them, how do you think they would fare competitively? 

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Is it strange that I kinda like the thought of modifications being boring and weak?

There are a lot of mods which wound up being necessary to keep balance in the game, to make weak ships viable.  Lightweight Frame is a big one.  The extra "half an agility" or whatever was great, but it was also needed because dice mods were high enough.  I'd rather the game be balanced around not using them, and that probably means making some things more or less expensive.  Maybe strikers lost a few points.  Maybe the kinds of things which can easily cut through them cost more.

Likewise Guidance Chips.  Those were necessary, because Torpedos and Missiles were, until that point, too weak.  So they had a mod slot to make them better.  A better design might have reduced points costs, and hopefully that's what they'll do in 2e.  Mod slots fixed a lot of problems that hopefully won't have to occur in a variable-points game.

//

As to Imperial ships being kind of out-of-options with upgrades, that is a little lame, but it's also not that different from 1e, and kinda fits the lore.  1e TIE Fighters pretty much never had upgrades.  Imperial crew are also in an odd spot, in that most of them would stay on capital ships.  Star Wars Galaxies had to invent the VT-49, since nothing like it already existed.  There's just a lot of gaps in Imperial ship design in a lore sense.

//

I want Imperials to be balanced in game terms, but the Imperial flavor really is a lot different.  To cross into other IP for a moment, Zerg and Protoss are really different in flavor and design philosophy, but there's some degree of balance.  Long-run in X-Wing, we'll see if the differences in ship necessitated by that flavor difference leads to balance issues.  Most Rebel ships get to pick some sort of a cheap perk (a Droid, a System slot, etc), while most Imperials don't get that.  Part of this was balanced in 1e by the fact that EVERY Imperial small ship had some sort of movement-action, while many ships in other factions didn't have these.  With 2e, pretty much every ship has some sort of barrel roll, so that bit of Imperial Flavor is gone.

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6 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

What I am getting at, is that flavour shouldn't influence mechanical diversity. 

I should have the same number of options as a rebel player, because more options means a competitive advantage. 

Part of this game is list building. During list building, your job is solve the various problems a meta throws at you. If you have less options, that very likely means you have less solutions.

This makes a lot of sense.

I'll double-down on a thought that in 1e, Imperial Ships tended to have better actions than Rebel/Scum ships.  That's also an advantage, and provides more on-table options, despite there being fewer list-building options.

The worry, then, is that with Rebel ships getting their action bars vastly improved in 2e, Imperials have lost that comparative advantage.  Factions should feel different, but they still have to be balanced.

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27 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Is it strange that I kinda like the thought of modifications being boring and weak?

It would be fine, if Imps had their own slot. They don't, instead part of their faction identity is to get more of these mods. That makes it bad. 

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The only mod I can think of that I really miss is targeting computer, seemed like a thematic one as you could slap one on an interceptor and although it was good at offense with PTL it actually doesn't add too much when you can't focus/lock every round with interceptors, it just added a bit more flexibility to your actions, seems like it would be be a good offensive mod that isn't overpowered unlike something like guidance chips that was introduced to fix ordnance and would likely be busted as a 0 point mod in 2.0. I'm hoping they add it back in at some point but not holding my breath since it's not in the conversions. Could be missing something power-level wise but otherwise it seems a little unnecessary to cut it.

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6 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

Static Discharge Vanes: This is fine, but feels unimpressive. 

This has been my feeling about a lot of the things I've seen in 2.0 so far.  Admittedly, it's more because I look at their 1.0 counterparts but still a lot of it just feels kinda okay but just okay.

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As a fan of Kihraxz, I'm hoping for some more interesting mods. In 1.0 the main ones I used were Hull/Shield upgrades and Stealth Device, usually because nothing else made sense for my playstyle with with either Scum or Imps.

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6 minutes ago, Ikka said:

As a fan of Kihraxz, I'm hoping for some more interesting mods. In 1.0 the main ones I used were Hull/Shield upgrades and Stealth Device, usually because nothing else made sense for my playstyle with with either Scum or Imps.

With Vaksai I typically went engine upgrade/autothrusters because autothrusters are love and repositioning helps on Kihraxzs, though barrel rolls may be better.

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