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Smoothjedi

Influence: How obvious is it?

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So I have done some searching, and although I've seen a lot of topics about Influence and how it works, one aspect I've wondered about is how obvious it is, specifically the basic power causing strain damage.

With the new Unlimited Power release, I'm excited about the new signature ability unlimited destiny, and I am going to respec my character (540 earned xp) to take advantage of the new content. I'm leaning towards Mystic: Seer + Sage, and lean heavily into the influence power. I have already been using influence throughout my career as a Mystic:Advisor as the party face and Hunter for combat (blaster specialization), but I think it would be more fun to strain everyone down with 5 FR and lots of rerolls (Mystic Sig ability + Nat Mystic).

I've always avoided powers such as Move, etc. because they are quite obvious something is amiss; I prefer subtle uses, such as helping aim my blaster, or other skill enhancing uses. How would influence fit into this? Could I non threateningly pretend to cower behind some boxes or something in a firefight, while blasting everyone's strain with magnitude + range + strength upgrades? Could I be in a crowded bar enjoying a drink specifically targeting the bartender until he passes out unexpectedly as a distraction? How obvious is the use of this power?

Thanks!

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With the idea of inflicting strain on an enemy, I think it is more the idea that they are in combat having nervous break downs due to you influencing their mind. Thus causing the mental strain. Your bar tender idea is a little harder narrative wise but it could be as simple as making the bar tender think he is more tired from working than he really is, thus causing him to pass out. 

Influence doesn't necessarily mean you are waving your hands around all over the place. 

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I have also wondered how have other forumgoers played influences control that allows you to make people feel/think something that isnt true when it comes to its duration? Do the targets realise they have been bamboozled after the 1 round/5 minute time or do they most of the time pass on a la the movies? After all if the stormtrooper sergeant realised that something was done to their mind/perception they might have gone after Obi and Luke ?

Maybe minions dont realise it but nemesis npcs do, as a general rule?

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19 minutes ago, Asoral said:

I have also wondered how have other forumgoers played influences control that allows you to make people feel/think something that isnt true when it comes to its duration? Do the targets realise they have been bamboozled after the 1 round/5 minute time or do they most of the time pass on a la the movies? After all if the stormtrooper sergeant realised that something was done to their mind/perception they might have gone after Obi and Luke ?

Maybe minions dont realise it but nemesis npcs do, as a general rule?

The way I do it is that it depends!

The roll to activate the Mind Trick determines how noticeable the effect is, both to the controlled person, as well as others they interact with.  A general Success means the Mind Trick works, but if the action or emotion pushed on the target is very out of place, both others in the area who see them acting oddly will notice, and they'll realize they weren't themselves afterwards.

However, if on a basic success you Mind Trick them into doing something they wanted to do, or something within keeping with their character, then others won't see their actions as strange, and they (probably) won't question why they did those things after the trick wears off.  This is why the Stormtroopers didn't hunt down Luke and Obi-Wan after the whole "droids" incident.  They didn't really care about the droid hunt and wanted to slack off, so they just went with the suggestion.

If you succeed with Advantage, the Advantage can be spent to make the effect less obvious to observers and the target, or to ensure that, with very out-of-character actions, the target doesn't question why they acted as they did unless forced to confront it (such as being interrogated by their superiors).

Success with Threat, though, means that the target can subconsciously sense that they're being influenced, and may interpret the Mind Trick in ways that are counter to what the Force-user intended.  Alternatively, Threat can be spent to mean that the target instantly realizes they were tricked when the effect wears off, or that their actions are stiff and robotic, alerting observers that they are acting oddly.

Triumph can allow the target to rationalize the Mind Trick as their own action, or to forget the Force-user afterwards.  Despair... I haven't come up with a good one for Despair yet.  But I'm working on it!

 

As for the inflicting strain aspect of the OP... I'd say that you probably have to focus on the target, and be able to sense them in some way.  Perceptive individuals could probably notice that you're focusing on them when you use the power, if they have reason to pay attention to you.  And if you inflict strain damage on a target, then they're aware of it.  They may not realize why they're taking strain damage ("Ugh... Sorry, just got really woozy there for a second..."  "Oof.  Why am I so out of it right now?")  So your bartender situation could work, although unless you knock him out in one go, people are probably going to notice him getting more and more out of it as the night progresses.  He, at the very least, will realize his mental faculties are degrading faster than his level of exertion should indicate.

That's my take on it, at least :) .

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Even so, what if you knocked him out in one go? Would everyone nearby assume a force user is afoot, or would they attribute it to something else? In stark contrast, if I picked up bottle of Lothalian currant wine from behind the bar with Move and smashed it into his head, everyone immediately would know that was the case. 

Another example if there are say two stormtroopers outside the bar by their speeders on a busy street. If someone picked up a speeder with Move and smashed it in to one of them, you can bet the first thing the other does is call his superiors to let someone know they've got a target. If instead you knocked out all their strain with Influence in one shot, what would he do? I can't imagine his first reaction would be the same as the Move scenarios.

As far as despair goes, that's fine for a contested check, but what if the stormtroopers or bartender are considered minions? The only thing that happens there is you roll your force dice. There's not even a chance for a despair or advantage to even appear.

As far as I can tell this isn't like the movie Dark City where a big colorful cone of force appears out of your head when you use it. On top of that, there could be all kinds of people suspiciously eying a couple stormtroopers; how would they even know where it was coming from?

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41 minutes ago, Smoothjedi said:

Even so, what if you knocked him out in one go? Would everyone nearby assume a force user is afoot, or would they attribute it to something else? In stark contrast, if I picked up bottle of Lothalian currant wine from behind the bar with Move and smashed it into his head, everyone immediately would know that was the case. 

Another example if there are say two stormtroopers outside the bar by their speeders on a busy street. If someone picked up a speeder with Move and smashed it in to one of them, you can bet the first thing the other does is call his superiors to let someone know they've got a target. If instead you knocked out all their strain with Influence in one shot, what would he do? I can't imagine his first reaction would be the same as the Move scenarios.

As far as despair goes, that's fine for a contested check, but what if the stormtroopers or bartender are considered minions? The only thing that happens there is you roll your force dice. There's not even a chance for a despair or advantage to even appear.

As far as I can tell this isn't like the movie Dark City where a big colorful cone of force appears out of your head when you use it. On top of that, there could be all kinds of people suspiciously eying a couple stormtroopers; how would they even know where it was coming from?

So, when inflicting strain, I would say there is no obvious reason to expect Force use, unless someone notices that your character stares really hard at the bartender/Stormtrooper/whomever and then they fainted.  In  a crowd, especially if you're across the room, it would be very difficult for anyone to connect you to the incident, or be able to determine why the target passed out, without an in-depth medical exam.

If you're the only one around, though, your dire attention right before they pass out will be much easier to notice, and if you're engaged with the bartender (at the bar and right in front of him), it'll be easier to notice, as well, just because you're right there, where the action is happening.

And for my explanation of how to spend symbols, that was specifically responding to @Asoral and their question regarding the Mind Trick control upgrade, which always requires an opposed Discipline vs. Discipline check, so even against minions there would be possible symbols to spend.

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Cant remember which of the more social career focused books it was in, they talked how running out of strain doesnt always mean going unconscious, especially in social situations. It could mean angrily chewing on your cigar and harrumphing at everything and unable to participate meaningfully further or getting too frustrated to keep on talking and leaving. In the stormtrooper situation I would personally narrate running out of strain instead with getting a splitting headache/migraine or otherwise zoning out so badly that they are unable to really even tell what is going on around them. Maybe even complaining to their patrol partner that there isnt anything going on the street and it seems that there are a lot of shady characters going to that nearby cafe, maybe we should investigate and grab a cup of refreshment?

Those seem much better ways of handling the situation, in mot cases, than the troopers simply slumbing down unconscious ? But of course if the influencer is a dark side user or used dark side pips I would have them just slump down all ragdolly ?

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Ah yes, I completely forgot it was always an opposed roll. Havent actually had anyone use the Mind Trick part in my games and havent had a chance to use it yet with my Magus. That makes the answer obvious, its in the dice!

I blame insomnia and the midnight sun and constant brightness outside ?

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1 hour ago, Absol197 said:

So, when inflicting strain, I would say there is no obvious reason to expect Force use, unless someone notices that your character stares really hard at the bartender/Stormtrooper/whomever and then they fainted.  In  a crowd, especially if you're across the room, it would be very difficult for anyone to connect you to the incident, or be able to determine why the target passed out, without an in-depth medical exam.

If you're the only one around, though, your dire attention right before they pass out will be much easier to notice, and if you're engaged with the bartender (at the bar and right in front of him), it'll be easier to notice, as well, just because you're right there, where the action is happening.

And for my explanation of how to spend symbols, that was specifically responding to @Asoral and their question regarding the Mind Trick control upgrade, which always requires an opposed Discipline vs. Discipline check, so even against minions there would be possible symbols to spend.

With enough practice doing this, say through a discipline check or maybe deception or something, perhaps it's even possible to activate the power without giving anyone the evil eye, so to speak.

Well I think everyone has mostly answered my question. It like I'm on the right track going with Influence as party face and relying on it for subtle attacks with the Force. Since the way the XP lays out I won't be able to afford much more than that, I'll just have to hope our combat encounters with droids are minimal!

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One of the things I like to do is pay reference to other talents , there is a talent that allows you to have your force use to go unnoticed, for that reason, I would play that most of the time it's obvious with one of the logical exceptions being mind trick, even then if you want a canon example of it going wrong look at Qui Go n in the Phantom Menace, who Way to makes the comment on noticing his hand wave.

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Strain 0 doesn't mean exactly that the bartender falls unconscious. As a narrative game as it is, you can narrate this from a diferent point of view. Perhaps he has a big headache and asks the boss to take a break; or he goes to the bathroom to recompose himself because that conversation with you has revolted him; or simply he dessist to resist your interrogation attemps and gives you the information you want, his mental defenses down, and later he asks himself why he has answered your questions.

Genesys give this idea of using strain as a measure of your social "hit points" in the Social Combat section (or something called similar, don't remember right now).

But also remember this: hutts and toydarians are inmune to this kind of force powers, so invest in social skills. Also, the GM can think your idea of causing strain is so good he is gona use this, too, so invest in powers that protect you from other force users.

Enjoy your game! :)

 

Edited by hikari_dourden

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On 6/21/2018 at 8:16 AM, hikari_dourden said:

Strain 0 doesn't mean exactly that the bartender falls unconscious. As a narrative game as it is, you can narrate this from a diferent point of view. Perhaps he has a big headache and asks the boss to take a break; or he goes to the bathroom to recompose himself because that conversation with you has revolted him; or simply he dessist to resist your interrogation attemps and gives you the information you want, his mental defenses down, and later he asks himself why he has answered your questions.

Genesys give this idea of using strain as a measure of your social "hit points" in the Social Combat section (or something called similar, don't remember right now).

But also remember this: hutts and toydarians are inmune to this kind of force powers, so invest in social skills. Also, the GM can think your idea of causing strain is so good he is gona use this, too, so invest in powers that protect you from other force users.

Enjoy your game! :)

 

Toydarian Pcs aren't strangely (the immunity -resistance is covered in a module book, so canonically correct Wattos comments about mind tricks is , is questionable , after all it's rare one meets a Jedi, even Wattos himself is rather mercenary in comparison to other canonical references to toydarian, who seem much more honourable than him.

So in essence you are letting one comment from a unreliable character in a film, who is as far from being a typical example of his race, become hard fact.

For reference see the Clone Wars episodes where Yoda has to negotiate with the Toydarian king or where they have to negotiate with them to use the planet as a staging post for relief for Ryloth.

Edit just to clarify Im not wanting to argue , just that the module seems to differ from the PC stats from Enter the Unknown which don't mention the immunity/resistance. You could just as easily argue that Wattos was just very strong minded, and was just putting out a throwaway comment, after all how many Jedi has he met and how many Toydarian does he know that have had a mind tricks attempted on them.

Edited by syrath

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When I use the make them believe a lie upgrade I assume that as soon as it's over they're fully aware that they've just been tricked/influenced.  I think this one should be more obvious to bystanders.  Eg. despite wearing rebel uniforms you influence the stormtroopers to make them believe that you are just an imperial maintenance team.  If you only get enough pips to influence one of the two groups the other would instantly know something is up.

When I use the skill boosting upgrade, it doesn't wear off because it was just the force enhancing the skill check, not overwriting their thoughts/beliefs.  This one I look at as much more subtle because you are using it in conjunction with skills.  So for me the use of the force is near impossible to detect for those not familiar with it.

 

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I think it depends on how you want to play it.  As well as the awareness of the person seeing it.  For example, when I first watched Phantom Menace, I only noticed Qui-Gon using Influence one of the 2 times he did it, with Watto.   It only dawned on me after a second viewing that he was doing the same thing to the king of the Gunguns.  Liam Neeson's body language was way more relaxed and natural, with his hand gestures in that scene, that I just didn't even notice it, even while looking right at him.   

Though I think one thing to consider, if you are playing in Rebellion era, is that very few people are probably even aware of what Jedi can do, or that they even exist.  Remember Luke is supposed to be Joe Average for a person growing up in the Empire, and he knew nothing of the Force, or the Jedi.  So most people probably wouldn't expect someone to have magic powers to sway the minds of those around them, and wouldn't think anything of the hand gestures and what not.   They would just assume the person is likely being expressive and flamboyant with their body language while talking to someone.   I would probably just leave it to cases where there is an opposed roll, and some negative results come up, either Despair, or Threat of sufficient amount, to make people suspicious of the act.  Otherwise, I wouldn't worry about it and move on.

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4 hours ago, Ahrimon said:

When I use the make them believe a lie upgrade I assume that as soon as it's over they're fully aware that they've just been tricked/influenced.  I think this one should be more obvious to bystanders.  Eg. despite wearing rebel uniforms you influence the stormtroopers to make them believe that you are just an imperial maintenance team.  If you only get enough pips to influence one of the two groups the other would instantly know something is up.

When I use the skill boosting upgrade, it doesn't wear off because it was just the force enhancing the skill check, not overwriting their thoughts/beliefs.  This one I look at as much more subtle because you are using it in conjunction with skills.  So for me the use of the force is near impossible to detect for those not familiar with it.

 

 

8 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

I think it depends on how you want to play it.  As well as the awareness of the person seeing it.  For example, when I first watched Phantom Menace, I only noticed Qui-Gon using Influence one of the 2 times he did it, with Watto.   It only dawned on me after a second viewing that he was doing the same thing to the king of the Gunguns.  Liam Neeson's body language was way more relaxed and natural, with his hand gestures in that scene, that I just didn't even notice it, even while looking right at him.   

Though I think one thing to consider, if you are playing in Rebellion era, is that very few people are probably even aware of what Jedi can do, or that they even exist.  Remember Luke is supposed to be Joe Average for a person growing up in the Empire, and he knew nothing of the Force, or the Jedi.  So most people probably wouldn't expect someone to have magic powers to sway the minds of those around them, and wouldn't think anything of the hand gestures and what not.   They would just assume the person is likely being expressive and flamboyant with their body language while talking to someone.   I would probably just leave it to cases where there is an opposed roll, and some negative results come up, either Despair, or Threat of sufficient amount, to make people suspicious of the act.  Otherwise, I wouldn't worry about it and move on.

It should also be noted that the "upgrade" Qui-Gon used on Boss Nass was the Social checks upgrade, not the Emotion upgrade, but you can still see a distinct change in Boss Nass' composure. I could definitely tell he was under a "spell", so to speak. 

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46 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

 

It should also be noted that the "upgrade" Qui-Gon used on Boss Nass was the Social checks upgrade, not the Emotion upgrade, but you can still see a distinct change in Boss Nass' composure. I could definitely tell he was under a "spell", so to speak. 

Sure you noticed it, but I didn't, and that's kind of the point of this thread.  How obvious is spotting that kind of Influence.  Which basically boils down to "depends on the person noticing it" really.  When I first watched it, I didn't think Boss was Influenced, I thought he was just playing along with the Jedi, giving them what they wanted, but in a way that would likely get them killed.  Every response of his was heavily laden with tones of "oh sure buddy, I'll give you just want you want....you want a ship...suuuuure, I'll give you a ship...hehehehe"  I mean he even cackles at them as he says it.  So my first thought wasn't mind whammy, it was "these people annoy me, but it would be bad PR if I just killed them.  So I'll give them what they want, and give it to them in a way that will likely get them killed, but it won't be my fault, or my problem anymore.  Win win!"  Only after 2nd viewing did I really spot Qui-Gon's gestures, and Boss' response similarity.   So for the purposes of the OT question, it's not all that obvious, unless you:
1. Know that mind whammies exist (highly unlikely given the setting)

2. Are actively watching for them.

3. Happen to be alert enough at that moment to spot minor details that you might miss if you are focusing on other things.

 

Edited by KungFuFerret

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12 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Sure you noticed it, but I didn't, and that's kind of the point of this thread.  How obvious is spotting that kind of Influence.  Which basically boils down to "depends on the person noticing it" really.  When I first watched it, I didn't think Boss was Influenced, I thought he was just playing along with the Jedi, giving them what they wanted, but in a way that would likely get them killed.  Every response of his was heavily laden with tones of "oh sure buddy, I'll give you just want you want....you want a ship...suuuuure, I'll give you a ship...hehehehe"  I mean he even cackles at them as he says it.  So my first thought wasn't mind whammy, it was "these people annoy me, but it would be bad PR if I just killed them.  So I'll give them what they want, and give it to them in a way that will likely get them killed, but it won't be my fault, or my problem anymore.  Win win!"  Only after 2nd viewing did I really spot Qui-Gon's gestures, and Boss' response similarity.   So for the purposes of the OT question, it's not all that obvious, unless you:
1. Know that mind whammies exist (highly unlikely given the setting)

2. Are actively watching for them.

3. Happen to be alert enough at that moment to spot minor details that you might miss if you are focusing on other things.

 

I agree 100%. I was also talking about how the Social Checks upgrade still affects the targets' minds, and that, even if subtle, there is a definite "mind altering" effect, if you know what to look for.

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On ‎6‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 4:56 PM, Smoothjedi said:

Even so, what if you knocked him out in one go? 

Maybe it's just me, but it seems strain is a good measure of will as much as physical fatigue. If you used Scathing Tirade against a trooper or something, especially in a social encounter, and ST/WTed him, you wouldn't insult him so hard he passes out, but you might insult him so hard that he's just done. He's given up and just does whatever it takes to get you to go away.

Mind trick would be similar. While you certainly COULD strain his brain so bad he passes out, you could also just Strain him so hard that he doesn't want to argue and whatever you're asking (especially if more or less legal and not against his orders in any serious way) he'll give you because he's just not in a frame of mind to fight you. 

 

I mean think about it:

*Politico pulls up to Imperial Check point*

Trooper: I'll need to see some ID.

Politico: *Scathing Tirade* ID? ID?!? Do you know who I am? I'm Lord Galifar Koban the XXII! Supreme ruler of the Lor consortium, CEO of Gololo Enterprises and Commander of the Defensive Fleet of the Barkel Sector! And you ASK ME for ID?!?!? I'll have you know that I'm on my to see Lord Varder Personally, and now I'm being held up by... what's your operating Number? Doesn't matter I'll just report your whole platoon. You and your plastic coated, incompetent, slovenly excuses for Imperial stormtroopers have disrupted my official business for the last time. Why look at you your armor is covered in sand! You look like a dirty desert bantha, and smell like...

Trooper: Alright alright! Let him through it's ok!

 

*Jedi pulls up to Imperial Check point*

Trooper: I'll need to see some ID.

Jedi: Yes yes, just a moment, I'll get it right out for you sir. *waves hand*  Are you Ok there trooper? You look tired. 

Trooper: Yeah... I'm tired...

Jedi: I know it's in here somewhere. Are you sure you need it? I mean look at me I'm no one. Clearly unarmed. And you're sooo tired. It's beena long day hasn't it.

Trooper: Yeah... so long.... so tired.....

Jedi: Why don't you just wave me through, I'll behave and you and your men can take a 5 minute break. There's no speeders behind mine, so what's the harm?

Trooper: Yes, that's it for a while. 5 minute break everyone... You can move along...

 

 

 

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Ahrimon said:

When I use the make them believe a lie upgrade I assume that as soon as it's over they're fully aware that they've just been tricked/influenced.  I think this one should be more obvious to bystanders.  Eg. despite wearing rebel uniforms you influence the stormtroopers to make them believe that you are just an imperial maintenance team.  If you only get enough pips to influence one of the two groups the other would instantly know something is up.

When I use the skill boosting upgrade, it doesn't wear off because it was just the force enhancing the skill check, not overwriting their thoughts/beliefs.  This one I look at as much more subtle because you are using it in conjunction with skills.  So for me the use of the force is near impossible to detect for those not familiar with it.

 

5 minutes is what the devs say the make them believe lasts for. And that they may be awate of it after that. Hownthey react to knowimg on the othernhand is up in the air. They might choose not to speak up because it would get them in trouble.

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4 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

5 minutes is what the devs say the make them believe lasts for. And that they may be awate of it after that. Hownthey react to knowimg on the othernhand is up in the air. They might choose not to speak up because it would get them in trouble.

Since a mind trick uses an opposed Discipline check, my guess is the dice would do a good job of determining what happened. Maybe a net success with a despair attached would make them immediately realize they've been had, by a force user no less. A triumph could be they never think about it again, believing it was their own decision. Different results could be anything in between. Point being, there is wiggle room in there based on dice results and I think letting them do their work in that regard is fair, even encouraged. 

On 6/20/2018 at 9:20 PM, syrath said:

One of the things I like to do is pay reference to other talents , there is a talent that allows you to have your force use to go unnoticed, for that reason, I would play that most of the time it's obvious with one of the logical exceptions being mind trick, even then if you want a canon example of it going wrong look at Qui Go n in the Phantom Menace, who Way to makes the comment on noticing his hand wave.

I do think this is a great point, however after reading through that talent (Shroud, I'm assuming) it seems a little more geared towards hiding from another force user. Using a variation of the example that got listed above, maybe the Gungan king had been deceived previously by a different force user, so he now has a guy in his court using Sense to ensure it's not repeated. Qui-Gon struts in, activates shroud, and the detector isn't any the wiser his king is being influenced, or potentially attacked.

That being said, Shroud does say that some powers are just too obvious to obfuscate, specifically like picking up an X-Wing with one's mind. So, the talent still leaves my initial question unanswered: Where does using influence lie between the extremes of picking up an X-Wing and being indiscernible to someone not specifically looking for it, especially when the basic power is activated with no other dice for guidance?

As a side note, thanks to everyone for posting! This thread has been a great read so far!

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2 hours ago, Smoothjedi said:

Since a mind trick uses an opposed Discipline check, my guess is the dice would do a good job of determining what happened. Maybe a net success with a despair attached would make them immediately realize they've been had, by a force user no less. A triumph could be they never think about it again, believing it was their own decision. Different results could be anything in between. Point being, there is wiggle room in there based on dice results and I think letting them do their work in that regard is fair, even encouraged. 

I do think this is a great point, however after reading through that talent (Shroud, I'm assuming) it seems a little more geared towards hiding from another force user. Using a variation of the example that got listed above, maybe the Gungan king had been deceived previously by a different force user, so he now has a guy in his court using Sense to ensure it's not repeated. Qui-Gon struts in, activates shroud, and the detector isn't any the wiser his king is being influenced, or potentially attacked.

That being said, Shroud does say that some powers are just too obvious to obfuscate, specifically like picking up an X-Wing with one's mind. So, the talent still leaves my initial question unanswered: Where does using influence lie between the extremes of picking up an X-Wing and being indiscernible to someone not specifically looking for it, especially when the basic power is activated with no other dice for guidance?

As a side note, thanks to everyone for posting! This thread has been a great read so far!

I'd say that the basic power would be obvious the one that makes sense to be more subtle is the mind trick, to me anything that was an attack with the force involved some sort of gesture that made it obvious what was going on, in the cinema this was obviously a visual clue that the person gesturing was the source of what just happened. Example any jedi pointing their palm at a load of droids,, said droids then fall over, it was obvious who done it. Then you had the less obvious "shroud" move where they do a more subtle gesture trying to not be seen.

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2 hours ago, Smoothjedi said:

Since a mind trick uses an opposed Discipline check, my guess is the dice would do a good job of determining what happened. Maybe a net success with a despair attached would make them immediately realize they've been had, by a force user no less. A triumph could be they never think about it again, believing it was their own decision. Different results could be anything in between. Point being, there is wiggle room in there based on dice results and I think letting them do their work in that regard is fair, even encouraged. 

I do think this is a great point, however after reading through that talent (Shroud, I'm assuming) it seems a little more geared towards hiding from another force user. Using a variation of the example that got listed above, maybe the Gungan king had been deceived previously by a different force user, so he now has a guy in his court using Sense to ensure it's not repeated. Qui-Gon struts in, activates shroud, and the detector isn't any the wiser his king is being influenced, or potentially attacked.

That being said, Shroud does say that some powers are just too obvious to obfuscate, specifically like picking up an X-Wing with one's mind. So, the talent still leaves my initial question unanswered: Where does using influence lie between the extremes of picking up an X-Wing and being indiscernible to someone not specifically looking for it, especially when the basic power is activated with no other dice for guidance?

As a side note, thanks to everyone for posting! This thread has been a great read so far!

I'd say that the basic power would be obvious the one that makes sense to be more subtle is the mind trick, to me anything that was an attack with the force involved some sort of gesture that made it obvious what was going on, in the cinema this was obviously a visual clue that the person gesturing was the source of what just happened. Example any jedi pointing their palm at a load of droids,, said droids then fall over, it was obvious who done it. Then you had the less obvious "shroud" move where they do a more subtle gesture trying to not be seen.

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I'm not out to screw with my players so unless they roll really poorly or ask for something outrageous I'm not going to punish them for using their character's abilities. The way I run it is that no muggles notice unless a Despair is rolled, that's what a Despair result is for. Another Force User is going to be really difficult to overcome anyway as their Discipline is going to be higher than a normal NPC so even a strait failure could be enough to alert them if the Plot calls for it. If it's a named Rival or Nemesis and their backstory would justify it then maybe a Threat could be enough to alert them but again that's a plot thing.

Every time we see this power used, at least every time I've seen it in the films a TV series, the target is either alone and they aren't aware that someone is trying to use a Power on them even if it fails (they act incredulous, as if the person trying is being a fool) or in a busy area with others around, some paying attention most just going about their business. In the latter case Influence is never noticed by anyone, even by troopers standing right next to each other. The only times we see anyone notice are Jabba in SW and he was old enough to know what Jedi were capable of as well as being immune, and Watto in TFM for basically the same reasons. So there really isn't any president to say the use of Influence is anything more noticeable than someone speaking normally unless they happen to be familiar with the technique and/or are immune to it.

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