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KungFuFerret

Clone Troopers and Force Sensitivity?

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Just random thought I had the other day but, did they ever explore the idea of a Clone Trooper developing Force abilities?  'Cause I stopped watching Clone Wars when they introduced that really dumb Force Trinity thing, and tried to say that THAT was the balance to the Force that Anakin was fated to restore...that he ends up denying. But anyway, that dumb plot aside, I remember early on, Yoda sitting in a cave with a squad of clones, and making a very strong point that while they are all genetically identical, they are all "unique in the Force", which suggests the possibility that they could use the Force at some point.   Did they ever actually run with that plot thread at any point in the show?   Because I do find the idea interesting, and worthy of exploration.  

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That episode with Yoda is the extent of exploring the idea of Clones and their relation to the Force.

 

If you can get past the Mortis arc which admittedly is weird but ultimately has no significant effect on the franchise in any way, the rest of Clone Wars is pretty darn awesome.

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31 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Not in canon, they didnt. But in the non-canon LEGO specials and Freemaker Adventures, they introduced Jek-14.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jek-14

Interesting, but not exactly what I was hoping for.  That was a clone specifically designed to be Force sensitive.  Was more curious if one of them just ever naturally developed the talent.   Thanks for the info though.

 

 

43 minutes ago, GroggyGolem said:

That episode with Yoda is the extent of exploring the idea of Clones and their relation to the Force.

 

If you can get past the Mortis arc which admittedly is weird but ultimately has no significant effect on the franchise in any way, the rest of Clone Wars is pretty darn awesome.

Yeah I've heard it gets better, but that plot was just....SO DUMB.  It was the epitome of fanboy retconning to try and make plot elements "make sense" based on their individual interpretation of the source material, and it just drove me nuts.  And I know Lucas was working with the show, but that felt like a plot element that someone else came up with, I mean it's straight up fan fiction quality writing as far as I'm concerned.   And it just soured me on the show entirely.    

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2 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Yeah I've heard it gets better, but that plot was just....SO DUMB.  It was the epitome of fanboy retconning to try and make plot elements "make sense" based on their individual interpretation of the source material, and it just drove me nuts.  And I know Lucas was working with the show, but that felt like a plot element that someone else came up with, I mean it's straight up fan fiction quality writing as far as I'm concerned.   And it just soured me on the show entirely.    

It actually was Lucas who wanted that put in, haha.

 

It really has no large impact on the story and tbh the whole arc was basically a shared Force vision (open to interpretation but they all black out and wake up in unison).

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2 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Interesting, but not exactly what I was hoping for.  That was a clone specifically designed to be Force sensitive.  Was more curious if one of them just ever naturally developed the talent.   Thanks for the info though.

No prob. If nothing else, it shows that (at least in the LEGO-verse) it’s not an impossibility.

3 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

And I know Lucas was working with the show, but that felt like a plot element that someone else came up with, I mean it's straight up fan fiction quality writing as far as I'm concerned.

Everyone involved (including Lucas) has been entirely consistent - even at the time - in stating that the Mortis storyline came straight from Lucas. Mind you, I’m not saying that means you have to like it. Given his recently-revealed ideas for what he’d have liked to do with a sequel trilogy if he were still involved, it would seem that he’s become quite interested in diving deep into exploring the nature of the Force since the prequel trilogy ended. Not saying that’s good or bad...just sayin’.

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3 minutes ago, GroggyGolem said:

It actually was Lucas who wanted that put in, haha.

 

It really has no large impact on the story and tbh the whole arc was basically a shared Force vision (open to interpretation but they all black out and wake up in unison).

But it does have an impact on the story, a very significant one.  Maybe I'm mis-remembering it, but I distinctly recall the implication that the whole "He will bring balance to the Force" prophecy that was the crux of Anakin's story, was suggested to be THAT, and not the "He will kill the Emperor, and thus bring balance later."  So it basically makes his entire arc in the OT, retconned to have nothing to do with what he set him up to do in the first place.  I just find it a really dumb bit of backfilling an alternate purpose, when the idea that the prophecy itself from the start was accurate, just not a happy prophecy.    If he further chickened out on that, and went with the ever so popular and always effective "it was all just a dream" trope, then it's even dumber IMO.  Because then you just have to ask "ok so what was the point at all then?  Why even have this be here in the first place?"  Seriously, they ended that arc with "it was all a dream"?   Really?  I gave up on it mid arc of that, basically when things were starting to go badly, building up to the climax/resolution.  Just...wow  *facepalm* 

Anyway, rant over.

6 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

No prob. If nothing else, it shows that (at least in the LEGO-verse) it’s not an impossibility.

Everyone involved (including Lucas) has been entirely consistent - even at the time - in stating that the Mortis storyline came straight from Lucas. Mind you, I’m not saying that means you have to like it. Given his recently-revealed ideas for what he’d have liked to do with a sequel trilogy if he were still involved, it would seem that he’s become quite interested in diving deep into exploring the nature of the Force since the prequel trilogy ended. Not saying that’s good or bad...just sayin’.

I'm fine with exploring the Force in further content, as it is the one feature of the Star Wars franchise that makes it unique from other similar scifi settings.  But I DO at least want that exploration to be GOOD :P  and internally consistent with the pre-established plot threads.  Not directly contradicting them and then backing out of doing that too.   

 

Still, I think I might make an npc who was a Clone, who developed Force powers due to exposure to Jedi teachings, and just doing the whole "open your mind" kind of mystic journey.   He could be a fun Mentor for a party if they happen to run across him at some point.

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2 hours ago, GroggyGolem said:

It actually was Lucas who wanted that put in, haha.

 

It really has no large impact on the story and tbh the whole arc was basically a shared Force vision (open to interpretation but they all black out and wake up in unison).

I had the same reaction to that plotline, that it must be some second-hand writer who put that in. I think that this really just points to the fact that it comes off like someone trying to shoehorn and explain something that was better left without that story whether it is meant to be meaningless or meant to be an archetypal depiction of the Force. 

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15 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

I had the same reaction to that plotline, that it must be some second-hand writer who put that in. I think that this really just points to the fact that it comes off like someone trying to shoehorn and explain something that was better left without that story whether it is meant to be meaningless or meant to be an archetypal depiction of the Force. 

The funny thing is it wasn't necessary at all.  After killing Palpatine, and dying himself, the strong push by the Dark side to totally "win" the Great Struggle, was done.  Without any direct agents, the equilibrium would return, at least for a while anyway.  So he did bring balance to the Force, in that he stopped the ever growing avalanche of Dark Side influence in the galaxy.   Even as a kid, I thought that was a perfectly normal and fine interpretation of the prophecy plot device, so I don't see why it needed any further development.  

Then I got older, and realized that Star Wars fanatics literally have enurisms if ANYTHING is left even remotely vague or nebulous, and likely pestered him for decades to explain it for them, to settle the debate they were having with their friends.  And he just threw it out there to shut them up.  "It's not balanced!  Now there's only 1 force user and he's a light sider!!  the prophecy is a lie!" kind of typical fanboy rhetoric that makes my eyes roll back in my head.   I love nerd culture as a whole, but the obsessive levels of literalism and pedantism they insist on living in, makes existing with them in the real world, a very bothersome place.

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2 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

The funny thing is it wasn't necessary at all.  After killing Palpatine, and dying himself, the strong push by the Dark side to totally "win" the Great Struggle, was done.  Without any direct agents, the equilibrium would return, at least for a while anyway.  So he did bring balance to the Force, in that he stopped the ever growing avalanche of Dark Side influence in the galaxy.   Even as a kid, I thought that was a perfectly normal and fine interpretation of the prophecy plot device, so I don't see why it needed any further development.  

Then I got older, and realized that Star Wars fanatics literally have enurisms if ANYTHING is left even remotely vague or nebulous, and likely pestered him for decades to explain it for them, to settle the debate they were having with their friends.  And he just threw it out there to shut them up.  "It's not balanced!  Now there's only 1 force user and he's a light sider!!  the prophecy is a lie!" kind of typical fanboy rhetoric that makes my eyes roll back in my head.   I love nerd culture as a whole, but the obsessive levels of literalism and pedantism they insist on living in, makes existing with them in the real world, a very bothersome place.

Yes. Oh man this made me lol cause it's true. 

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It seems to me, at least mechanically, that a Retired clone trooper has the potential to be the best force user in the game with the Combat Veteran talent. Having up to two blue dice on any discipline check could really give you an edge in any contested force use, or any other power dependent on discipline (most of them).

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On ‎6‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 10:46 AM, Nytwyng said:

Given his recently-revealed ideas for what he’d have liked to do with a sequel trilogy if he were still involved, it would seem that he’s become quite interested in diving deep into exploring the nature of the Force since the prequel trilogy ended. Not saying that’s good or bad...just sayin’.

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Honestly?

Never had much of a problem with midochlorians, thanks to the good ol’ Certain Point if View (TM).

Qui-Gon just had it backwards - midichlorians don’t bestow Force sensitivity...they’re drawn to it. So, a “midichlorian count” can still be used to determine/quantify someone’s Force potential, but it’s not the reason for that potential.

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On 6/19/2018 at 12:44 PM, GroggyGolem said:

It actually was Lucas who wanted that put in, haha.

 

It really has no large impact on the story and tbh the whole arc was basically a shared Force vision (open to interpretation but they all black out and wake up in unison).

They bring it back for the end of Rebels so it’s actually supposed to be a huge part of the new canon. I toss that **** out with the rifle that can shoot down Star destroyers. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Nytwyng said:

Honestly?

Never had much of a problem with midochlorians, thanks to the good ol’ Certain Point if View (TM).

Qui-Gon just had it backwards - midichlorians don’t bestow Force sensitivity...they’re drawn to it. So, a “midichlorian count” can still be used to determine/quantify someone’s Force potential, but it’s not the reason for that potential.

I don't think he ever said they did. Scientists will often measure for bio-markers that are detected to be elevated in association with other conditions, it's how diseases are most frequently identified, we measure the biomarkers that are produced in an immune response in order to evaluate whether that condition is taking place. Most frequently we use this association link between one gene and it's associated biomarkers to measure it's presence. Essentially, it is a physical presence that is left behind by the force sensitivity being triggered in an individual.

The same is of midacholorians. There is an association pattern present, and little boy Annie has a strong amount of these biomarkers. This must mean that he has huge potential, at least according by the sheer number of biomarkers present. It might not be a linier relationship, but those bio-markers are an indication that this individual is significant to the functioning in the force and thus must be given consideration.

Edited by LordBritish

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1 hour ago, Nytwyng said:

Honestly?

Never had much of a problem with midochlorians, thanks to the good ol’ Certain Point if View (TM).

Qui-Gon just had it backwards - midichlorians don’t bestow Force sensitivity...they’re drawn to it. So, a “midichlorian count” can still be used to determine/quantify someone’s Force potential, but it’s not the reason for that potential.

I actually liked that there was a physical representation of the force. I mean if you had told someone in Christopher Colombus’ time that humans were made up of molecules they would have laughed at you for ressurrecting the musings of Ancient Greek philosophers. 

People don’t like that it messes with their mysticism of it, but personally, I love when science and tech meet up at levels that seem magical. 

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1 hour ago, Khazadune said:

They bring it back for the end of Rebels so it’s actually supposed to be a huge part of the new canon. I toss that **** out with the rifle that can shoot down Star destroyers. 

They're kinda just wall paintings *shrugs* their presence is mostly Jedi myths more than anything. Pretty sure that Rebels even refers to them as archetypes and not as living, breathing beings.

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2 hours ago, LordBritish said:

I don't think he ever said they did. Scientists will often measure for bio-markers that are detected to be elevated in association with other conditions, it's how diseases are most frequently identified, we measure the biomarkers that are produced in an immune response in order to evaluate whether that condition is taking place. Most frequently we use this association link between one gene and it's associated biomarkers to measure it's presence. Essentially, it is a physical presence that is left behind by the force sensitivity being triggered in an individual.

The same is of midacholorians. There is an association pattern present, and little boy Annie has a strong amount of these biomarkers. This must mean that he has huge potential, at least according by the sheer number of biomarkers present. It might not be a linier relationship, but those bio-markers are an indication that this individual is significant to the functioning in the force and thus must be given consideration.

But it doesn't actually ADD anything new or relevant to the mythos.  It just slaps a "scientific" label onto something that didn't need it, for no real reason, other than the likelihood of rabid fanboys demanding to know the mechanics of how the Force works, for decades between the OT and PT.

Midichlorians don't explain how the Force works, how some are able to use it rather than others.  And by your statement, it's possibly even just a biproduct, and not directly related to Force use at all.   "He has high white blood cells, so there must be an infection" kind of situation.  So again, so what?   The franchise didn't need to have a scientific rationale or answer for Space Magic, and the fact that pretty much nobody else in the franchise ever brought it up again, even in the other prequel movies, would suggest that the majority of people found it a pointless, and silly part, and have just pretended it was never brought up.  

And to the people about to "Well Actually" at me with crap from the Legacy material, where X author mentioned it, or Y comic book made a passing comment about it, nobody cares, or at least I sure don't.   Those things have been published fan fiction for decades, with people pulling so many crazy things out of their butts, as to make your head spin.  Besides, citing a handful (if that many) examples of it being mentioned, isn't evidence for it being relevant.  The fact that only a handful of examples, compared to the MOUNTAIN of other material, would suggest that the majority of the people making SW content, and the fanbase in general, are perfectly fine without midichlorians.

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45 minutes ago, GroggyGolem said:

They're kinda just wall paintings *shrugs* their presence is mostly Jedi myths more than anything. Pretty sure that Rebels even refers to them as archetypes and not as living, breathing beings.

Wall paintings that are the key to unlocking the secret that makes the plot possible. They are clearly meant to be something more, and including them there signifies that the previous occurrence was not merely a vision. Others have encountered them and they have a deep connection to the galaxy’s Force using traditions. Even the way they were used to open the passage was indicative of their previous roles, again cementing the truth of the encounter Anakin shared. 

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7 hours ago, Khazadune said:

Wall paintings that are the key to unlocking the secret that makes the plot possible. They are clearly meant to be something more, and including them there signifies that the previous occurrence was not merely a vision. Others have encountered them and they have a deep connection to the galaxy’s Force using traditions. Even the way they were used to open the passage was indicative of their previous roles, again cementing the truth of the encounter Anakin shared. 

In the same way that paintings of gods in our world prove they all exist, and are not merely visions.

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49 minutes ago, Darzil said:

In the same way that paintings of gods in our world prove they all exist, and are not merely visions.

If you want to be ridiculous then there is no point in having the discussion.

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8 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

But it doesn't actually ADD anything new or relevant to the mythos.  It just slaps a "scientific" label onto something that didn't need it, for no real reason, other than the likelihood of rabid fanboys demanding to know the mechanics of how the Force works, for decades between the OT and PT.

Midichlorians don't explain how the Force works, how some are able to use it rather than others.  And by your statement, it's possibly even just a biproduct, and not directly related to Force use at all.   "He has high white blood cells, so there must be an infection" kind of situation.  So again, so what?   The franchise didn't need to have a scientific rationale or answer for Space Magic, and the fact that pretty much nobody else in the franchise ever brought it up again, even in the other prequel movies, would suggest that the majority of people found it a pointless, and silly part, and have just pretended it was never brought up.  

And to the people about to "Well Actually" at me with crap from the Legacy material, where X author mentioned it, or Y comic book made a passing comment about it, nobody cares, or at least I sure don't.   Those things have been published fan fiction for decades, with people pulling so many crazy things out of their butts, as to make your head spin.  Besides, citing a handful (if that many) examples of it being mentioned, isn't evidence for it being relevant.  The fact that only a handful of examples, compared to the MOUNTAIN of other material, would suggest that the majority of the people making SW content, and the fanbase in general, are perfectly fine without midichlorians.

The only reason for midichlorians was to allow Qui-Gon to become convinced Anakin was the one referred to in the prophecy. They were needed to make the plot work: a way to detect and measure how strong someone could become in the Force. It has nothing to do with explaining the Force itself.

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1 hour ago, nameless ronin said:

The only reason for midichlorians was to allow Qui-Gon to become convinced Anakin was the one referred to in the prophecy. They were needed to make the plot work: a way to detect and measure how strong someone could become in the Force. It has nothing to do with explaining the Force itself.

Except they'd already established that something weird and Forcey was going on before then. When the two of them landed on the planet, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon both have a "do you feel that?"  "Yeah, there's something really odd with the Force here, I feel it too Master"   moment.  Which is more than enough narrative establishment, to then move on to introducing the boy.   They could've had him do any number of little things that would hint that he had Force sensitivity, like, oh I don't know, absently grabbing at an object he wasn't looking at, and it moving just slightly enough so he could grab it, but not really aware that he did it.  Or reflexively dodging some bit of junk falling in Watto's shop, or heck, having him react to a "disturbance" the same way they do.  In a situation where usually the Jedi are the only ones who notice something odd about to go down, to have the kid clued in too, and Qui-Gon notice it, is more than enough to get his attention.  

So no, I don't agree they were needed to make the plot work, because every other instance of SW has made their plots work just fine without doing a blood test.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, KungFuFerret said:

Except they'd already established that something weird and Forcey was going on before then. When the two of them landed on the planet, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon both have a "do you feel that?"  "Yeah, there's something really odd with the Force here, I feel it too Master"   moment.  Which is more than enough narrative establishment, to then move on to introducing the boy.   They could've had him do any number of little things that would hint that he had Force sensitivity, like, oh I don't know, absently grabbing at an object he wasn't looking at, and it moving just slightly enough so he could grab it, but not really aware that he did it.  Or reflexively dodging some bit of junk falling in Watto's shop, or heck, having him react to a "disturbance" the same way they do.  In a situation where usually the Jedi are the only ones who notice something odd about to go down, to have the kid clued in too, and Qui-Gon notice it, is more than enough to get his attention.  

So no, I don't agree they were needed to make the plot work, because every other instance of SW has made their plots work just fine without doing a blood test.

Merely being Force-sensitive wasn’t enough, plenty of those flew under the radar of the order. They needed to establish his potential (since actual strength in the Force comes in large part from training, “the Force is strong in this one” notwithstanding). Qui-Gonn knew about the Force-sensitivity from the podracing already.

Edited by nameless ronin

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12 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

But it doesn't actually ADD anything new or relevant to the mythos.  It just slaps a "scientific" label onto something that in my opinion didn't need it, for no real reason, other than the likelihood of rabid fanboys demanding to know the mechanics of how the Force works, for decades between the OT and PT.

Midichlorians don't explain how the Force works, how some are able to use it rather than others.  And by your statement, it's possibly even just a biproduct, and not directly related to Force use at all.   "He has high white blood cells, so there must be an infection" kind of situation.  So again, so what?   The franchise in my opinion didn't need to have a scientific rationale or answer for Space Magic, and the fact that pretty much nobody else in the franchise ever brought it up again, even in the other prequel movies, would suggest that the majority of people found it a pointless, and silly part, and have just pretended it was never brought up. 

Fixed that for you.

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