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Managarmr

People like to complain about Luke Gunner, Fenn Rau and Dash, but

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So a lot of people here complain about

-Luke Gunner, enabling moving your turret with perfect knowledge of all positions. Probably balanced by cost, but still boring, and again a turret moving last.

-Fenn in the Sheathipede, still with Coordinate at Ini6 ....

-Dash, ignoring fundamentals of the game, like all obstacles, while having 4 dice. Altogether though, baring point costs as well, he might be weaker than 1.0.

 

 

Another culprit, which the forums have been really quiet about, is the Grand Inquisitor crew (Empire only, 1 crew clot):

"After an enemy ship at range 0-2 reveals its dial, you may spend 1 force to perform 1 white action on your action bar, treating that action as red. Force: 1+"

That is the same kind of BS. With perfect knowledge of the actual hidden information of your opponent, upon reveal, before opponent is able to move the ship, you can barrel-roll, boost yourself to avoid arc, or coordinate another ship either away. or into the way, blocking out the ship which is trying to move, bereaving it of its action (which is pretty strong in the supposedly action-depleted second edition).

At least it is range restricted, I really had these batlle-scape wide effects.

But still, this is exactly the stuff which made first edition stupid.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

So a lot of people here complain about

-Luke Gunner, enabling moving your turret with perfect knowledge of all positions. Probably balanced by cost, but still boring, and again a turret moving last.

-Fenn in the Sheathipede, still with Coordinate at Ini6 ....

-Dash, ignoring fundamentals of the game, like all obstacles, while having 4 dice. Altogether though, baring point costs as well, he might be weaker than 1.0.

 

 

Another culprit, which the forums have been really quiet about, is the Grand Inquisitor crew (Empire only, 1 crew clot):

"After an enemy ship at range 0-2 reveals its dial, you may spend 1 force to perform 1 white action on your action bar, treating that action as red. Force: 1+"

That is the same kind of BS. With perfect knowledge of the actual hidden information of your opponent, upon reveal, before opponent is able to move the ship, you can barrel-roll, boost yourself to avoid arc, or coordinate another ship either away. or into the way, blocking out the ship which is trying to move, bereaving it of its action (which is pretty strong in the supposedly action-depleted second edition).

At least it is range restricted, I really had these batlle-scape wide effects.

But still, this is exactly the stuff which made first edition stupid.

 

 

Except it's an action and you can counter it with stress for example. 

You can also use range control to deny it.

There is counter play. How do you counter Luke?

Edited by Commander Kaine

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4 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

There is counter play. How do you counter Luke?

Easy.

When your opponent is considering his placement of obstacles, point violently, yell "OMG, what the **** is happening there", and when they turn to look, grab his Luke, rip it up, throw it on the ground, and begin whistling. :ph34r:

"Luke?  What Luke?" ?

<And in case anyone thinks I am serious, please don't mistreat cards, even those as obnoxious as Luke>

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4 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

You counter Luke by killing him, and by realising that by taking him, your opponent has wasted 20 points to NOT be able to double tap you.

:D

Solid advice. Kill the enemy. Now that you put it that way, I think I realize why I keep losing :D Never thought about actually trying to take down his ships... Makes sense

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The Inquisitor doesn’t give you perfect information. He triggers on dial reveal of a nearby ship. At best you can react to an I6 before it moves and performs its actions. Afterwords you are left stressed, requiring a blue maneuver. 

Luke also works while stressed, the Inquisitor does not. If Luke worked like the inquisitor nobody would be complaining. 

Edited by HolySorcerer

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Inquisitor is strong, but the opponent has the ability counter it. If they stress themselves, then next round they cant kturn, etc and it makes their movement for the next round predictable. If they want to keep using inquisitor, they have to keep doing blue maneuvers. Most ships dont have boost AND barrel roll so when planning your dial, account for their inquisitor post maneuvers. If they have a barrel roll, probably not a good idea to land range 1 of them where they roll out of your arc. Keep your arc spread wider. There are counterplays to inquisitor.

Luke is no counterplay. It just points and shoots at anyone it wants with perfect knowledge of board.

Also, Inquisitor is probably going to cost a hefty 15+pts. He is very very strong, but good play can limit his power potential.

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2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

It's the answer.

Luke is a giant waste of points, you counter him by using your points advantage to kill the ship he's riding in.

Amazing game design right there

 

 

Anyway, people already covered how NOT 1.0 the Inquistor crew is (especially considering they nerfed broll, which reduces the blocking potential)

It's a fine card with a bevy of counters, including self-limiting stress that imposes a limitation on the following turn (balancing out the benefit you got the turn you triggered Inquisitor)

Ie, an ACTUAL cost and not just spending a token you get back anyway

Even comparing Inquistor SOLELY to rotate a deci arc (range requirement, still allows opponent repositioning, is an action, stresses etc) reveals just how ****** gunner Luke is 

But we'll probably see Inqy on a Lambda as an alternative to Advanced Sensor coordinate

Edited by ficklegreendice

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7 hours ago, any2cards said:

<And in case anyone thinks I am serious, please don't mistreat cards, even those as obnoxious as Luke>

Maybe the designers were going more for theme. The gunner Luke was kind of obnoxious in the movie as well. 

Edited by Samwise Gamgee

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5 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

Except it's an action and you can counter it with stress for example. 

You can also use range control to deny it.

There is counter play. How do you counter Luke?

He performs poorly when you remove one of his hands. Try that.

But then again, maybe he’s really sitting on a rock somewhere and you just think he’s in your game. 

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6 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I don't think Luke is good design.

I think he's bad design intentionally overpriced into uselessness.

Which given that he's not going to stop existing, is still the best we can hope for.

It seems he is training wheels mode and not priced for tournaments. Made sense after the devs noted this. 

Nearly anything can be balance if the points are right. 

Edited by Pewpewpew BOOM

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1 minute ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

It seems he is training wheels mode and not priced for tournaments. Made sense after the devs noted this. 

Their stated intent was for him to work in thematic games and not to be competitively viable.

I don't like the logic, especially not for the central character of the series (albeit, Luke pilot is fantastic), but I can understand it.

I'd've preferred to see the mechanic not exist, but raging against it is not going to change it.

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23 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Their stated intent was for him to work in thematic games and not to be competitively viable.

I don't like the logic, especially not for the central character of the series (albeit, Luke pilot is fantastic), but I can understand it.

I'd've preferred to see the mechanic not exist, but raging against it is not going to change it.

Nearly anything can be balance if the points are right.  We’ll see. ?

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37 minutes ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

Nearly anything can be balance if the points are right.  We’ll see. ?

I doubt that. But on one thing you are right: we'll see

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7 hours ago, Managarmr said:

So a lot of people here complain about

-Luke Gunner, enabling moving your turret with perfect knowledge of all positions. Probably balanced by cost, but still boring, and again a turret moving last.

-Fenn in the Sheathipede, still with Coordinate at Ini6 ....

-Dash, ignoring fundamentals of the game, like all obstacles, while having 4 dice. Altogether though, baring point costs as well, he might be weaker than 1.0.

 

 

Another culprit, which the forums have been really quiet about, is the Grand Inquisitor crew (Empire only, 1 crew clot):

"After an enemy ship at range 0-2 reveals its dial, you may spend 1 force to perform 1 white action on your action bar, treating that action as red. Force: 1+"

That is the same kind of BS. With perfect knowledge of the actual hidden information of your opponent, upon reveal, before opponent is able to move the ship, you can barrel-roll, boost yourself to avoid arc, or coordinate another ship either away. or into the way, blocking out the ship which is trying to move, bereaving it of its action (which is pretty strong in the supposedly action-depleted second edition).

At least it is range restricted, I really had these batlle-scape wide effects.

But still, this is exactly the stuff which made first edition stupid.

 

 

I think your understanding of the game is a little flawed if you think they are the same... One can be countered many ways one cannot.

It's really about the counterplay, or lack there of that makes Luke stupid.

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1 hour ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

Nearly anything can be balance if the points are right.  We’ll see. ?

Neither being everywhere nor being costed so poorly that you never see play = balanced.

You can't balance bad ideas with point costs, you can only sweep them under the rug.

 

Something like the Inquisitor will be balanced because there is counter-play available regardless of his cost. Unlike a LOT of 1.0, even the odd action-independent modifiers of 2e all have counterplay or limited enough effect (forcus) to not screw people over. Except Luke.

It's good to talk about the Inquisitor crew in this light, though, because I feel he's exactly what a 2e upgrade should be about: a way to bend the inherent limits of the system but not without consequences that force both players to make pointed decisions. I feel just about every other force upgrade does this right, from Kanan now needing a fully-executed white maneuver, to Ezra basically being vet turret gunner OR a forcus, to Vader requiring range AND arc AND allowing an opponent to spend a green token to avoid his damage.

So at least there's a LOT of good in 2e, including Inqy imo. Just hope it's enough

 

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2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

I don't think Luke is good design.

I think he's bad design intentionally overpriced into uselessness.

Which given that he's not going to stop existing, is still the best we can hope for.

Pretty much this, indeed.

I am very sad about the waste of the Luke Skywalker card in the game.

I hope there is another good cheap option for a force user Crew/Gunner that is playable for Rebels at least.

15+ Points for Inquisitor is also pretty hefty as a price.

One thing i have seen for 2.0 is that a lot of upgrades and crew for all factions are extremely expensive compared to 1.0

I mean C-3PO for example was i believe spoiled at 12 points? Double the cost compared to 1.0, with arguably a weaker effect. He is not the only card where this seems to be true.

What is the intent behind this? Have more «naked» ships on the tabletop? Not have an ace meta?

 

Edited by ForceM

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4 minutes ago, ForceM said:

Pretty much this, indeed.

I am very sad about the waste of the Luke Skywalker card in the game.

I hope there is another good cheap option for a force user Crew/Gunner that is playable for Rebels at least.

15+ Points for Inquisitor is also pretty hefty as a price.

One thing i have seen for 2.0 is that a lot of upgrades and crew for all factions are extremely expensive compared to 1.0

I mean C-3PO for example was i believe spoiled at 12 points? Double the cost compared to 1.0, with arguably a weaker effect. He is not the only card where this seems to be true.

What is the intent behind this? Have more «naked» ships on the tabletop? Not have an ace meta?

 

Basically, bringing the game back to being about how you fly rather than what upgrades you have, is a stated intention of the designers.

How well that works... remains to be seen.

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1 hour ago, Icelom said:

I think your understanding of the game is a little flawed if you think they are the same... One can be countered many ways one cannot.

It's really about the counterplay, or lack there of that makes Luke stupid.

It is the idea behind the Grand Inquisitor which I react to.

 

Of course is its immediate effect on the game not as strong as Luke Gunner.

I neither like Intelligence Agent either. Cassain Andor, though, still involves "guessing", or rather actual thinking and decisions, instead of just revealing, and is imho more aceptable. 

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36 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Basically, bringing the game back to being about how you fly rather than what upgrades you have, is a stated intention of the designers.

How well that works... remains to be seen.

There are a few possibilities to what it may lead.

The most probable one is to a pure stat and dicefest like we had early in 1.0 max out durabiliry and firepower.

I think it’s going to be Tie swarms, and probably this time happily also 4X lists since unlike in 1.0 the X-Wing seems competitive to a Swarm. Both lists don’t need overpriced upgrades to work. It will be a blast from the past i think.

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