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Sole reason Solo flopped

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1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

Rey isn't just a Mry Sue.  She is the epitome of a Mary Sue.  She is the Mary Sue of Mary Sues.  She is Mary Sue's Final Form.

Literally the only thing she seemingly cannot do is close her freakish, alien jaws.

KapG42V.gif

You mean to say she is 'to go even further beyond'?

Sorry, couldn't help but do a DBZ reference. :P

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8 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

Its all good, I know a large number of us disagree with each other, I'd just hope that we can keep it civil. :)

That was one of the points I disliked too, that bit with Maz, they do the same thing with 3PO pointing out his arm too. Its like 'Spend more money and you might know whats going on!~' I just generally like more self contained stories, or at least ones that aren't expecting me to go out and read lots of ancillary material. 

So do I. It seems that civility as become a luxury from the past couple months (would I dare say 7...) and some people seems to have lost the ability to respect and understand that others might have a different opinion than them...

It's funny, having informations in other materials is something that I like about Star Wars (as long as it's not a big plot point). I think it allows them to tell their story without losing too much time explaining everything and then taking all the time they need to really go into the details. I think that ultimately it gives a lot more flavor to the movies and is a great way to go for world building. For exemple, I thought that the ship graveyard on Jakku was a nice setting, but now that I've read the Aftermath trilogy and knows how it came to be, I like it even more.

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49 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

So do I. It seems that civility as become a luxury from the past couple months (would I dare say 7...) and some people seems to have lost the ability to respect and understand that others might have a different opinion than them...

It's funny, having informations in other materials is something that I like about Star Wars (as long as it's not a big plot point). I think it allows them to tell their story without losing too much time explaining everything and then taking all the time they need to really go into the details. I think that ultimately it gives a lot more flavor to the movies and is a great way to go for world building. For exemple, I thought that the ship graveyard on Jakku was a nice setting, but now that I've read the Aftermath trilogy and knows how it came to be, I like it even more.

Oh yes, definitely, that is the kind of thing that seems perfect for exploration. Heck, I know there are tons of background characters with stories that have been given to them from TFA, like the red armored pirate guy that Finn was thinking about going off with. I think it was Crimson Corsair. And ESB springs to mind with Han's line about that run in with a bounty hunter on Ord Mantell. 

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17 hours ago, Sekac said:

Yep, those quotes do prove conclusively that I haven't accused anyone of being sexist. Thank you for taking the time. 

Mentioning that there are sexists is not the same as accusing someone of it. Perhaps someone could help explain that to you? 

giphy.gif

16 hours ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

True, because we aren’t trying to justify weirdly virulent hate for the OT. We never were.

There was no talk of Luke as a Mary Sue or inexplicably good for nearly forty years until all of you white knights needed to charge to the damsel in distress's rescue. So I guess maybe you're trying to claim some sort of moral high ground? You're only hating on Luke because of the hate on Rey or something? You're fighting the good fight against all those who would say Rey is more Mary Poppins than Leia when it just isn't true that Rey is a Mary Sue? 

I know things have changed in school but I haven't really seen any of the claims about Rey being a Mary Sue that wouldn't get passing grades in the various literature classes I've taken while all of the claims that Luke is a Mary Sue would get handed back with instructions to do it over. 

All of you who've enjoyed the cinematic travesties of TFA and TLJ, good for you. That's terrific. It is some minuscule comfort that all the effort (such as it was) that went into those was not entirely wasted. But your enjoyment does not make Rey any less of a Mary Sue. She is far and away more Mary Poppins than explosively decompressed Leia let back onto the ship without benefit of an airlock. If your only defense of Rey as not being a Mary Sue is to counter-claim that Luke is a Mary Sue, or to claim that fans who don't like Rey are toxic, you're standing on some very weak ground. 

You need to prove that Rey isn't a Mary Sue not that some other character in some other film is also a Mary Sue. 

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3 hours ago, Frimmel said:

If your only defense of Rey as not being a Mary Sue is to counter-claim that Luke is a Mary Sue, or to claim that fans who don't like Rey are toxic, you're standing on some very weak ground. 

You need to prove that Rey isn't a Mary Sue not that some other character in some other film is also a Mary Sue. 

Again, you're displaying that you fundamentally don't understand the conversation.

People aren't arguing that Rey isn't a Mary Sue, we're saying if she is, then so too is Luke.

So no, we don't have to prove Rey isn't a Mary Sue, we have to prove that Luke is as well. And I'm sorry, but your hypothetical teacher preffering your hypothetical essay over our hypothetical essay isn't an actual argument. It's you making **** up. 

As to your only salient point, it is odd that nobody called Luke a Mary Sue until now. Nobody called Anakin a Mary Sue either, despite him obviously being one and despite the character being nearly universally scorned. 

Do you have a theory as to what changed with Rey's character that now demand outraged fans to scream and whine about it for at least a year and a half (though I'm sure it will continue much longer)?

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50 minutes ago, Sekac said:

People aren't arguing that Rey isn't a Mary Sue, we're saying if she is, then so too is Luke.

So no, we don't have to prove Rey isn't a Mary Sue, we have to prove that Luke is as well.

Why do you want to win that point? If you prove that Luke is a Mary Sue as well i.e. Rey is a Mary Sue, what point have you made? What do you get from that? What do you prove by that? It doesn't actually forgive any of the sins of TFA and TLJ regarding Rey's character. Turning up a dozen Mary Sues in other films doesn't really forgive it in TFA and TLJ does it?

Is that the argument? It does forgive it? Rey as a Mary Sue is fine because there are other Mary Sues? If I like a movie with a Mary Sue I have to like TFA and TLJ? If I forgive a Mary Sue in one instance, I have to forgive all instances of a Mary Sue?

What's your argument? If I forgive Luke as a Mary Sue but don't forgive Rey as a Mary Sue, ___________________________?  

If I'm fundamentally not understanding the conversation it must be because I don't know what goes in the blank. If Luke is a Mary Sue just like Rey, what goes in the blank?

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36 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

What's your argument? If I forgive Luke as a Mary Sue but don't forgive Rey as a Mary Sue, then I have a clear double standard and continuing to complain about a character in a Disney movie is beyond ridiculous.   

Does that help?

Hypocrisy is generally considered a negative personality trait. 

But let me flip your question around. What do you hope to gain by continuing to complain about Rey 19 months after her first appearance on the big screen? Is it just to attempt ruin it for people that don't have a problem with the character? What is so offensive about an over the top character in a fantasy story that necessitates such a vitriolic and lengthy smear campaign? What grave injustice against your sensibilities are you trying to correct? 

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2 hours ago, Sekac said:

Again, you're displaying that you fundamentally don't understand the conversation.

People aren't arguing that Rey isn't a Mary Sue, we're saying if she is, then so too is Luke.

So no, we don't have to prove Rey isn't a Mary Sue, we have to prove that Luke is as well. And I'm sorry, but your hypothetical teacher preffering your hypothetical essay over our hypothetical essay isn't an actual argument. It's you making **** up. 

As to your only salient point, it is odd that nobody called Luke a Mary Sue until now. Nobody called Anakin a Mary Sue either, despite him obviously being one and despite the character being nearly universally scorned. 

Do you have a theory as to what changed with Rey's character that now demand outraged fans to scream and whine about it for at least a year and a half (though I'm sure it will continue much longer)?

The video I linked earlier I feel sourly shows that Luke isn't a Gary Stu. From what I've seen, Rey very much is, I can just only hope that like Anakin in episode 1 that with more content she will grow to not be one.

16 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Does that help?

Hypocrisy is generally considered a negative personality trait. 

But let me flip your question around. What do you hope to gain by continuing to complain about Rey 19 months after her first appearance on the big screen? Is it just to attempt ruin it for people that don't have a problem with the character? What is so offensive about an over the top character in a fantasy story that necessitates such a vitriolic and lengthy smear campaign? What grave injustice against your sensibilities are you trying to correct? 

I'd imagine some people really like to complain. For me personally, all I want is Rey to be written better. 

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3 hours ago, Sekac said:

What do you hope to gain by continuing to complain about Rey 19 months after her first appearance on the big screen?

Better movies. Rey is not an interesting character and the way she is presented bodes very ill for part three and any other films in this franchise. That a rather large part of the audience can't see the difference between Luke and Rey bodes ill for part three and any other films in this franchise and for lots of other movies given the tendency of Hollywood to product cinema written by focus group.

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

The video I linked earlier I feel sourly shows that Luke isn't a Gary Stu. From what I've seen, Rey very much is, I can just only hope that like Anakin in episode 1 that with more content she will grow to not be one.

I disagree. Some of those guy's are just straight up wrong. 

Luke's plan to rescue everyone from Jabba succeeded. There were 2 layers:

Plan A: negotiate successfully (he knew this was extremely unlikely to work). 

Plan B: hide his lightsaber inside R2-D2, gift the droids to jabba, have R2-D2 launch the saber to him at the opportune moment. 

Or does he think that R2-D2 just happen to have a spare lightsaber he's been stashing for 2 movies? 

And he conveniently ignores every single mistake and error Rey makes: 

- to escape TIE fighters, she chose a QUADJUMPER over the Millennium Falcon. Would you? Would anyone???

- when trying to close the bulkheads on Han's freighter she accidentally released the monsters which required Han's crazy lightspeed jump to survive. 

- at Mauz's place she decides to run into the jungle and is isolated and captured by Kylo after he defeats her with no contest (and later describes their second encounter as their first, oopsie ?).

And other details he just forgot to mention: 

-Rey and Kylo's second encounter, he'd been shot in the gut by a bowcaster (that had obliterated everyone else it hit), wounded in the arm by Finn, he'd just murdered his father, and his base was literally falling apart around him. He was having a really bad day before she ever touched the lightsaber. 

-She gets rescued twice on Starkiller base. Neither are mentioned. 

Also, it's pretty weak to compare 3 movies to 1. Did we really know who Luke's father was in ANH? There's 2 stories given: a lie by Owen, and the vague and confusing "truth"(from the point of view that considers willful deception the truth).

Essentially, the only difference between the characters is that Rey grew up in the "Mos Eisley" part of her planet, so she's a little more streetwise and capable. And I'm okay with that. 

Call me old fashioned, or a white knight I suppose, but I'd rather see Rey win, than watch 2 street thugs kick the **** out of a 22 year old girl. It's okay to let the ladies get a win now again, considering it's partially marketed to impressionable young girls. But I guess the maker of that video would rather use the fact that "she never suffered a severe injury" as a knock against her. 

Oh, but he did say it was a fair assessment at the end so I guess he's right. 

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2 hours ago, Sekac said:

I disagree. Some of those guy's are just straight up wrong. 

Luke's plan to rescue everyone from Jabba succeeded. There were 2 layers:

Plan A: negotiate successfully (he knew this was extremely unlikely to work). 

Plan B: hide his lightsaber inside R2-D2, gift the droids to jabba, have R2-D2 launch the saber to him at the opportune moment. 

Or does he think that R2-D2 just happen to have a spare lightsaber he's been stashing for 2 movies? 

And he conveniently ignores every single mistake and error Rey makes: 

- to escape TIE fighters, she chose a QUADJUMPER over the Millennium Falcon. Would you? Would anyone???

- when trying to close the bulkheads on Han's freighter she accidentally released the monsters which required Han's crazy lightspeed jump to survive. 

- at Mauz's place she decides to run into the jungle and is isolated and captured by Kylo after he defeats her with no contest (and later describes their second encounter as their first, oopsie ?).

And other details he just forgot to mention: 

-Rey and Kylo's second encounter, he'd been shot in the gut by a bowcaster (that had obliterated everyone else it hit), wounded in the arm by Finn, he'd just murdered his father, and his base was literally falling apart around him. He was having a really bad day before she ever touched the lightsaber. 

-She gets rescued twice on Starkiller base. Neither are mentioned. 

Also, it's pretty weak to compare 3 movies to 1. Did we really know who Luke's father was in ANH? There's 2 stories given: a lie by Owen, and the vague and confusing "truth"(from the point of view that considers willful deception the truth).

Essentially, the only difference between the characters is that Rey grew up in the "Mos Eisley" part of her planet, so she's a little more streetwise and capable. And I'm okay with that. 

Call me old fashioned, or a white knight I suppose, but I'd rather see Rey win, than watch 2 street thugs kick the **** out of a 22 year old girl. It's okay to let the ladies get a win now again, considering it's partially marketed to impressionable young girls. But I guess the maker of that video would rather use the fact that "she never suffered a severe injury" as a knock against her. 

Oh, but he did say it was a fair assessment at the end so I guess he's right. 

I will agree that he misrepresented Luke's plan for Jabba, though a fair bit still held up I felt. Just because someone is wrong with one or two points doesn't make them completely wrong on everything.

- I wouldn't consider the quadjumper much of a mistake when it lasted all of half a second before they ran towards the falcon

- I guess, though it didn't really lead to her having much of an issue and got them out of the situation

- Possibly, though it makes me question why no one uses the force sleep power more often.

Kylo was weakened during that encounter, and it seemed he was winning until he reminded her that the force was a thing after which she promptly won. Not really making a point here, always just something that I found funny/silly. Kylo: "I can teach you how to use the force!" Rey: "Oh Yea, I can use that!"

Did she get rescued on Starkiller Base? I got the distinct feeling she was having no issue escaping and would have gotten away without any issue. As for two, I can only barely think of one when she runs into Finn, Han and Chewie. What was that second one? Is it where Finn picks up the lightsaber? Sincerely asking here. 

And that is a fair point. He made the video before TLJ and in response to the 'Luke is a mary sue' response at the time. Maybe after 9 the matter will die down, I personally would enjoy that. 

Eh, not really. Luke grey up with Owen and Beru as his surrogate parents, he had friends, and worked on a farm and spent his free time learning to fly, get survival skills, and do repair work. Luke is a farmboy who dreams of being something more. And arguably is a whiny one at that, 'Toshi station line'. Rey conversely grew up in a desert with Unkar likely just making sure she didn't die, she learned to take care of herself and work as a scavenger/scrapper. Honestly, in that scenario I'd imagine she'd be more jaded and looking out for herself since everyone would there would gladly take what was hers to give themselves a better chance at survival. Again, something that I'd find more interesting but likely wouldn't jell as well with general audiences hence we get the honest, naive, and hopeful girl. If any Star Wars protagonist is streetwise I'd say it would likely be Anakin or Ezra.

I'm not going to call you anything. You have your opinion, I have mine. I don't WANT to see 2 street thugs beat her up, but I'd rather see her more work together with Finn and Poe more with them teaming up, watching each other's back, and saving eachother the same way we saw with Luke, Han, and Leia. Its fine letting her get her wins, she is the protagonist afterall but Star Wars has been quite liberal with the whole physical manifestations of loss and failure aka Luke's hand and Anakin's well most of him. 

 

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4 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

Did she get rescued on Starkiller Base? I got the distinct feeling she was having no issue escaping and would have gotten away without any issue. As for two, I can only barely think of one when she runs into Finn, Han and Chewie. What was that second one? Is it where Finn picks up the lightsaber? Sincerely asking here. 

She was hiding in drawers and wandering hallways until they showed up. Hiding in drawers is a good plan for evading capture, but bad for escaping planets. 

The second was minutes before the base blew. She realized,  "oh, I'm completely ******." Then the Falcon showed up and she got bailed out for the second time. 

Frankly, the maker of that video clearly had an agenda and wasn't even attempting to state a case from a place of intellectual honesty. He absolutely refused to acknowledge anything contrary to his stance.

I'm cool with a point/counter point dynamic as we've been doing here but that video was bad, despite his British accident.

*edit* oh, also no, he didn't make that video before TLJ, because he included footage from it. He just didn't acknowledge any of her flaws from it because they were inconvenient. Let's not forget that the main complaint with TFA Rey is that she's too flawless and the main complaint with all of the characters on TLJ is they're too flawful.

The problem isn't the movies. The problem is Star Wars fanbois are bad for Star Wars. 

Edited by Sekac

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5 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

I wouldn't consider the quadjumper much of a mistake when it lasted all of half a second before they ran towards the falcon

So she's a Mary Sue because she chose door #2 after door #1 was exploded? I mean they could've had her climb into the flaming wreckage regardless and immediately die, but I guess they preferred to write a character who chose the only other option available. 

5 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

Just because someone is wrong with one or two points doesn't make them completely wrong on everything.

I listed 10 points that he (and his crew all collectively) failed to address. I'm sure I could come up with more. But we can round 10 down to 1-2 if you prefer. 

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1 hour ago, Sekac said:

Star Wars fanbois are bad for Star Wars. 

  Whats bad for SW is the people in charge handling the series like they have.  Diseny Wars fans have be bad for the series as have Antifa infiltrators as they personally attack anyone that doesn't see eye to eye with them.  LFL, even before the backlash, had been attacking the fanbase personally, **** they don't even do a good job managing the lore.  To add insult to injury Riddley Scott has pointed out that "NONE" of the people hired to to write or direct the new SW movies were qualified to do so, and he is past his prime.

20 minutes ago, Sekac said:

So she's a Mary Sue because she chose door #2 after door #1 was exploded? I mean they could've had her climb into the flaming wreckage regardless and immediately die, but I guess they preferred to write a character who chose the only other option available. 

I listed 10 points that he (and his crew all collectively) failed to address. I'm sure I could come up with more. But we can round 10 down to 1-2 if you prefer. 

  Actually it is the simple, picking door a over b.  Even if she isn't a Mary Sue, she comes off as obnoxious, because of how she talks, along with abrasive, cheerless, and uninteresting.  We already know all her skill are handed to her because she is Anakin Skywalker, there hints were to open and simple not to catch that that was who she is.  They will probably make her Revan as well.  She comes off as a lightly obnoxious know it all with a chip on her shoulder.

 

  Lastly and least important, she looks like MODOK!!! Shes weird looking!!!

https://goo.gl/images/4x7PGE

  

 

https://goo.gl/images/ESHdcZ

 

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9 hours ago, Sekac said:

She was hiding in drawers and wandering hallways until they showed up. Hiding in drawers is a good plan for evading capture, but bad for escaping planets. 

Eh, I think with how she was doing she could have easily gotten to a FO ship and escaped had she not run into the others. Give her a cardboard box and she could have Solid Snaked her way out of there. Heck, it mostly worked for BB-8 in TLJ...okay, now I do sort of want to see that though. Daisy Ridely hiding under a box and infiltrating a FO base with no one noticing anything. 

9 hours ago, Sekac said:

The second was minutes before the base blew. She realized,  "oh, I'm completely ******." Then the Falcon showed up and she got bailed out for the second time. 

Fine.

9 hours ago, Sekac said:

*edit* oh, also no, he didn't make that video before TLJ, because he included footage from it. He just didn't acknowledge any of her flaws from it because they were inconvenient. Let's not forget that the main complaint with TFA Rey is that she's too flawless and the main complaint with all of the characters on TLJ is they're too flawful.

Only trailer shots are used, I think his original video was taken down so he had to reupload it. Still, I might be mistaken on that and if so, then yes, it is dishonest or at least reduces his critical review of Rey as a whole instead of just looking at TFA. 

9 hours ago, Sekac said:

The problem isn't the movies. The problem is Star Wars fanbois are bad for Star Wars. 

Oh, the movies have their problems. I don't think it is fair to say that the fan boys are ruining it, yes I will admit that there are those being jerks and ***** but I wouldn't say that Star Wars fans as a whole are the worst thing for the franchise. Without those fans you don't have the collectors who keep the toys afloat, and without them you don't get SW Celebration or the like. From a business perspective they are the people you want to keep happy or engaged so that they will keep buying your product and going to see the film numerous times at the theater. 

I think a perfect example of seeing an issue in TLJ for example is the intro of the film. Within the first few minutes Poe defangs Hux and the FO as a whole as intimidating villains for us the audience which reduces our stakes in the film all for the sake of a joke. Contrast this with say Infinity War and how it introduces Thanos to us in the opening sequence. 

8 hours ago, Sekac said:

So she's a Mary Sue because she chose door #2 after door #1 was exploded? I mean they could've had her climb into the flaming wreckage regardless and immediately die, but I guess they preferred to write a character who chose the only other option available. 

No, I meant that it really wasn't much of a failure on her part that would prove she isn't a Mary Sue.

Edited by Animewarsdude

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How did Rey learn to swim growing up on a desert planet?

 

It is not just the big things it is the little as well. When did she have the time to learn Wookiee? Call it Mary Sue or not. It does not lead to a good character. 

Any single thing or even a few things like this is forgivable. But when it is nearly every single skill that matters in the story being presented, it is groan worthy.

Not needing saving is also something that needs to be addressed. Rey never needs any help. In this regard Luke needs vastly more saving in ANH and Empire, until finally he is the one doing the saving in the Return of the Jedi. Vs Rey, who does the majority of the saving of others in her two films.

After Force Awakens I wanted to like Rey. I like Daisy Ridley’s acting. It was just too much after TLJ.

In TFA, 2 things could have made her immensely better. Finn piloting the Falcon, and Rey losing the saber fight at the end. (Still being separated by Starkiller quake.) That, and they needed to make Starkiller base a major plot point from the start, it just kinda randomly pops in at the 3rd Act.

Edited by Jadotch

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35 minutes ago, Jadotch said:

In TFA, 2 things could have made her immensely better. Finn piloting the Falcon, 

Finn specifically said earlier that he don't know how to pilot, that's the reason why he needs Poe in the first place to escape the First Order. Making Finn pilot the Falcon would have been a major scenario flaw.

My personnal nitpick with Rey is with her perfectly understanding the Wookie and BB8... this I really can't explain... unless she listened to audio tape to learn the multiple language of the galaxy to help her fall asleep... :P Other than that, I really don't care. Even her knowing how to swim, I never gave it much attention until this thread and can put it in the honest realisation mistake that we tend to take for granted that it's such a common skill that everybody know how to swim... and it would have been really awkward if we would have seen Rey drowned in the middle of the movie...

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16 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

Finn specifically said earlier that he don't know how to pilot, that's the reason why he needs Poe in the first place to escape the First Order. Making Finn pilot the Falcon would have been a major scenario flaw.

Got to agree with you there, just wish LFL/Rian Johnson remembered that so that Finn wasn't the one piloting the Resistance Transport Pod in TLJ.

17 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

My personnal nitpick with Rey is with her perfectly understanding the Wookie and BB8... this I really can't explain... unless she listened to audio tape to learn the multiple language of the galaxy to help her fall asleep... :P Other than that, I really don't care. Even her knowing how to swim, I never gave it much attention until this thread and can put it in the honest realisation mistake that we tend to take for granted that it's such a common skill that everybody know how to swim... and it would have been really awkward if we would have seen Rey drowned in the middle of the movie...

Little did we know that her pilot simulator was only in wookie and droid speak the entire time! :P My issue with her knowing it is that she explains what Chewie is saying to Luke who should already know what Chewie is saying...but you know having to translate for the audience. Granted, it just meant that Rian Johnson needed to actually write something out to convey that idea while showing Luke understood wookie in the first place.

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18 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

Got to agree with you there, just wish LFL/Rian Johnson remembered that so that Finn wasn't the one piloting the Resistance Transport Pod in TLJ.

Ahaha! I know you won't like my answer but in the book it's actually explained that Rose teached Finn how to pilot during their trip to Canto Bight.

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32 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

Ahaha! I know you won't like my answer but in the book it's actually explained that Rose teached Finn how to pilot during their trip to Canto Bight.

And you'd be right, it reeks of the author having to explain away stuff that the writer/director brought up. I guess that is to help explain why they landed on a beach that led to more issues during that bit too. 

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On 7/5/2018 at 12:40 PM, FTS Gecko said:

Literally the only thing she seemingly cannot do is close her freakish, alien jaws.

KapG42V.gif

 

16 hours ago, Black Knight Leader said:

Lastly and least important, she looks like MODOK!!! Shes weird looking!!!

https://goo.gl/images/4x7PGE

  

 

https://goo.gl/images/ESHdcZ

Why are you guys being so rude?

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3 hours ago, AwesomeJedi said:

 

Why are you guys being so rude?

  It's the truth.  If she and I were the last humans alive, and it was up to us to reproduce...

  I would purposely do this to my sex organs...

then shoot them into a star.   I then would destroy all tech and information about using skin cells or only eggs to reproduce, I also would destroy all hyper pregnancy drugs and anything used for artificial insemination.   

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