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Boris_the_Dwarf

Strike 3

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4 hours ago, Nohwear said:

Sorry, but small pet peeve.  Lightyears is a measure of distance, not time.

Isn't it a reference point of both time and distance such that it can be used to distinguish either?

If your speedometer is in lightyears per hour, and you are traveling at x lph, you know both how much distance you are covering per interval and how long it will take to get to your destination.

But maybe my perception is skewed... in Michigan we measure distance almost exclusively by referencing the time it takes to get somewhere. 

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18 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

As 1e pretty conclusively proved though, a rock solid baseline does not remain rock solid, and the development cycle for fixes often winds up fishtailing wildly because they design fixes for problems that stopped being problems a year and a half ago, or design fixes that worked for a meta a year and a half ago but are awful today and only getting worse.

In short: the ability to vary points and slots flexibly and responsively should be useful to actually improve a lot of the things you mention over the currect state of 1e.

Eh, IMHO, 1.0 could have been much better tempered with the vigorous application of the ban hammer.  The fixes fishtailed wildly because broken components weren't removed, they were designed around.

Unfortunately, banning was considered anathema to most players because FFG would be removing game components "I paid good money for."

Not surprising, those broken components are not going to port over to 2.0.  And oddly, people are willing to shuck out $50 more for a game upgrade missing the very components they were unwilling to see banned from 1.0.

I also wonder, in my tinfoil hat cynicism, if some late-stage 1.0 disasters (Harpoon Missiles and Bomblet Generator) weren't intentionally foisted on 1.0 because they knew 2.0 was in the works and they wanted to see what these cards would do in the wild.  (Vis-a-vis, the "swarms are already dead" comment.)

The best thing about 2.0 is that everything is now designed at the same level, and some ships really couldn't have been updated easily without a 2.0-level revision.  Whether they can maintain that moving forward without wildly fishtailing point values is the million-dollar question.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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9 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

The best thing about 2.0 is that everything is now designed at the same level, and some ships really couldn't have been updated easily without a 2.0-level revision.  Whether they can maintain that moving forward without fishtailing point values is the million-dollar question.

Probably in some years a new edition, 3.0, will be needed to reset stuff, clean rule problems, and retake lost concepts again. Not that that's a bad thing.

Edited by RafaelNN
Grammar

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17 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Eh, IMHO, 1.0 could have been much better tempered with the vigorous application of the ban hammer.  The fixes fishtailed wildly because broken components weren't removed, they were designed around.

Unfortunately, banning was considered anathema to most players because FFG would be removing game components "I paid good money for."

Not surprising, those broken components are not going to port over to 2.0.  And oddly, people are willing to shuck out $50 more for a game upgrade missing the very components they were unwilling to see banned from 1.0.

I also wonder, in my tinfoil hat cynicism, if some late-stage 1.0 disasters (Harpoon Missiles and Bomblet Generator) weren't intentionally foisted on 1.0 because they knew 2.0 was in the works and they wanted to see what these cards would do in the wild.  (Vis-a-vis, the "swarms are already dead" comment.)

The best thing about 2.0 is that everything is now designed at the same level, and some ships really couldn't have been updated easily without a 2.0-level revision.  Whether they can maintain that moving forward without wildly fishtailing point values is the million-dollar question.

Fishtailing shouldn't happen anywhere near as much.  It was largely a function of the very long development time, more than it was a function of the game itself.  When the sum total of the development time for point changes is 'looking at the numbers, changing a PDF and an app' as opposed to 'a year and a half of design, production, shipping, etc', it should be a lot easier to make flexible fixes.

Should.

I have high hopes, but relatively low expectations.

Even with those low expectations, it's pretty tough to be worse than 1e.

E: and looking back, it's pretty obvious they were testing mechanics as far back as the Shadow Caster, if not further.  I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that a lot of the weirdness in the most recent waves over the past two or three years was basically because the designers were occupying a lot of time testing for 2e, and because even when they were designing 1e they were stress testing what stuff they could drop in from 2e.

I'm thinking about stuff like Ello's ability, for instance, which could have been testing for a new manoeuvre colour, etc.

Edited by thespaceinvader

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5 minutes ago, RafaelNN said:

Probably in some years a new edition, 3.0, will be needed to reset stuff, clean rule problems, and retake lost concepts again. Not that that's a bad thing.

Eh.  At 50, I've updated my music collection thru vinyl to cassettes, to CDs, but now everything is MP3s.  And ironically, vinyl is back.

My videos have gone from Beta to VHS to DVD and now it's BluRay.

Eventually, you get tired of chasing The Next Improvement (that's really not--Star Wars is the same story regardless of media).

The notion that a 3.0 reset would happen in 5 years would be a big disincentive to bother with this upgrade.  (For me.)

 

 

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Honestly, expecting any living game to survive that long without some major changes is a pretty big risk to take.  Only very, very few properties last that long at all, let alone lasting that long without SOME sort of major development cycling, be it bans of older content, or new editions.

Unrealistic expectations help nothing.

(personally, I'd be perfectly happy with banlists or content cycling rather than a new edition, but I wouldn't have been in 1e.  It was always a flawed core game.

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13 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

it's pretty tough to be worse than 1e.

I guess I really didn't have that low of an opinion of 1e.

BUT:

There was no way certain ships (Squints, Eyeballs, the T-65, etc.) were ever going to become relevant again without crazy fixes or throwing EVERYTHING back into the pot and stirring vigorously.

Let's just hope they got the seasoning right.

Quote

 It was always a flawed core game.

The core game wasn't flawed; at its heart XWM is still the same game as always.

But it was a primitive beginning (Waves 1-3) messily stapled to a more evolved version of itself.

Again, let's hope that 2.0 does the job of putting a nice even coat on everything.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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15 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

The core game wasn't flawed; at its heart XWM is still the same game as always.

 But it was a primitive beginning (Waves 1-3) messily stapled to a more evolved version of itself.

Again, let's hope that 2.0 does the job of putting a nice even coat on everything.

No, the core game wasn’t flawed. I mean there were no fundamental problems with mechanics, except maybe evade (which is now changed to how it should have been), but it was already unbalanced. I remember playing the first few games and we immediately saw that the TIE Fighter was the most powerful ship.

Something which would have been easily fixed, had we had an app back then.

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1e had core problems which could not easily be fixed in 1e:

the turret mechanic being the biggest and worst

the lack of remaining design space caused by the absence of the various base markings 2e adds

the lack of templating and keywording, and general poor rules writing, especially in early waves

the lack of inclusion in core rules of a dozen or so core mechanics, which were published only in expac rulebooks/reference cards

the lack of a single unified docking and undocking mechanic, that having been published in several different ways across three expacs

the action mechanics in general - the designers of the early waves fundamentally didn't get how vital certain actions were, and how much some ships needed them more than others

and the pricing structures in general - the designers of the early waves heavily overvalued empty slots and certain dial elements

 

Many of these could have been fixed without needing a new edition, had FFG had radically different policies on errata, particularly regarding point costs, and had they been willing to publish cardboard-only packs to upgrade bases.

 

They chose to fix them with a new edition, which serves basically the same purpose.

 

As you rightly state, one of the biggest flaws was that it was a half-finished game in the first few waves, and it never got properly finished off.  Until now.

 

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On 6/26/2018 at 6:30 AM, Jike said:

Citation needed here as well. "Most are not [fine with changes]"? Not sure where you get that from. Anecdote does not equal evidence. If we're trading anecdotes anyway it looks like virtually every player I've spoken to, including fairly casual players, are pretty excited about 2nd edition, though often less so about spending more money. It's also worth noting that forums are never really representative of the community as a whole, regardless of what community you're talking about. For every forumite quietly walking away of vociferously defending FFG there are dozens of not hundreds, of people not interacting online at all.

Maybe it's because most come from a wargaming background, but there's more of an acceptance of edition change from that side of things, IME. Also, keeping older games running in the face of new editions is often a very difficult task. Obviously, small, self-contained groups can do what they want, which is great, but on the whole the game is sustained and grown through clubs, stores and tournaments and they need a common, supported ruleset.

lol i agree that anecdotes are not evidence, and most of the rest you said.

i was quoting the "citation needed" that another user keeps posting in response to my opinions and anecdotes to point out how ridiculous it is.

that said, youre using "Most" exactly the same way im saying"Most"... it isnt correct when you say it and wrong when i say it.   we are both describing the playerbase we have knowledge about with the assumption that those players are a fair representation of the group as a whole.

Most if not all of the people I know who played this game have quit, and most of the places I was able to play this game have stopped X-wing nights. most of the friendly users i'd chat with on this board are not posting anymore after voicing complaints. thats all fact.   you may also factually state that the majority of people you know still play, and if thats true you absolutely should say so.  but your implication that the majority of non-forum players are okay with buying upgrade kits is as entirely a assumption as my assumption that most are not.  point is theres no point trying to correct someone on their personal experience because you are guaranteed to be wrong, and there's no point correcting an opinion because you literally cannot.  

I'm also a wargammer, started playing Warhammer 40k in 1993, and ive been playing dozens of miniature and computer games in the genre for decades. Its foolish to assume your opinion is informed and someone elses is not

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On 6/26/2018 at 12:40 AM, Ikka said:

Citation for scheduled changes to balance.

AMA with Max Brooke and Frank Brooks. https://www.reddit.com/r/XWingTMG/comments/8pbgdj/ama_about_xwing_second_edition_with_max_brooke/

 

Specific section below:

 

"[–]Mattman7306Pure Sabaac: Like OL, but bad! 41 points42 points43 points 18 days ago

In other game systems, like Magic, balance updates happen in regular intervals. How frequently can we expect a re-balancing of points? Outside of scheduled updates, if something is quickly shown to be unhealthy for the game, is the option of an emergency update to the app/points something you are willing to do?

 

[–]fantasyflightgames[S] 39 points40 points41 points 18 days ago

FB: We are planning on making point adjustments on a scheduled basis. Only a handful times of year. We are still settling down on how often, but the numbers we are looking at right now are between 3 and 4. You shouldn’t run into a problem where in the time between when you leave your house to go to the event and when you arrive, points have changed.

MB: In terms of emergency updates, we would very much like people to be confident that the point values are accurate, so this isn't something we would want to use unless it was absolutely necessary, but never say never!"

 

 

However, if you are talking about whether or not people will stick to 1.0 over 2.0, you can look at most games that update their rules and see that in general the majority of players will switch to a new and updated rule set rather than stay with an older, unsupported rule set. Look at everything from Warmachine 2.0 going to 3.0, Malifaux's 2nd Edition, every Warhammer 40k new edition ever- you see the majority of players converting over to the new system. ****, even one of the most controversial rules changes in recent years, Warhammer Fantasy Battles changing to Age of Sigmar, resulted in a mainly neutral overall position in regards to both player numbers and profits. Just because your specific group is selling off, or eBay values are lessening (which I haven't seen- and I've been trolling for ships to get to fill out conversion kits for Scum/Empire) does not mean that as a whole players are quitting. We won't be able to tell that until after the switchover.

I haven't seen too many people actively being nasty/rude to those that dislike the changes- it seems that most people would rather know more information to base their opinions on rather than what we know now. Both sides (anti-2.0 and pro-2.0) have their vocal minorities, but that means less in the real world than it does in an internet echo chamber.

I appreciate that you're trying to respond in a constructive way, but why did you relate that first part to me? those articles dont involve anything I'm saying or said previously.

as to the second half regarding people converting, I have only anecdotal evidence(as do we all), but it all says the conversion is unpopular.

that anecdotal evidence is:

1) everyone i know who played quit, all 10  people in my playgroup. i cant find anyone to play with locally either

2) most of the people i liked talking to on the forums voiced displeasure and/or stopped posting. 

3) i buy and sell on EBAY alot, and i track prices for x-wing resale.  it has massively tanked.  it was dropping slowly before the wave 2 announcement, but immediately after it just fell out. went from about 75 cents on the dollar to like 25 cents.  im having trouble selling the rest of my collection for even half what its worth, including pro painted ships.  tetsy sales have also slowed from what i can tell

4)  the number of used listings spiked after the wave 2 announcement.  Dozens of $500 to $1000 dollar collections went up immediately after the announcement.   on a related note new custom painted ships by pros are not being listed as frequently

5) several game stores and bookstores i frequent stopped selling selling x-wing

so who knows?  past research on games like warhammer shows many old players quit but are replaced by new players when new editions launch. maybe thats whats happening

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39 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

I appreciate that you're trying to respond in a constructive way, but why did you relate that first part to me? those articles dont involve anything I'm saying or said previously.

The first part was in response to the first part of my original comment you quoted, which was about the app using scheduled/regular balancing updates being a good thing. I had no real way of knowing what portion of my comment you were referencing when you quoted it, due to you quoting the entire thing.

 

39 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

1) everyone i know who played quit, all 10  people in my playgroup. i cant find anyone to play with locally either

2) most of the people i liked talking to on the forums voiced displeasure and/or stopped posting.  

5) several game stores and bookstores i frequent stopped selling selling x-wing

As you said, these are anecdotal evidence, limited to A- your local area and B- your forum contacts.

39 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

3) i buy and sell on EBAY alot, and i track prices for x-wing resale.  it has massively tanked.  it was dropping slowly before the wave 2 announcement, but immediately after it just fell out. went from about 75 cents on the dollar to like 25 cents.  im having trouble selling the rest of my collection for even half what its worth, including pro painted ships.  tetsy sales have also slowed from what i can tell

4)  the number of used listings spiked after the wave 2 announcement.  Dozens of $500 to $1000 dollar collections went up immediately after the announcement.   on a related note new custom painted ships by pros are not being listed as frequently

I'll take your word for it, as I don't buy large collections, only small orders of 1-2 ships and never look at "pro painted" ships. From what I have seen, those merchants who do ship-only or small used lots have kept the price relatively neutral- though it did dip lower right after the 2.0 announcement.

39 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

so who knows?  past research on games like warhammer shows many old players quit but are replaced by new players when new editions launch. maybe thats whats happening

This will happen, as it always does. No change is universally loved and people will always complain/rage quit when something that is their hobby gets a new set of rules. I happen to feel that the changes so far seem to be decent and the conversion kits/app, while perhaps not the most fan-friendly way to go, are still a pretty good deal and should work fairly well. I guess we'll see how it goes...

Edited by Ikka

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