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BayushiFugu

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9 minutes ago, Tomello said:

To put it into perspective, a Doji Whisperer has the same Pol skill as Tutori.  A Fan, Kakita Blade, or whatever and you can assure a 4 skill swing for the conflict and then a 2 honor swing when the characters leave play.  That is also not accounting for a Nobile Sac. and/or turning on Voice of Honor.  This card is almost an auto include.

If you are willing to invest 3 cards and 2 or 3 Fate (Doji Whisperer, Ornate Fate or Kakita Blade at +1 Fate, Game of Sadane) to hurt my single card, even if it is Toturi? I'm still coming out ahead. Those cards are not cheap. This goes up with Noble Sacrifice, or Voice of Honor. There are, simply, better, cheaper, and more reliable ways of achieving these effects, and we are not even approaching the sheer tempo advantage that a card like A Fate Worse Than Death can provide.

I DO suspect that this card will be a staple of Crane Clan going forward, but this is not on the same power level as Mirumoto's Fury or Maze of Illusion, or even Policy Debate. It is a good card. It is a thematic card, and one that I suspect the Crane Clan player base will enjoy. It is not a card deserving of being on the Restricted List, however.

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1 minute ago, Saibot said:

 

That is fair, but then For Shame! would have done the same for you, without any need for a duel, the only difference being that you have an honored character left afterwards, but you paid 1F and took the risk of a duel for that.

How risky are duels where the player of the duel card gets to choose the targets?

I don't think it is an end of the game card, just exacerbates the games poor dueling mechanics.

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4 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

If you are willing to invest 3 cards and 2 or 3 Fate (Doji Whisperer, Ornate Fate or Kakita Blade at +1 Fate, Game of Sadane) to hurt my single card, even if it is Toturi? I'm still coming out ahead. Those cards are not cheap. This goes up with Noble Sacrifice, or Voice of Honor. There are, simply, better, cheaper, and more reliable ways of achieving these effects, and we are not even approaching the sheer tempo advantage that a card like A Fate Worse Than Death can provide.

I DO suspect that this card will be a staple of Crane Clan going forward, but this is not on the same power level as Mirumoto's Fury or Maze of Illusion, or even Policy Debate. It is a good card. It is a thematic card, and one that I suspect the Crane Clan player base will enjoy. It is not a card deserving of being on the Restricted List, however.

I don't know.  A two honor swing mitigates a 2 card combo, having your opponent not claim a ring or break a province is the main goal (can also be applied offensively).  I don't think it is restricted list material, but it is an auto include IMO.

Not really sold on Maze, it costs one fate and has a 50/50 chance of working.

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1 minute ago, Tomello said:

Not really sold on Maze, it costs one fate and has a 50/50 chance of working.

Maze its all about Scorpion getting the free Dial spin to turn on other tricks, and Phoenix as an Air card for Uona tricks.

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I understand that, but right now there is really only 1 other useful trick available.  I would still need two more cards to get that combo off (way to dishonor and ICS).  Which if your opponent happened to bid 5 Maze doesn't set up anything.  Sndwurks above said that spending a few fate and 3 cards to hurt a single card is still a losing proposition.

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29 minutes ago, Saibot said:

 

That is fair, but then For Shame! would have done the same for you, without any need for a duel, the only difference being that you have an honored character left afterwards, but you paid 1F and took the risk of a duel for that.

If Crane For Shames one of my guys with 3 fate I will seriously consider bowing because of the threat of Noble Sac. Crane does not have a card in clan that just says dishonor target character. This card comes close to being that, which makes Noble Sac more reliable. 

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26 minutes ago, Tomello said:

How risky are duels where the player of the duel card gets to choose the targets?

I don't think it is an end of the game card, just exacerbates the games poor dueling mechanics.

Well, that is just the thing: Unlike PD which you could not protect against because your opponent would just pick the next easiest target if you buff anyone, here you can specifically buff your big dudes who are at risk to stay within the interesting duel range (0-3). And as was said before, if a small target is bullied the payoff is significantly lower.

But for the record before I am misunderstood: I think this is a really good card and it will find a home in most Crane decks and quite a few Crane splashes.

Edited by Saibot
Fixed pronouns

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Best and simplest use for the Game is to use it as an easy honor for your big guy, and whoever you dishonor is basically just an honor loss on the opponent. Lets you draw more cards and keep the honor engine rolling. 1 fate hurts the duel a lot, but not beyond playability in my opinion. Just don't get too cute with it.

That new ishiken is amazing, though. That's what I want from my cheap shugenja. I'm usually happy when my Ishiken Initiates get up to 3/3, and they cost me an extra fate and conflict draw. This is easily my 1-drop of choice now for shugenja-based Phoenix decks. It'll only be strong in one conflict, but as long as you plan your turn out, you should be able to get it into that conflict without difficulty.

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2 minutes ago, AradonTemplar said:

Best and simplest use for the Game is to use it as an easy honor for your big guy, and whoever you dishonor is basically just an honor loss on the opponent. Lets you draw more cards and keep the honor engine rolling. 1 fate hurts the duel a lot, but not beyond playability in my opinion. Just don't get too cute with it.

That new ishiken is amazing, though. That's what I want from my cheap shugenja. I'm usually happy when my Ishiken Initiates get up to 3/3, and they cost me an extra fate and conflict draw. This is easily my 1-drop of choice now for shugenja-based Phoenix decks. It'll only be strong in one conflict, but as long as you plan your turn out, you should be able to get it into that conflict without difficulty.

It can also act as a deterrent to your opponent.  Do they want to declare that ring with a fate you're eyeing  knowing they're giving you a 3/3 body for it, or do they take the other ring with a fate leaving you to claim and use the ring effect you're more interested in. 

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20 hours ago, Tomello said:

How risky are duels where the player of the duel card gets to choose the targets?

I don't think it is an end of the game card, just exacerbates the games poor dueling mechanics.

If they made duels that risky, no one would ever use them, short of a much bigger, game-swinging effect than any currently existing version. And hen they' build their own character to make sure they can't lose he duel regardless of who you pick (because the investment is worth it), and we'd still have the same complaints.

An action card in a card game is inherently meant to be an unfair card - something that gives a significant advantage to the player playing it over the one not playing it. If it doesn't give you that kind of significant advantage (or often won't dipue to being a "risky card", why play it? Deck space is a limited ressource. Actions are a limited ressource - for every one you take, the opponent get one too. If you waste yours on a risky move that doesn't pay off (or worse, end up hurting you), your opponents basically get two actions in a row (three if your risky action end up hurting you). So "risky" actions, especially actions that gave your opponent too much control over the results, end up being coaster. As they should.

Edited by Himoto

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Action's aren't a limited resource, and never have been. You can take as many actions as you want or need. Your opponent is going to take as many as they want or need. The only thing that's valuable about them is speed, and it's only relevant for the set cards that care about relative power, like Kachiko, Rout/Outwit, LPB, and duels, and even then only if you have the ability (and intent) to race their strength. Many cards actually benefit from being delayed until the end of the action sequence, like Mirumoto's Fury and For Shame.

Depending on the cards I'm holding, I'd often happily let my opponent play any number of their actions before playing mine, especially if I'm going to do something that will negate a character entirely. It's to my advantage to see who will be the most valuable target after they've spent their cards. Fortunately, the game doesn't promote this sort of 'wait and see' mentality because if you pass your action to just wait, the opponent may never hand it back to you.

 

But no, if you play a card that ends up having no result (getting cancelled or something similar), the only thing you've lost is the card in your hand, in most cases.

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On 7/3/2018 at 10:37 AM, phillos said:

Shadowlands players should be cheering.  They can pretty easily build a back door Shadowlands deck now in Crab.

I'm somewhat mixed.  I was really hoping there would be more neutral Shadowlands cards or that each clan would have a Shadowlands card.  I want to be able to corrupt everyone.

Crab is a good of a place to start as any other clan...... So hey guys can I come play at the wall with you?

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4 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

I'm somewhat mixed.  I was really hoping there would be more neutral Shadowlands cards or that each clan would have a Shadowlands card.  I want to be able to corrupt everyone.

Crab is a good of a place to start as any other clan...... So hey guys can I come play at the wall with you?

Do not lose hope yet. With the ongoing Tadaka plotline I could at the very least imagine a Phoenix maho spell still coming.

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Just now, Kaito Kikaze said:

The design team has hinted that what comes next year is going to play heavily into the value of honor/dishonor. Sounds like Maho and Shadowlands to me! And probably more pirates.

Or simply the "Honor cycle". Essentially, just as everyone got some Phoenix lite tricks this cycle, everyone gets Lion lite tricks next cycle

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6 hours ago, Kaito Kikaze said:

The design team has hinted that what comes next year is going to play heavily into the value of honor/dishonor. Sounds like Maho and Shadowlands to me! And probably more pirates.

I believe Tyler said something more along the line of "bids will matter" which is clearly a response to the current Bid 5 meta.

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2 hours ago, Danwarr said:

I believe Tyler said something more along the line of "bids will matter" which is clearly a response to the current Bid 5 meta.

Aw, I like the bid 5 meta.  It means that I get to take 4 honour off almost everyone on the first turn, which is a wonderful kick-start to dishonouring them out.

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4 hours ago, Danwarr said:

I believe Tyler said something more along the line of "bids will matter" which is clearly a response to the current Bid 5 meta.

It would be easy enough to do. Just make abilities and events trigger off certain having certain honour dial values rather than just being higher/lower than your opponents. Or just have certain abilites be powered up when your honour Dail says a certain number. Eg an event "give a character +2 pol. If your honour dial value is 2,  gain an honor". Pump enough playable cards with triggers like that and you might start changing the bid 5 meta. 

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2 hours ago, Jamadman said:

 

It would be easy enough to do. Just make abilities and events trigger off certain having certain honour dial values rather than just being higher/lower than your opponents. Or just have certain abilites be powered up when your honour Dail says a certain number. Eg an event "give a character +2 pol. If your honour dial value is 2,  gain an honor". Pump enough playable cards with triggers like that and you might start changing the bid 5 meta. 

The problem with cards that play off the dial is they do nothing if you don't meet the trigger conditions. The only card like with those restrictions that has seen any kind of play has been I can Swim because Scorpion's SH gives them more flexibility to play it at later points in the game. Good Omen and Test of Courage are almost never used.

There need to be more cards that punish Bid 5 that aren't Way of the Chrysanthemum.

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2 hours ago, Danwarr said:

The problem with cards that play off the dial is they do nothing if you don't meet the trigger conditions. The only card like with those restrictions that has seen any kind of play has been I can Swim because Scorpion's SH gives them more flexibility to play it at later points in the game. Good Omen and Test of Courage are almost never used.

There need to be more cards that punish Bid 5 that aren't Way of the Chrysanthemum.

It does not necessarily need to be everything about punishing Bid 5. Rewarding lower bids*, higher Honor or smaller hands are all options.

Technically all of these already exist (Good Omen, many Lion cards, Disdainful Remark), but we have not reached a critical mass yet. Also many of the lower bid rewards only really become valuable later in the game when often times both players have already regressed to Bid 1. Keeping your roided out characters around with Good Omen sounds decent on paper but rarely works out in praxis. More cards that give a great edge for a low bid right from the start would be good.

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5 minutes ago, Saibot said:

It does not necessarily need to be everything about punishing Bid 5. Rewarding lower bids*, higher Honor or smaller hands are all options.

Technically all of these already exist (Good Omen, many Lion cards, Disdainful Remark), but we have not reached a critical mass yet. Also many of the lower bid rewards only really become valuable later in the game when often times both players have already regressed to Bid 1. Keeping your roided out characters around with Good Omen sounds decent on paper but rarely works out in praxis. More cards that give a great edge for a low bid right from the start would be good.

The problem is in most situation the player who has the more cards can simply leverage that card advantage to win.  Yes you can bid 1 versus their 5 on turn 1 and drop their honor, but then to maintain that advantage you have to keep bidding 1 limiting your hand while they have the 4 card advantage from their opening bid.  And yes there are decks that are built to leverage the honor advantage that this gives, but they are susceptible to ring resolutions (if you aren't winning Earth and Air odds are you aren't leveraging your advantages, and even worse if they are getting those rings off against you).  And outside of Scorpion and Crab its difficult to get the dishonor closer you need to really seal the deal with those decks.

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9 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

The problem is in most situation the player who has the more cards can simply leverage that card advantage to win.  Yes you can bid 1 versus their 5 on turn 1 and drop their honor, but then to maintain that advantage you have to keep bidding 1 limiting your hand while they have the 4 card advantage from their opening bid.  And yes there are decks that are built to leverage the honor advantage that this gives, but they are susceptible to ring resolutions (if you aren't winning Earth and Air odds are you aren't leveraging your advantages, and even worse if they are getting those rings off against you).  And outside of Scorpion and Crab its difficult to get the dishonor closer you need to really seal the deal with those decks.

Yep, exactly. Which is why you want those rewards. Essentially, the idea would be that with the right conflict deck or dynasty flop, being honorable is indeed stronger than steel. What about a character who gets +X MIL/POL where X is the difference in the current hand size of the players? The less honorable can close the gap by being more generous with their plays but at the same time has to make inefficient plays to get rid off cards in hand. What about a deck search effect that only works when you are more honorable? You have less options, but can often have the better options (for the current game situation anyhow). What about a card that gives you a round-long advantage of some kind that is played as a Reaction to having the lower bid?

The design space is there, but so far only Lion and Scorpion have really played with it and with Scorpion mostly in that way that they are encouraged to dishonorable behavior, which is obviously fitting for Scorpion but is also how currently most clans are encouraged to play right now.

Edited by Saibot

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