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Wookiee_Slayer

Dengar got nerfed... AGAIN!

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So Dengar retains his ability to  shoot his focussed revenge at a ship bold enought to attack him in the first place... only this time the devs thought he can't do that all the time. Even though in the old EU he was literally modified to only feel hate and rage until he met his future wife Manaroo... (Sorry spoilers I guess). 

ANYWAY, Dengar now has to use a charge to be able to use his ability and guess how many charges the devs gave the  poor old man? Exactly 1. So Dengar is now pretty much the meaning of a throw-away ability. Even Crackshot has got more mileage out of itself. (I guess thats not true and someone is gonna correct me) But I genuinly think this might be the final blow to the JM5K. First Manaroo, now the ace pilot. He still has an initiative of 6 though so he is not ALL bad but its like one moment he was able to cartwheel and salto  freely and the next moment his legs got cut off...

Afbeeldingsresultaat voor anakin sliced in half gif

 

So yeah... I am not mad, just disappointed.

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13 minutes ago, Jarval said:

The little upwards yellow arrow next to his charge icon means he gets it back every turn.  It's just a way of limiting it to once per turn.

10 minutes ago, Ravenhull said:

Yeah, they gave cards with a ‘once per turn’ mechanic a regenerating charge so that you could show that it was used by flipping the token. 

‘Now the massive nerf to his dial and rotate action...

Oh man am I glad to be proven wrong! Thanks! Now I can sleep without nightmares haunting me tonight!

 

 

Edited by Wookiee_Slayer

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11 minutes ago, william1134 said:

Dengar got nerfed again? 

GOOD! I hate that ship.. It was way too powerful in 1.0 so it got nerfed a little back to a normal ship. Now in 2.0 most ships have been nerfed so it is still probably at a normal power level.

 

Actually it s rather bad (worse than most/all 1.0 PWTs). Might also be rather cheap though. 

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26 minutes ago, william1134 said:

Dengar got nerfed again? 

GOOD! I hate that ship.. It was way too powerful in 1.0 so it got nerfed a little back to a normal ship. Now in 2.0 most ships have been nerfed so it is still probably at a normal power level.

 

Bad experience flying against him? Or are you hating it because of the way his ability works in general?

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The Jumpmaster has no way to turn its turret other than with red linked actions. And the Punishing One only increases the turret to 3 when it is firing forward. Also, the turret has only one arc.
I hate this ship as much as anyone else, but ...

When compared with a YT-2400 it makes me feel even sorry for them.

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1 hour ago, Azrapse said:

The Jumpmaster has no way to turn its turret other than with red linked actions. And the Punishing One only increases the turret to 3 when it is firing forward. Also, the turret has only one arc.
I hate this ship as much as anyone else, but ...

When compared with a YT-2400 it makes me feel even sorry for them.

Yeah, I've hated the Jumpmaster since release, but only giving them a red rotate action seems incredibly harsh. 

I don't mind the nerf to Punishing One so much, I always thought it was a little strange for a single title upgrade (expensive as it was) to grant so much extra power and disparity between ships of the same chassis. Titles should be unique quirks or upgrade paths, not flat stat changes. If you want to represent a ship being customised, that's exactly what all the rest of the upgrades are for. 

But forcing a single arc, 2 dice turret to have to take a stress just to rotate is brutal. It's basically just a forward arc only large base at this point.

 

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29 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

Yeah, I've hated the Jumpmaster since release, but only giving them a red rotate action seems incredibly harsh. 

I don't mind the nerf to Punishing One so much, I always thought it was a little strange for a single title upgrade (expensive as it was) to grant so much extra power and disparity between ships of the same chassis. Titles should be unique quirks or upgrade paths, not flat stat changes. If you want to represent a ship being customised, that's exactly what all the rest of the upgrades are for. 

But forcing a single arc, 2 dice turret to have to take a stress just to rotate is brutal. It's basically just a forward arc only large base at this point.

 

Since it's been confirmed it can take torps, it might play just like the 1.0 Lancer: Torp forward, arc to the side, circle around on the non terrible dial side and never rotate. 

 

Compared to a lot of the other Scum large ships and stuff like the yt-2400 the Jm5k looks pretty trash right now, IMO at least, but it will be playable if it's cheap enough. 

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1 minute ago, LordBlades said:

Since it's been confirmed it can take torps, it might play just like the 1.0 Lancer: Torp forward, arc to the side, circle around on the non terrible dial side and never rotate. 

 

Compared to a lot of the other Scum large ships and stuff like the yt-2400 the Jm5k looks pretty trash right now, IMO at least, but it will be playable if it's cheap enough. 

Yeah, perhaps they have gone back to the idea of it being the Scum torpedo boat, now with a super crappy turret.
However, even in that case, it would be lacking a reload action, even if it is red.
Because of that, it feels like a worse torpedo platform than a Y-wing. Or at least I would take a Y-wing instead of that.
Also a worse turret platform than a Dorsal turret Y-wing because of the red rotate action and the larger base. Sure, you can attack at range 3, but a large base is harder to maneuver thru obstacles and other ships, and it stresses you to turn the turret around.
I wonder if it will have a gunner spot, even. It will be tempting to equip the title if only for being able to equip the maneuvering astromech to decrease the difficulty of the dial for compensating for those red rotation actions.

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23 minutes ago, Azrapse said:


I wonder if it will have a gunner spot, even. It will be tempting to equip the title if only for being able to equip the maneuvering astromech to decrease the difficulty of the dial for compensating for those red rotation actions.

That astromech is small and medium ship only IIRC so it doesn't work. 

 

IMO the title is almost useless. You trade a crew slot for an astromech one (which ATM is strictly worse) and you get +1 die when shooting from the front. Meanwhile a Torp gives you a front arc 4 dice shot regardless which way your arc is pointing. 

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Such fury and outrage over a non-issue. 

 

3 hours ago, Azrapse said:

The Jumpmaster has no way to turn its turret other than with red linked actions. And the Punishing One only increases the turret to 3 when it is firing forward. Also, the turret has only one arc.
I hate this ship as much as anyone else, but ...

When compared with a YT-2400 it makes me feel even sorry for them.

This is true, but it's also one of the few ship that can get mods while rotating its arc. 

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Dengar will be way cheaper than Dash fir sure. Yeah it has been referred but a I6 pilot with barrel roll large base is still a thing. And with less I6 pilots around he shouldn't have much trouble keeping people in arc.

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2 hours ago, Azrapse said:

Yeah, perhaps they have gone back to the idea of it being the Scum torpedo boat, now with a super crappy turret.
However, even in that case, it would be lacking a reload action, even if it is red.
Because of that, it feels like a worse torpedo platform than a Y-wing. Or at least I would take a Y-wing instead of that.
Also a worse turret platform than a Dorsal turret Y-wing because of the red rotate action and the larger base. Sure, you can attack at range 3, but a large base is harder to maneuver thru obstacles and other ships, and it stresses you to turn the turret around.
I wonder if it will have a gunner spot, even. It will be tempting to equip the title if only for being able to equip the maneuvering astromech to decrease the difficulty of the dial for compensating for those red rotation actions.

Well.

The y wing is a fighter craft. 

The jumpmaster is a scout ship.

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you might want to read the whole pilot card and understand whats on it before you flip out like that on the forums. Course not that youre the first and definitely not the last to do it.

Charges are representing limited use abilities. Whether it be a few times a game or once a turn, charges help track that. Theres a little triangle next to the 1 charge, indicating he regens 1 charge every turn. 

The charge is to help track if he revenge shot or not. Nothing more. The only nerf he got was to the ship itself, not him.

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The Punishing One expansion was clearly a perfect storm of misjudgements and game corrections that all rolled into a singularity that was known as the Jumpmaster. So a few bullet points in the 20/20 vision of hindsight

  • The white S-Loop and Cost: Now of course this wasn't the first ship to have a whit reversal maneuver (K-turn/S-loop/T-roll). It was cheaper than the ORS for about 2 points which was less than a hull upgrade and had +1 Agility. So in terms of stats it should be at least the same cost of an ORS. However, another ship was costed at stats and had a white reversal maneuver and that was practically unplayable in the competitive meta, the TIE Defender. A stat line of 3 is good for a small based ship but a point cost starting at 30 killed it. The dial was stiff like a bomber but a white K-turn didn't fix that. A white S-loop however does fix a stiff dial.
  • Torpedoes and Primary Weapon Turrets: Now it was no secret that munitions were under-performing through half of 1st edition's waves. One of the previous wave wave 7 which was supposed to fix that did little to next to nothing in that regards. Then came the problem with torpedo/missiles (that I said was the problem all along) and that is the target lock action. It is too easy to Arc dodge a TL token and a primary firing arc. A combo fixed that however people were realizing that it was a powerful alpha strike on a turret which should not be the case. Back in Wave 4 it was swarms beat turrets, which beat arc dodgers which beat swarms. Well thanks to point fortresses and MOV swarms were becoming a thing of the past. Now what could have fixed that was some good alpha strike ships that could tear through point fortress defense and beat turrets on the damage race. Still in all of FFG's infinite wisdom they tied the correction to point fortressing into turrets. Twin-laser turret and Jumpmasters. As you see this was essentially turning rock into lava-rock which can set paper on fire as easily as it can smash scissors.
  • Mindlink Action Economy and Stress Control: So mindlink was supposed to be a risk reward. You get more focus tokens (the most powerful token in the game) but you are more exposed to stress. Thing is the game at that point had a lot of stress mitigation so it didn't really matter the extra focus token for all ships was well worth all ships getting stressed. Furthermore PTL made it so you stressed your ships yourself protecting you from many additional stress as they often stop at the first token (i.e. Mara Jade) and you could shed it with a green move on that turn thus it was a benefit to give yourself both stress and focus rather than just focus.

Yeah 1.0 jumpmaster was broken FFG had to make a lot of corrections (ones that IMHO turned out to be more of a determent to the game than a benefit) and still it was seeing top table play. So question has the 2.0 been hit with the final nerf bat making it as unplayable as a 1st edition TIE Punisher? Well yes and no for many reasons. For one on of the turrets with initiative 6 are going to be one of the most powerful unit on the board if it is not dominated by swarm and (correct me if I am wrong) Dengar is at initiative 6. Sure the turret turns are linked (red) actions, but red actions are easier than red maneuvers and if a player sees he already has a shot lined up, they are not going to use the linked action and save the stress. If there are no ships in arc the link action and a green maneuver will just have to be dialed in next time. Also the white S-loop is gone, that is big because now the reversal maneuver is red. Sure the Jumpmaster can still S-loop but it would rather just turn the turret after a focus/TL and get a modified attack instead of just doing a Sloop/Kturn and have an unmodified attack unless there was a reason (table edge). As for torpedo boats I don't think it will be the alpha striker it used to be as deadeye is removed (and dengar is not a force user). However as an EPT pilot there could be something like predator that will make Dengar a terror to deal with.

Still too soon to tell (as with almost all of 2nd ed.), but we will soon find out.

 

 

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I mean, the 1.e Jm5K got nerfed what 6 times before FFG finally said screw it and just hard-punched its upgrades off to get rid of it finally? And even then Dengar was still common, just not quite as big.
Every nerf they did to it only killed that current build people were abusing, and it was so busted they found a new just as bad build not even a month later.

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The problem all along was that it should have stArted at 30 points (like Wild Space Fringer) not 25 (Like Red Squadron pilot). It was always stupid undercosted.

Honestly, I don’t get why people are complaining about the linked rotate. I’d MUCH rather have that than a rotate by itself. Other turrets are going to need support to get mods after rotating, and that’s ALWAYS more costly than a stress.

 I think it fits the fluff super well of an independent recon ship that can’t get support, so it works extra hard to be independent. It’s cool. And Dengar is always a bit of a Lone Wolf (except when Manaroo’s around).

 I don’t think this will be nearly as bad as expected.

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On 7/4/2018 at 4:39 AM, LordBlades said:

That astromech is small and medium ship only IIRC so it doesn't work. 

 

IMO the title is almost useless. You trade a crew slot for an astromech one (which ATM is strictly worse) and you get +1 die when shooting from the front. Meanwhile a Torp gives you a front arc 4 dice shot regardless which way your arc is pointing. 

Say you're flying dengar.  If you want to be ablet o use his ability to get 2 shots out the front arc, you can't modify the first one (unless you have multiple tokens, because if you spend your TL to modify your shot, you don't get a second shot because you don't have a TL anymore).  Also with dengar, if you're using his ability, you'll run out of torpedo charges mighty quick.  2 rounds of double front-arc shots and you're out of torpedoes.

8 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Honestly, I don’t get why people are complaining about the linked rotate. I’d MUCH rather have that than a rotate by itself. Other turrets are going to need support to get mods after rotating, and that’s ALWAYS more costly than a stress.

The problem is you can ONLY do it as a red action.  Wouldn't be as bad if it was rotate linked into a red focus and/or TL so you had the option of rotating without taking the mods if desired.  Sometimes you don't want the stress.  Especially when you have worse greens than first edition/

Quote

 I don’t think this will be nearly as bad as expected.

I sure hope you're right, because frankly it looks pretty terrible unless it's SUPER cheap.  I can't see the scout getting down to 40 points (running 5?), but I'm not sure I'd even bother trying it out if it still came in at 50.

Edited by VanderLegion

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I don't even think anyone will be up caring about rotate when the bugger finally comes out

Either you're locking it foward or you're locking it inwards as you try to work the asymmetrical dial, unless you're trying to get a choice shot on a lower I opponent

With that dial and red actions, you're looking at a chip as chips torp platform that can double as a disgusting blocker 

I'd be guessing 41 points so you're just shy of running five at a time 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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