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ThreeAM

Astrogation Failure

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20 minutes ago, themensch said:

I snipped a fair bit here but I wanted to see if you could find ways to add more Setback dice to the other players' checks - I like to do that instead of just increasing difficulty (although I'd do it like you did here) so that the players can use Talents to remove them.  The scene you describe seems like it contains ample opportunities for both Setback and Boost dice, I just let the players come up with good reasons for the Boost. 

Funny you should mention that because I am certainly going to! I actually use a few house rules that allow me to do this.

  • 1. Any talent that removes setback, instead grants a boost if there are no setbacks. (its minor and rarely comes up as I can usually find an excuse for setback). 
  • 2. I am using a house ruled system for piloting and gunnery checks  vs the books, its similar but slightly different.  I'm going to write it up and put it out as a separate topic, but long story short it's easier to add setbacks/boosts imo.

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3 hours ago, ThreeAM said:

I remember a discussion on the forums a while back about how far do you need to be from a planet to jump, but couldn't find it. The summary was this; you need to get clear of the planet's gravity well to jump, thus justifying a couple turns before you can jump.

Just a side note:  both TCW and Rebels have episodes where the jump starts within the atmosphere of a planet, so the gravity well is not necessarily a barrier, especially if the safety overrides have been disabled or compromised.  For the game mechanics, it could certainly justify making things more difficult (increasing or upgrading) or it's just considered part of the "terrain".  One way to leverage that would be to start out at RRRRR, and then let the players decide when to risk a jump.  Each turn they get further away from a gravity well decreases/downgrades the difficulty (to a minimum of X).

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6 minutes ago, whafrog said:

Just a side note:  both TCW and Rebels have episodes where the jump starts within the atmosphere of a planet, so the gravity well is not necessarily a barrier, especially if the safety overrides have been disabled or compromised.  For the game mechanics, it could certainly justify making things more difficult (increasing or upgrading) or it's just considered part of the "terrain".  One way to leverage that would be to start out at RRRRR, and then let the players decide when to risk a jump.  Each turn they get further away from a gravity well decreases/downgrades the difficulty (to a minimum of X).

Pretty much. The Gravity well is only a barrier if it's in front of your ship. If it's behind you, it's no big deal. 

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28 minutes ago, whafrog said:

Just a side note:  both TCW and Rebels have episodes where the jump starts within the atmosphere of a planet, so the gravity well is not necessarily a barrier, especially if the safety overrides have been disabled or compromised.  For the game mechanics, it could certainly justify making things more difficult (increasing or upgrading) or it's just considered part of the "terrain".  One way to leverage that would be to start out at RRRRR, and then let the players decide when to risk a jump.  Each turn they get further away from a gravity well decreases/downgrades the difficulty (to a minimum of X).

Yeah I agree, just make the difficulty super high.

Also han jumps directly out of a ship hanger and into an atmosphere in ep 7. Rather than deny the roll, he could still attempt  the roll, it must have just been a "flip a destiny point to even attempt this crazy roll" moment.

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6 hours ago, ThreeAM said:

Yeah I agree, just make the difficulty super high.

Also han jumps directly out of a ship hanger and into an atmosphere in ep 7. Rather than deny the roll, he could still attempt  the roll, it must have just been a "flip a destiny point to even attempt this crazy roll" moment.

To be fair, its not really consistent with the rest of the Star Wars materials

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7 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Pretty much. The Gravity well is only a barrier if it's in front of your ship. If it's behind you, it's no big deal. 

Tell this to an Interdictor cruiser

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10 hours ago, Rimsen said:

Tell this to an Interdictor cruiser

I think all these gravity-well issues are plot devices, not something that needs to be addressed in the game mechanics.  If there's an Interdictor, you can't jump until you fool it, divert it, destroy it, etc.

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14 hours ago, Rimsen said:

Tell this to an Interdictor cruiser

Well, Interdictors are usually set up in the path of oncoming ships to begin with, not behind them. Also, an interdictor is designed to create mass shadows which fill a rather extensive spherical volume inside of which ships can't jump into hyperspace. This is because it tricks the navicomputer into thinking that the shop is currently inside of a large celestial body, rather than that body being behind it. 

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2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Well, Interdictors are usually set up in the path of oncoming ships to begin with, not behind them. Also, an interdictor is designed to create mass shadows which fill a rather extensive spherical volume inside of which ships can't jump into hyperspace. This is because it tricks the navicomputer into thinking that the shop is currently inside of a large celestial body, rather than that body being behind it. 

Which you would think that if the gravity well isnt a real impediment to jumping, that there would be an override to keep an interdictor from preventing escape. Basically a way to force the ship to jump over the navicomp's instructions.

It goes back to what whafrog said about the restrictions on jumping being a plot device more than a physical law.

Edited by korjik

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2 minutes ago, korjik said:

Which you would think that if the gravity well isnt a real impediment to jumping, that there would be an override to keep an interdictor from preventing escape. Basically a way to force the ship to jump over the navicomp's instructions.

The problem is a matter of where the gravity well is in relation to the ship in question. In particular, whether it’s in front, behind, or all around. 

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4 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The problem is a matter of where the gravity well is in relation to the ship in question. In particular, whether it’s in front, behind, or all around. 

Per Rebels, the gravity well bubble is centred on the Interdictor, extending far enough away as the plot requires to trigger a drop from hyperspace.

7 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

This is because it tricks the navicomputer into thinking that the shop is currently inside of a large celestial body, rather than that body being behind it. 

That's the old Legends/WEG description, but Rebels kind of destroys that idea.  The two scenes involving the Interdictor show the targets being yanked out of hyperspace rather violently.  If the hyperdrive was "tricked", I'd have expected it to just switch off and pop them back into real space without so much fuss.

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20 hours ago, whafrog said:

Per Rebels, the gravity well bubble is centred on the Interdictor, extending far enough away as the plot requires to trigger a drop from hyperspace.

That's the old Legends/WEG description, but Rebels kind of destroys that idea.  The two scenes involving the Interdictor show the targets being yanked out of hyperspace rather violently.  If the hyperdrive was "tricked", I'd have expected it to just switch off and pop them back into real space without so much fuss.

Nope, even in Legends, being unexpectedly pulled out of hyperspace because the safeties kicked in, whether because of an Interdictor or the mass shadow of an actual celestial body, is a very violent occurrence. Of course it’s still much better than crashing into said celestial body. There is no difference between Legends and the new Canon as to how Interdictors work. 

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2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Nope, even in Legends, being unexpectedly pulled out of hyperspace because the safeties kicked in, whether because of an Interdictor or the mass shadow of an actual celestial body, is a very violent occurrence.

You must not have seen the Rebels episode.  They try to jump, and are yanked back, practically sideways.  That's not "safeties kicking in", that's a physical pull.

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2 minutes ago, whafrog said:

You must not have seen the Rebels episode.  They try to jump, and are yanked back, practically sideways.  That's not "safeties kicking in", that's a physical pull.

Yes, and that’s also how the Interdictor worked in Legends. The ship is pulled out of hyperspace in the direction of the Mass shadow. The reason why they are pulled out is because Hyperdrives automatically kick out when in, or about to hit, a mass shadow. This yanks the ship back into real space very abruptly. It isn’t a smooth transition. 

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On 6/28/2018 at 6:28 PM, whafrog said:

This treats Astrogation as "making the hyperdrive work".  I don't think that's what the skill is for.  It's simply to plot a path*.  The failure is whether the path will cause problems, not whether the hyperdrive kicks in.

* sure Astrogation can be used for other things:  general knowledge of space lanes, trade routes, general sector information, etc.  I just meant in the context of the encounter.

 

This is a valid point, although rather than "making the hyperdrive work" I would interpret my explanation as "plotting the course so that the hypdrive can be turned on safely".

 

On 6/28/2018 at 6:28 PM, Darzil said:

Where is this rule ?

On 6/28/2018 at 6:22 PM, whafrog said:

I wasn't aware of the Silhouette countdown, but it sounds like I'd have dispensed with it...as with so much else about how space is handled in this game.  It's one of these arbitrary slap-together rules that has no basis in the media:  there is nothing in any movie or show that says bigger ships need more time.  Instead, they are always trying to get to a jump point without being blown to bits, and they have to face the right direction.  The Rebels show is pretty clear about this.

It's a houserule.  I've used it - it's OK, but @whafrog's points are fairly valid.  I actually hadn't really given much thought to the importance of facing in the right direction - that's so obvious!  Thanks.

 

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How I deal with it is to set a target threshold of a number of successes, then allow one roll per round, totalling up the successes.  So if you need 5 successes to make the jump, it could take you 1 round, or 20 rounds, depending on how well you roll.  Advantage, threat, despair and triumph may be spent as they are earned, or added to the total pool for the final event.

So - assume the jump requires 5 successes.  Base Diff 3P

Round 1 - GM spends destiny, player is hampered by environmental conditions, difficulty 1R2P1B.  Rolls 2 success, 1 threat.  Add 2 success to the "Jump pool", and GM chooses to add threat to Jump Pool, rather than spend it immediately.

Round 2 - Other players resolve environmental conditions, no destiny point, difficulty 3P.  Rolls 2 success, 3 advantage.  Add 2 success to the "jump pool", and player chooses to add 1 advantage to Jump pool, cancelling the threat.  Spends 1 advantage normally, inspiring the next character to get a blue.

Round 3 - GM spends destiny, and ship receives critical damage upgrading difficulty, difficulty 2R1P.  Roll 1 Success, 1 Despair.  1 success added to Jump Pool, GM adds despair to Jump pool.  Pool is complete at 5 successes.  Next round, automatic successful Jump with Despair.  GM decides the last hit was actually a tracking device to use the Despair.

 

Edited by Edgookin

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I'm just going to throw in my personal take on the Astrogation rules that I use in my campaigns.

First, I assign a base time of 4 rounds for plotting any hyperspace jump. Then I add 2 rounds for every setback dice that route has (I assign from 0 to 3 setback based on how heavily travelled and well-explored that particular route is. In the Outer Rim most routes get at least 1 setback.) If the astrogator has the Galaxy Mapper talent it removes the setback dice but not the +2 rounds modifier; that is dealt with by halving all plotting times.

Then, as soon as the PCs want (and are able to) they make their Astrogation check. With a single success they jump to their destination in the appropriate number of rounds. Each success beyond the first reduces the calculation time by 1 round to a minimum of 1 round. A Triumph can be spent to reduce the plotting time to 1 round, regardless. So at that point all they have to do is wait for X rounds until the nav computer spits out a course, then pull the lever on the pilot, copilot or astrogator's next turn.

If they fail the check I usually have a couple of options ready. Since I don't bother with trivial Astrogation checks I always know when an important one comes up so I am somewhat prepared. Sometimes failure can add rounds to the time takes, to the tune of 1 round per failure. An alternative, if I believe hanging around that long will either get the players blown up or lead to a long, boring slog of a chase or battle, I have them enter hyperspace but reappear somewhere other than where they wanted to go.

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On 7/3/2018 at 9:42 AM, Edgookin said:

How I deal with it is to set a target threshold of a number of successes, then allow one roll per round, totalling up the successes.  So if you need 5 successes to make the jump, it could take you 1 round, or 20 rounds, depending on how well you roll.  Advantage, threat, despair and triumph may be spent as they are earned, or added to the total pool for the final event.

So - assume the jump requires 5 successes.  Base Diff 3P

 

This is how I handle it, as well. A bonus side-effect is getting the high-Intellect character involved in the space "battle" each round.

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