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The State of Rebel Carriers, Yavaris

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https://archiveofossus.wordpress.com/2018/06/17/the-state-of-rebel-carriers-yavaris/

1200px-Aircraft_carrier_at_underway_repl

For a long time Yavaris has been very strong and the lynchpin of almost every rebel squadron fleet. In this post nerf world, the time has come to question whether it should be the first name of a squadron list still?

Now before we meet the contenders lets discuss whats important in a carrier:

Command Magnitude – When it comes to activating squads, the more the merrier. Using a single high volume activation rather than multiple low volume activations restricts the enemies opportunity to respond. This in turns means that more can be achieved with less, which is of utmost importance with an ‘alpha strike’.

Command Sustenance – Squadrons dont just stop needing activations after the ‘alpha strke’, they need constant support. Treat them like kids, they need the attention, so its important for a carrier to keep up the squadron commands turn after turn.

Command Economy – Its all well and good activating squadrons, but how much does it cost to do so? Theres no point activating 4 squads if it takes a 110 pt ship to do it……… oh hang on, the Imperials actually do that? WOW

Manueverability – Carriers need to be able to keep up with their squads and hold their positioning without the benefit of nav dials. A decent speed and yaw values goes a long way on a carrier.

Resilience – Carriers need to stay alive, squadrons dont give up demanding activations from your carrier till the end of the game, and in general its your carrier that is preventing you from being tabled to give the squadrons time to work.

So lets meet the contenders!

Note – Flight Commander, Toryn Farr and Adar Tallon are not part of the discussion of this article.

The Baby Faced Assassin – Gr75 Medium Transport with Bright Hope title, Expanded Hangers and Bomber Command Centre – 33 points

gr-75-medium-transports.pngbright-hope.pngexpanded-hangar-bay.pngbomber-command-center.png

The cute ship of the bunch, looking so innocent on the table and seemingly no reason to take it seriously.

Command Magnitude – 4 aquad alpha followed by sustained 3 squad activations.

Command Sustenance – Flotillas have nothing better to do than command squads but will need to follow the squads in without any boosted range.

Command Economy – 11pts per activation with bonus Bomber Command rerolls

Manueverability -Pretty good maneuverability, given a good deployment no nav dials required.

Resilience -Scatter and Bright Hope combine to keep this flotilla alive against small threats, but relies on its innocence to survive the big guns. It also doesnt count for tabling.

Overall – Cheap and cheerful, the most cost effective carrier with plenty of benefits for supporting a primarily mixed bomber fighter wing to battle. Excellent with Xwings and Ewings.

The Godfather – MC80 COmmand Cruiser with Fighter Coordination Teams, Boosted Comms and Electronic Countermeasures – 120 points

mc80-command.pngfighter-coordination-team.pngboosted-comms.pngelectronic-countermeasures.png

The heavyweight of the carriers bringing a 4 activation sustained beat along with an extremelly sturdy chassis.

Command Magnitude – 5 squadron alpha with another 4 speed 1 maneuvers.

Command Sustenance – Either this ship is going to want the occasional nav/eng command or a comms net flotilla following behind in convoy.

Command Economy – 30pts per activation with bonus movement

Manueverability – Very limited movement, not particularly helped by nav dials, needs to deploy last.

Resilience – With 8 hull, loads of shields and ECM this ship is tough to bring down.

Overall – A massive chin of a carrier making sure you get the maximum amount of time for squadrons to do their work. Excellent for heavy bombers which need time to free themselves from the enemy before going to work.

The Classic “BLT” – Assault Frigate Mark II B with Gallant Haven Title, Flight Controllers, Boosted Comms and Electronic Countermeasures – 97 points

assault-frigate-mark-II-B.pnggallant-haven.pngflight-controllers.pngboosted-comms.pngelectronic-countermeasures.png

We’ve all seen this combination flying around the tables, a slice of reliability, sprinkling of defensive resolve and a topping of added guns between a boosting range and boosting damage sandwich.

Command Magnitude – 4 squad alpha and continuous 3 squad activations.

Command Sustenance – A generous nav chart will let this ship keep the squad dials coming with boosted range to keep the squads in range.

Command Economy – 32pts per activation with bonus damage reduction and damage boost.

Manueverability – Very good flexibility in movement and guns that quite happily strafe the enemy.

Resilience – Uses speed to stay out of the worst of the enemy attacks and ECM to weather the rest. Reasonably robust.

Overall – Old school this combo was used to keep Awings going primarily because it is a very good secondary carrier whilst concentrating on long range fire. Works well with small and medium squad screens.

Speedy Gonzalez – Modified Pelta Class Command with Fighter Coordination Teams, Expanded Hanger Bays and All Fighters Follow me – 73 points

swm21-modified-pelta-class-command-ship.pngfighter-coordination-team.pngexpanded-hangar-bay.pngswm21-all-fighters-follow-me.png

This package really brings the thrusters giving multiple boosts to get your squads into position.

Command Magnitude – 5 squad alpha plus 4 speed 1 manuevers and bonus speed boosts all round.

Command Sustenance – Rolling at max speed 2 and no guns worth getting on target the pelta can concentrate on the job at hand. May have issues keeping up with the fight.

Command Economy – 24 pts per activation with bonus speed and movements.

Manueverability – Very slow and not particularly maneuverable, however it has no urgency to get to the centre of the fight so should be able to follow at speed 2 reasonably well.

Resilience – Not fanastic, only increased by its lack of need to go brawling and can hang back as a trailer clearing the rear of the fleet of enemy ships.

Overall – A poor mans MC80 without the difficulty in trying to keep guns on target, and with squad activations coming in at 24pts to 30pts the benefit is obvious. Similar to the MC80 works well for moving slow squads.

The Third Musketeer – Hera Syndulla – 28 points

swx23-hera-syndulla.png

Taking up the role of the third flotilla, Hera Syndulla breaks the restriction on the number of 20pt carriers in your list.

Command Magnitude – 2 squad command every round without fail.

Command Sustenance – Inbuilt unstoppable sustenance.

Command Economy – 14 pts per activation with a restricted timing.

Manueverability – Can turn on a dime.

Resilience – Being a squad the threat from enemy ships is reduced and a brace is useful. Tends to last a while and if she is taking heat then your other squads arent.

Overall – If you already have 2 flotillas in your list for their 11pt squad activations she gives you access to 14pt squad activations. Not to be sniffed at.

The Legend of Zorro – Nebulon B Escort Frigate with the Yavaris Title and Fighter Coordination Teams – 65 points

nebulon-b-escort-frigate.pngyavaris.pngfighter-coordination-team.png

Rumours can be found in far flung regions of this ship, whispers only though as its rare for discussions of its existance to go unsquashed by the authorities.

Command Magnitude – 3 squad alpha followed by sustained 4 attack activation.

Command Sustenance – Excepting a slicer target on its back, Yavaris tends to have nothing else to do.

Command Economy – 32pts per activation / hopefully 16pts per attack

Manueverability – Reasonable movement, however unable to turn away from an enemies guns.

Resilience – Can take an initial beating with pride, however struggles under sustained fire, yet because of its weak sides has limited ability to disengage. Will inevitably be killed giving up points to the enemy.

Overall – To get the benefit of the 16pt squad attack activations really requires some infrastructure in the form of Adar Tallon and fighter coordination teams elsewhere. Best used to get double benefit out of specialist aces, otherwise there are cheaper and easier options elsewhere within the rebel arsenal.

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Posted (edited)

I wouldn't underestimate the potential from multiplying the attack potential out of ace squadrons. If squads are balanced with the understanding that they hit once, it's pretty potent to be the only mechanism to double the output of 2-3 squadrons and thier special effect.

Things like nym or wedge or farlander. 

That's why I rate yavaris in it's own category- it does a thing that no other ship does, apart from a 10 point officer with one squadron. Yavaris is a potent card in an uncontested title as well, adar tallon lands in a competitive slot.

Edited by Norsehound

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46 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

I wouldn't underestimate the potential from multiplying the attack potential out of ace squadrons. If squads are balanced with the understanding that they hit once, it's pretty potent to be the only mechanism to double the output of 2-3 squadrons and thier special effect.

Things like nym or wedge or farlander. 

That's why I rate yavaris in it's own category- it does a thing that no other ship does, apart from a 10 point officer with one squadron. Yavaris is a potent card in an uncontested title as well, adar tallon lands in a competitive slot.

So Yavaris should be nerfed to 1 squadron!!!!!!

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9 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Much snips

So I think what it comes down to is what you want your carrier to do for you.  For better or for worse, Assault Frigates are the only real viable spot for Flight Controllers (Maybe an MC75?).  Yavaris is the only way to double tap (which as has been pointed out, is best with Aces or heavy bombers), Pelta is the only IF! plan, Hera is the best way to wait out a lot of people, and HMC80 is the best way to keep your carrier alive.  I view it as what you want your ships/squads to do, but really they can all work.

The problem Rebels run into now is that because Aces are so good at what Ten Numb does and because you've likely already had Rieekan in there already, Yav is basically the standard.  Not necessarily the GOLD standard, but just the default.  I have plans for a Pelta list, but I think that the GH nerf did more to kill GH than anything, really.  At least I still have the AF in my Ackbar list?

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, TallGiraffe said:

So Yavaris should be nerfed to 1 squadron!!!!!!

Is it a rampant out-of-control power unit? depends on whom you ask, and what experiences they have. Yavaris is a combination of precise cards (you need a token economy to abuse Yavaris' power, and the support nebulon only has squadron 1), but it is a potent combination. It's so potent it is, as I see it, a requirement for every run-of-the-mill-standard Rebel list, whether you're running a large fighter ball or some key ace squadrons.

I don't feel the attack power out of fighter 4 on a MC80 is equal to the Fighter 2 out of Yavaris with squads that don't move. It comes down to that.

Certainly lists that run lots of fighters and give a wide range for Yavaris double-tapping is potent. Potent enough, in my opinion, that it's the unmatched defensive list archetype. I still have not heard of a list beating, through engagement, a Yavaris Rieekan squadron ball dedicated to mass activations, a large number of aces and B-Wings, and the defensive bonus. As I understand it, this list died when players took a deeper bid against it to force it to go first. Or an opponent deployed in a corner and tried to get a late-game kill to defeat it.

When I consider the ability leveraged out of Yavaris like that, and how hard that defensive list is to beat conceptually, it's hard to rate a "normal" carrier against how potent Yavaris is when mixed with a selection of excellent wide-ranged fighters.

 

The reasons I would see about going to another carrier over Yavaris is:

1. Do you want a cheaper ship? The Flotilla combination and Hera look like good alternatives.

2. Do you want more mobility out of your list and abandon the B-Wing's supremacy in AA/Battery attack power?

3. Do you want to put your carrier in a position where a broadside does not mean instant death?

 

In spite of the notes above about Yavaris (as I don't think Gink here completely highlights the significance of why Yavaris is so excellent), I do think this is an excellent guide to Rebel fighter options. Next time I bring Rebels to the tables I'd like to consult this so I'm not auto-defaulting to Yavaris. The Flotilla option looks great.

Edited by Norsehound

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5 hours ago, TallGiraffe said:

So Yavaris should be nerfed to 1 squadron!!!!!!

A friend of mine did some math and determined that every time Yavaris executes its double tap with one or more aces, it effectively adds almost 40 total points of squadrons to the board.   That's a tremendously powerful ability. 

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4 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

A friend of mine did some math and determined that every time Yavaris executes its double tap with one or more aces, it effectively adds almost 40 total points of squadrons to the board.   That's a tremendously powerful ability. 

While originally I said that as a joke, I wonder how Yavaris will affect design space for Rebel squadrons in the future. I mean look at all the abilities that can be double tapped. Luke, Dutch, Wedge, Ten Numb, Farlander, Nym, E-wings in general. 

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9 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

Similarly,  Demolisher limits design space for Imperials and Rebels despite the general decline in power of Wave 1 ships and squadrons. 

While true, we also have more counters to Demolisher. 

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I think Yavaris is powerful. It has significant limitations now that relay was changed.
It is quite possible to design lists that, paired with a suitable playstyle, murder those defensive yavaris lists. JJ for example demonstrated (sort of) how such a list could be handled by Raddus. Cymoons with a measured approach could do it. You cannot fly into a Yav activated Fighter ball and expect to come out happy, so dont do it. I know you Imperials enjoy pointing your big thing in the middle of the enemy's things and expect to scatter all before you, in this case size just isnt everything ;-).

 

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Just now, RapidReload said:

I think Yavaris is powerful. It has significant limitations now that relay was changed.
It is quite possible to design lists that, paired with a suitable playstyle, murder those defensive yavaris lists. JJ for example demonstrated (sort of) how such a list could be handled by Raddus. Cymoons with a measured approach could do it. You cannot fly into a Yav activated Fighter ball and expect to come out happy, so dont do it. I know you Imperials enjoy pointing your big thing in the middle of the enemy's things and expect to scatter all before you, in this case size just isnt everything ;-).

 

We literally have no other options. Our guns point forward. Our ships are designed for the extreme alpha strike.   Everything about Imperial ships is designed to fly directly into a Yavaris ball, because we have no other effective way to approach it.  A sufficient squad ball might crack it with above average dice. 

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

Aside shootin it, raid tokens, slicers uhhhh. Killing the squads.

1. Rieekan, but yes, that feels like the closest thing to an answer.

2. Raid tokens? I’m gonna bring Gauntlets and Intel in my list?

3. Far from useless, unless they bring Leia, rendering it pointless. And if it becomes a thing, Leia usage will rise.

4.  Double-tapping Ten Numb in a Jan-boosted Escort fortress is arguably the strongest squad loadout in the game. Heck, even Sloane lists fear it, because it absorbs an amazing amount of damage.

20 minutes ago, RapidReload said:

I think Yavaris is powerful. It has significant limitations now that relay was changed.
It is quite possible to design lists that, paired with a suitable playstyle, murder those defensive yavaris lists. JJ for example demonstrated (sort of) how such a list could be handled by Raddus. Cymoons with a measured approach could do it. You cannot fly into a Yav activated Fighter ball and expect to come out happy, so dont do it. I know you Imperials enjoy pointing your big thing in the middle of the enemy's things and expect to scatter all before you, in this case size just isnt everything ;-).

 

Imperial ships aren’t generally built to shoot sideways, they don’t tend toward being cheap to give you deployment advantages for flanking, and they aren’t usually maneuverable (though JJ is amazing.). Can you show these lists?  Also, they don’t seem to have been at worlds, unless they have other serious problems (Raddus had a strong showing, but that trickled off too.)

Edited by The Jabbawookie
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2 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

We literally have no other options. Our guns point forward. Our ships are designed for the extreme alpha strike.   Everything about Imperial ships is designed to fly directly into a Yavaris ball, because we have no other effective way to approach it.  A sufficient squad ball might crack it with above average dice. 

Seems a bit simplified to me. The Liberty points forward as well and is much worse at dealing with squads. That ship placed well in Euros and Globals (yes raddus, still). Just dont engage yav at turn three in the middle of the fighter ball and you should be fine.

Obvsly its not always trivial, but Yav can be outplayed now, that it has to actually be close to the squads it wants to activate.

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1 minute ago, The Jabbawookie said:

1. Rieekan, but yes, that feels like the closest thing to an answer.

2. Raid tokens? I’m gonna bring Gauntlets and Intel in my list?

3. Far from useless, unless they bring Leia, rendering it pointless. And if it becomes a thing, Leia usage will rise.

4.  Double-tapping Ten Numb in a Jan-boosted Escort fortress is arguably the strongest squad loadout in the game. Heck, even Sloane lists fear it, because it absorbs an amazing amount of damage.

Imperial ships aren’t generally built to shoot sideways, they don’t tend toward being cheap to give you deployment advantages for flanking, and they aren’t usually maneuverable (though JJ is amazing.)  Can you show us these lists?  Also, they don’t seem to have been at worlds, unless they have other serious problems (Raddus had a strong showing, but that trickled off too.)

Its less the fleet than the mental approach/playstyle.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, TallGiraffe said:

While originally I said that as a joke, I wonder how Yavaris will affect design space for Rebel squadrons in the future. I mean look at all the abilities that can be double tapped. Luke, Dutch, Wedge, Ten Numb, Farlander, Nym, E-wings in general. 

I do think it's kind of the Biggs of Armada. That X-Wing pilot prevented the creation of so many defensive elite pilot tallent upgrades, because you didn't dare make an invincible, unkillable pilot that you were forced to shoot at every turn and couldn't kill. You can't move forward with creating squadrons without considering how Yavaris will make them broken.

Rhymer was severely gimping Imperial fighter options until he was cut off at the knees. I'm still astounded Yavaris was allowed to continue with Fighter Coordination Teams single-handedly bypassing Yavaris' one restriction in a slot that is by no means competitive on a Nebulon. It's... kind of disgusting that it was allowed to persist. Even with the change, Yavaris is back to where it should be in power... but it's no less powerful, in my opinion.

 

52 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

Aside shootin it, raid tokens, slicers uhhhh. Killing the squads.

As soon as you got into long range you'd encounter the entire Yavaris-supported fighter ball (since Flight Commander allows that activation following Yavaris' move into medium range of her fighters)... which would proceed to shred the first target encountered to pieces (Norra-pumped B-Wings striking twice with BCC and Toryn support. Think about that). If you've played enough you can gauge the distance and hold your fighters out at range to be ready for Yavaris' 1-speed activation to be in place to double-tap the squadrons.

Unless you can deliver raid tokens from outside the offensive range of a fighter cloud, that's not going to happen. Your Gauntlets would need a source of Intel to ignore the Yavaris fighter ball, and a ship would need to live long enough for Jyn to trigger. Even then, as Jabba points out, you bring a 3-point officer on a flotilla to solve the slicer tool problem.

I've found that kitting up a fighter squadron to tackle a Yavaris fighter squadron means committing your entire points selection to anti-fighter forces. Granted, if you can pull it off you've gutted the yavaris list. But if you fail, then Yavaris still carries the day with a fighter ball swinging all-purpose fighters for less points that do more harm to a wider range of targets.

 

It's not that simple. We've tried.

20 minutes ago, RapidReload said:

(yes raddus, still)

This is worth quoting because Raddus enables something that can threaten Yavaris: You don't have to cross the board with Yavaris' nemesis.

A yavaris threat ball works because it pounds something as soon as it enters long range and keeps the momentum to finish the largest targets on about two turns. With Raddus you have two things going: First you're bringing your heavy-hitter on one of multiple attack vectors, forcing the fighter ball to choose one or two of your 3+ small ships to destroy to prevent teleporting. Raddus can choose any one of them to bring in, so he WILL hyper in the heavy warship he needs.

Second is you don't need to spend the turn under the guns of fighters. You can deploy, say, an MC75 at close range and angled in such a way to best double-arc the Nebulon's sides. If you can weather one turn of Yavaris' angry fighter gnats, your 75' (or other chosen heavy/other starship) activates and does everything it can to delete Yavaris in one turn. If it can't, you're going to have a second turn of Yavaris trying to delete your heavy... then it comes down to a race of whether the sheer bomber firepower can destroy a large ship before you get to sucker-punch Yavaris.

All of this isn't taking into consideration any blockers the Yavaris defensive player would use. Flotillas, small ships, spread-out fighters... there are ways to try blocking a yavaris drop that a skilled Yavaris player would probably consider.

 

10 minutes ago, RapidReload said:

There was an innovative, decent imperial “anti yav list“ at euros that placed well and was later covered by master of the fleet btw. 

Let's see it! And tell us how it was run- incidental hearsay isn't enough to convince me at any rate. I want to see some proof and see that list tried. I, for one, have been bludgeoned by defensive Yavaris lists as Empire for months. That was enough to convince me how rough that list is.

Edited by Norsehound

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12 minutes ago, RapidReload said:

Seems a bit simplified to me. The Liberty points forward as well and is much worse at dealing with squads. That ship placed well in Euros and Globals (yes raddus, still). Just dont engage yav at turn three in the middle of the fighter ball and you should be fine.

Obvsly its not always trivial, but Yav can be outplayed now, that it has to actually be close to the squads it wants to activate.

Raddus breaks the game similar to Demo. Drop a ship where ever you want in a perfect spot fresh in the battlefield. 

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1 minute ago, RapidReload said:

There was an innovative, decent imperial “anti yav list“ at euros that placed well and was later covered by master of the fleet btw.

Please advise because literally every Imperial player on earth wants to know what this looks like.

Also,  and this is genuinely important, aside from Tokra's 8 ship flotilla aces swarm I've never seen an Imp list with the absurd versatility allowed by the current Yav bull****. 

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Guys, before we go off into a tangent about how Yavaris and it's squadrons are broken, and the yes-no back and forth ensues about whether it's impossible to defeat or not, stop and consider what this thread is for.

 

Gink put together a good list of different carriers for the Rebellion and it might be worth lending the discussion more to that point.

 

If we want to use this thread as another pow-wow to discuss Yavaris, let's at least keep it in perspective with other Rebel carriers. Specifically we can also mention why/if other carrier builds listed in Gink's post are as potent as a Yavaris drop.

I know it's my fault for bringing Yavaris' power overwhelming into this, but I think we also can't have a discussion on Rebel fighters and their capital ship handlers without acknolwedging how abnormally powerful Yavaris is to everything else in the game.

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