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Commander Kaine

Whining is annoying, but it solves problems

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Whining have never been useful as there is no consensus on your whines. Half of you want X when the other half want -X. Make your own rules, play as you want and please stop this nonsense. Sorry if I am rude but it's making me sick to read all this bordel.

We should organize a vote for creating a sub forum " improvement proposal"

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1 hour ago, Commander Kaine said:

The Punisher was a bad ship. I whined about it. That doesn't make my whining about it factually inaccurate. It makes ME annoying, but the ship still sucked. 

It may not be inaccurate, but it's also not helpful.  How is it bad?  If we simply double the amount of munitions slots, that would be a change, but does it make it any less bad?  In your sandwich example, you actually mentioned what was wrong with the sandwich, which can allow the shop owner to improve it.  If all you do is whine about how bad something is without helping figure out how it's bad, you're not helpful in fixing it, and odds are you're not going to like the fix when it comes (since it'll be addressing what the developers think is bad, rather than what you think is bad).

And no, I don't think most folks on the Internet are suddenly going to turn their whines into something more useful, but that doesn't mean we can't try to have reasonable standards.  Every once in a while on message boards I do see someone who whines, and then when others point out that it's not very helpful, they go into more detail and actually develop their argument.  It's rare, but it does give me some faint hope that all is not lost.

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2 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

It may not be inaccurate, but it's also not helpful.  How is it bad?  If we simply double the amount of munitions slots, that would be a change, but does it make it any less bad?  In your sandwich example, you actually mentioned what was wrong with the sandwich, which can allow the shop owner to improve it.  If all you do is whine about how bad something is without helping figure out how it's bad, you're not helpful in fixing it, and odds are you're not going to like the fix when it comes (since it'll be addressing what the developers think is bad, rather than what you think is bad).

And no, I don't think most folks on the Internet are suddenly going to turn their whines into something more useful, but that doesn't mean we can't try to have reasonable standards.  Every once in a while on message boards I do see someone who whines, and then when others point out that it's not very helpful, they go into more detail and actually develop their argument.  It's rare, but it does give me some faint hope that all is not lost.

You are still stuck on this. 

Whining, in and of itself, does not mean that it isn't helpful. You keep rephrasing the same thing, and you say that whining is JUST whining, and keep the conversation on the stupid semantics issue. Even if you guys were right, and whining did mean that there is no useful information being transmitted (which is not the case), it would be kinda tedious to explain myself over and over again. I don't know why do you refuse to listen to my attempts at rephrasing the original message. 

It should be clear now what do I mean by the word "whine", even if you disagree with that definition. But you boggle down the conversation again and again with the same talking point, which more or less adds up to "whining does not convey accurate information about the problems of the game".

Fine. let's talk semantics. 

 

I used the word for 2 reasons. 

1) Rhetoric. Whining is a more polarized word than complaining, it grabs attention. Call it clickbait if you will. 

2) The word itself is popular on the forum, as I have pointed it out several times. It is often used to describe any negative opinion about the game, regardless of its usefulness, or style. One could write an academic essay about something, and it would be considered whining here. By using this very world in the title of the thread, I hoped to showcase the hypocrisy of the forums, and a recent thread, both of which tend to ignore the fact that Xwing 2.0 fixes the things people were "whining" about for years. 

Every time the Jumpmaster was brought up in a thread, people were calling the complaints whining, but it was legitimate. 

 

Your example of munitions slot is... strange? I don't recall anyone ever making that suggestion, and believe me, I follow the Punisher threads. It seems like a weak attempt at exaggerating these threads to absurdity, and it still does not address what I've been saying here repeatedly. 

My stylistic choices to express my concerns might alienate people who read it, but my message is not inherently flawed or damaging because of this. 

Similarly, in the past, people might have went overboard, or repetitive with the "OMG NERF THE JUMPMASTER" threads, but their concerns and solutions were valid, and looking at the changes we see in 2.0, almost all of these questions were answered by FFG. 

I don't get how people can assume that the complaining/whining [call it what you will] on the official forums had no result on the new edition... this seems insane to me. 

People HAVE stated, REPEATEDLY what is EXACTLY wrong with each ship. Some more than others. 

 

Regardless. The whole point of the thread was really just a few words: 

People will be whining regardless of what you think or say. Instead of hating on them, for being emotionally invested in this game (and maybe not handling it a 100% correctly), you could be thankful that at least somebody says something. 

I've been working in the service industry for years now. Most of our feedback comes from angry, fed up, intolerable people. Our sales numbers tell us what is good, but it does not tell us what the customers think is bad. Only the customers do that. 

 

But if anybody here thinks that FFG is not listening to customers, especially with X-Wing being such a popular game and seemingly the part of their long term strategy, please put your hands up. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

FFG has a forum where costumers are talking about the product freely. Do you honestly think they don't take notes of what's bugging people? 

...Yes? Actually I do believe this, and I hope to god it’s true that they ignore us. No disrespect intended, but most of the suggestions I see on the forums are utterly horrific, and I would probably quit if forum posts had an appreciable impact on the game. We’re not game designers, and we don’t understand their licenses or supply chain, but it’s perfectly clear that Alex, Max, and Frank understand these things and care about the game. Please don’t insult their intelligence.

I’m all for constructive threads, and discussions about why, how, and whether things are balanced (see: request for X-Wing design articles). I don’t really care if you’ve lost to Nym in the last ten matches and want to complain, but if you’d like to discuss why the Nym design was botched on account of [reasons], I’m game. 

The simple fix for making any forum respectable is removing anonymity, as per the old Penny Arcade comic. I post under my actual name for a reason, not just as a joke. 

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2 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:

The simple fix for making any forum respectable is removing anonymity, as per the old Penny Arcade comic. I post under my actual name for a reason, not just as a joke. 

Anonymity is part of internet culture. Taking it away will only lead towards people becoming less honest. I'd rather be true, than polite. 

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2 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Anonymity is part of internet culture. Taking it away will only lead towards people becoming less honest. I'd rather be true, than polite. 

I just told you that (a) this is my real name and (b) I think most of the forum posts are basically worthless. You can do both. I believe in you!

Also, you can be honest without being a flaming ****. It’s true, I assure you. And if you find that it’s not possible for you, that seems like a personal problem? 

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3 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:

I just told you that (a) this is my real name and (b) I think most of the forum posts are basically worthless. You can do both. I believe in you!

Also, you can be honest without being a flaming ****. It’s true, I assure you. And if you find that it’s not possible for you, that seems like a personal problem? 

Well, nice to meet you, my name is Aurél Kovács. 

You can be, but you don't have to. Which is the beauty of the internet. 

It's not about what is possible, and what is not... It's what you require from people. People's personal information is owned by them. If they don't want to share, they shouldn't have to. And some people being annoyed by trolls is not enough justification to take away that right. 

Now I'll go back under my bridge. 

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58 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

2) The word itself is popular on the forum, as I have pointed it out several times. It is often used to describe any negative opinion about the game, regardless of its usefulness, or style. One could write an academic essay about something, and it would be considered whining here. By using this very world in the title of the thread, I hoped to showcase the hypocrisy of the forums, and a recent thread, both of which tend to ignore the fact that Xwing 2.0 fixes the things people were "whining" about for years. 

Every time the Jumpmaster was brought up in a thread, people were calling the complaints whining, but it was legitimate. 

Then the people calling it whining were wrong, too.  According to Webster's, to whine is defined as, "to utter a high-pitched plaintive or distressed cry" (as well as various definitions referring to a similarity to such cries).  It is a sound or a noise, communicating only dissatisfaction.  For a more colloquial definition, Urban Dictionary says, "Whining is complaining when the complaining is of no use."

When people call legitimate complaints "whining", they're basically trying to just shut up people who disagree with them by insulting their arguments.  It's no different from person A calling person B's argument idiotic, and then you trying to defend person B by pointing out that, "idiotic arguments are really rather useful."  By adapting A's misuse of the word, you're really just joining in on insulting B.  Words have meanings; we can't just make up whatever definitions we want.

1 hour ago, Commander Kaine said:

Your example of munitions slot is... strange?

Which was EXACTLY my point.  When the entire post is, "This ship is horrible!" without any further information, it is whining, as it tells us nothing useful about why the ship is bad.  A developer, just knowing that people dislike a ship and not knowing why, may well conclude that "horrible" equals "underpowered" and decide that the solution is to add more munitions slots.  That's not what people actually want, but how will the developer know that if people don't even attempt to communicate properly?

1 hour ago, Commander Kaine said:

People will be whining regardless of what you think or say. Instead of hating on them, for being emotionally invested in this game (and maybe not handling it a 100% correctly), you could be thankful that at least somebody says something. 

I'll use an example of one of the 2.0 threads a few weeks back.  There were some people all for 2.0, and some people who disliked portions of it.  Some said they didn't want to rebuy ships, and others said they didn't like being tied to an app to play a tabletop game.  Some of us disagreed with their reasoning, and there were some arguments, but overall the discussion wasn't too bad.  Then some people decided to just jump in and start ranting about "2.0 RUINED THE GAME!  X-WING IS DEAD!" and that just drags everyone's mood down until they're even sniping at the people who were being reasonable, who then start sniping back.  So yes, reasonable disagreement and rationally discussing complaints can be beneficial, but there also are truly non-helpful or even detrimental posts, too.  Lumping them all together under "whining" doesn't really do anyone any favors on the pro side any more than it does on the anti side.

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See, this is where whining gets you;

Image result for whining star wars gif

 

Nothing. Luke never got to Tosch Station, he had to live without power converters.

 

Complaining however, can be constructive;

Image result for walking carpet star wars gif

 

See? Leia got what she wanted because she was in a position to influence the outcome. Whining here doesn't do that. Playtesters are in an position to influence things.

 

 

I will admit, it has been said people who DO have influence doe read these forums. You dismiss as 'stylistic' (I think that's the word you used...) the difference between a whinge and a complaint. Personally, I think a whinge gets this response;

Image result for stop star wars gif

or this;

Image result for interesting star wars gif

Whereas a complaint might get this response;

Image result for idea star wars gif

Image result for idea star wars gif

 

:P

 

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6 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

Listen folks

I get it. It's annoying to hear about someone's favorite ship not being up to their standards, be it the most well known ship in the universe, or a lovely overweight bomber. 

It's also crappy to hear that one of your favorite cards or combos is overpowered, especially when you put in effort into practicing with it, or you just really like the flavor of the K-Wing (hey... I'm not gonna judge) or something. 

It is also annoying to listen to these things all the time, over and over again. 

 

However.

 

It would be foolish to disregard these threads, posts and comments in their capacity to induce the change we see today. If everybody just "shuts up and gits good", FFG would hardly see the level of dissatisfaction with some mechanics like turrets, high PS alpha strikes, bombs etc. 

 

I'm not saying that every change in 2.0 was induced by us whining. But I'm also sure that without it, not everything we like about 2.0 would be manifested as it is today. 

 

Being thankful that FFG listens, while claiming that the posts they listened to are ruining X-Wing is a bit harsh I feel. 

 

So I don't know. Hug a whiner today. Or at least  don't deny that their dissatisfaction had a role to play in us receiving the version of the game most of us wanted. 

C'mon...whining got the community 2.0 and all those nerfs to 1.0. 


That's gotta count for something. 

Edited by Scopes

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18 minutes ago, Scopes said:

C'mon...whining got the community 2.0 and all those nerfs to 1.0. 


That's gotta count for something. 

The existence of change doesn't mean whining caused the change. Most people are inclined to write off whining out of hand, even if it does contain a good point. Most people just don't take whining seriously.

There's plenty of constructive posts about the rules and power levels etc. I'd credit them for having an influence.

Image result for star wars gif not quite

 

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11 minutes ago, Rat of Vengence said:

The existence of change doesn't mean whining caused the change. Most people are inclined to write off whining out of hand, even if it does contain a good point. Most people just don't take whining seriously.

There's plenty of constructive posts about the rules and power levels etc. I'd credit them for having an influence.

Image result for star wars gif not quite

 

I think I was clear about what I meant over these last several posts. Even the constructive posts are grouped as "whining" by many people here. This is really just a semantics issue. I explained my choice of words adequately, at least I think. 

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5 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

 

 

1, All complaints, regardless of style, are called whining on this forum. 

2, Whining is a stylistic difference still, and it does not mean the complaint is not valid. You can say it does, but it doesn't. The difference between complaining and whining does not carry with itself a judgment about the content. It might be more emotional, or less compelling, and you might decide to ignore for those reasons, but it DOES NOT MEAN IT'S NOT VALID. 
Example: The Punisher was a bad ship. I whined about it. That doesn't make my whining about it factually inaccurate. It makes ME annoying, but the ship still sucked. 

I agree with most of what you wrote. I tend to group critics into 3 classes. The first is the Rabid Whiner

This is the most annoying of all the complainers. They are loud, annoying, not open to discussion and always right. At least in their minds. If some facet of the game interferes with their enjoyment (read winning) it's deemed OP, needs nerfed to H**L and back or costed so nobody will or can use it. Rabid Whiners are little better than trolls or 2 year olds throwing a tantrum. I try to ignore this type of complainer.

The second type of poster is just the Complainer. He will identify a problem, or what he considers to be a problem, and calls for its correction. No explanation or follow on. Taking your example of the Punisher, from his post it's difficult to tell if he means the ship or the model sucks.

The third type of complainer will cite a problem, illustrate why he thinks it's a problem and possibly offer some ideas to correct or mitigate the imbalance. He's open to discussion and will intelligently defend his stand. If he offers up possible solutions, they'll be well thought and not a knee jerk reaction. Let's call him the Careful Critic.

Now if all three of these players were to post about the same problem, which one is most likely to get read? I'd pass over the rant and possibly the second one, especially if I don't happen to agree with what he perceives as a problem. I'm more apt to read a well thought out argument. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Commander Kaine said:

This is really just a semantics issue.

I agree.  Of course, I also happen to think that semantics are very important in productive discussions.  Too often, I see people talking at cross-purposes because no one took the time to make sure that each knew what the other meant by the words they used.

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Just now, JJ48 said:

I agree.  Of course, I also happen to think that semantics are very important in productive discussions.  Too often, I see people talking at cross-purposes because no one took the time to make sure that each knew what the other meant by the words they used.

I did take the time to type it out several times. Why people decided to ignore it after the fact, is a whole another issue about reading comprehension, arguing in bad faith and just generally sh#tty behavior. 
 

So I feel the "no one" part a bit harsh. You guys didn't take the time to read what I was writing, and even when you did, you were boggled down by what I've written, rather than what I've meant, despite being explained many times. 

Your other post is an example of this. You quoted a post where I explain what I mean, I think the second time in a row, yet you refuse to answer any of my actual points. 

You just talked about why you don't think I used the right words. What is that, if not talking cross purposes? I think I explained myself many times. 

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37 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

I did take the time to type it out several times. Why people decided to ignore it after the fact, is a whole another issue about reading comprehension, arguing in bad faith and just generally sh#tty behavior. 
 

So I feel the "no one" part a bit harsh. You guys didn't take the time to read what I was writing, and even when you did, you were boggled down by what I've written, rather than what I've meant, despite being explained many times. 

Your other post is an example of this. You quoted a post where I explain what I mean, I think the second time in a row, yet you refuse to answer any of my actual points. 

You just talked about why you don't think I used the right words. What is that, if not talking cross purposes? I think I explained myself many times. 

I guess I never addressed your points because, as far as I could understand it, your point was that it was possible for negative feedback to have a positive impact on the game.  I know I certainly don't disagree with that, so what is there to address?  Literally the only thing I disagree with is whether it's proper to lump them all together as whiners.

EDIT:  I should also clarify that the part about people failing to define terms was meant as an explanation as to why I think semantics are important in general, not as a critique of this conversation in particular.

Edited by JJ48

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11 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Ironically, what does nobody any good is the whining about whining.  It's always just amazed me how derpy people have to be to do that.  Completely unselfconsciously.

In this instance he's not wrong; 

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