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Bhelliom

Release day!

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37 minutes ago, Glucose98 said:

Probably cheaper to manufacture since its a standard size (easier to find people who can do it)  Just having more space for text is useful too.  So they must have switched printers on us during this 7 month delay -- new boxes, new sized cards -- different plastic?

The boxes aren’t just smaller, but a different material. They feel heavier duty than the old ones. 

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1 minute ago, Church14 said:

Oh don’t you worry, I’ll be running my new 2x1 Dr. Zoidbergs. I don’t think it is an auto-include, but I need to test it before I render judgement.

 

 

Alternatively: The new 2x1 Crablante looks like it could actually hurt Saitama. 

I dunno... at 3 points my stapler is looking like its going to get a lot of use

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10 minutes ago, Panzerninja said:

I dunno... at 3 points my stapler is looking like its going to get a lot of use

In general, it probably will be. An exhaust to give my opponent a stun seems worth 3. The shift has a lot of corner uses, but none are ones you can bank on.

 

Dogding charges: Sure, sometimes. But a lot of the time your opponent can aim their charge for the centerline of your 2x1 and you can’t shift out. 

Shift to prevent incoming flank charges: Yes. This is probably the primary use. Either by making it a charge to your front or by jamming into them and making the charge a bust.

Shift away from a flank, forcing a charge or making an melee whiff: this would be awesome if this card wasn’t already your primary way of avoiding being flanked in the first place. The existence of this card makes this card’s use case niche. 

Shift from behind terrain: It was your fault you were there in the first place. Though this is an interesting corner case to prevent incoming charges and then prep for you own on the next turn. 

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20 minutes ago, Panzerninja said:

I dunno... at 3 points my stapler is looking like its going to get a lot of use

It’s game changing when you play it, stapled on 2x1s even if it was 7 points. 

Edited by Drakoniss
Grammar

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16 minutes ago, Church14 said:

In general, it probably will be. An exhaust to give my opponent a stun seems worth 3. The shift has a lot of corner uses, but none are ones you can bank on.

 

Dogding charges: Sure, sometimes. But a lot of the time your opponent can aim their charge for the centerline of your 2x1 and you can’t shift out. 

Shift to prevent incoming flank charges: Yes. This is probably the primary use. Either by making it a charge to your front or by jamming into them and making the charge a bust.

Shift away from a flank, forcing a charge or making an melee whiff: this would be awesome if this card wasn’t already your primary way of avoiding being flanked in the first place. The existence of this card makes this card’s use case niche. 

Shift from behind terrain: It was your fault you were there in the first place. Though this is an interesting corner case to prevent incoming charges and then prep for you own on the next turn. 

Shifting out of terrain and then charging also seems pretty good as demonstrated by Flesh Rippers flanks. Sure it can be telegraphed to your opponent, but it can be difficult to deal with it.

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22 minutes ago, Panzerninja said:

Shifting out of terrain and then charging also seems pretty good as demonstrated by Flesh Rippers flanks. Sure it can be telegraphed to your opponent, but it can be difficult to deal with it.

Derp. Forgot that one. Yeah, that’s good. Though the reason Rippers are so good for it is that they can launch into basically every piece of terrain on the board on turn 1 and charge turn 2. The Threshers will probably get there turn 2 and charge on 3. Certainly no slouch, but your opponents will see it coming and at least have the chance at responding/adapting more easily. 

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1 hour ago, Panzerninja said:

Shifting out of terrain and then charging also seems pretty good as demonstrated by Flesh Rippers flanks. Sure it can be telegraphed to your opponent, but it can be difficult to deal with it.

Ah ****, now two uthuk units can do that...so free move and reform by scuttling through obstacles?

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Another small option, is you can turn one of your head-on charges into a flanking charge (scuttle -> charge with turn modifier -> square up on flank). Is it going to happen every time? of course not.

But when you do you have 3 red dice with a possible reroll and brutal 3? Yikes.

So yeah all of these niche cases individually do not sound amazing, but combined with the stun makes this card (IMO) an almost insta include on the 2x1 blocks.

Edited by Panzerninja

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2 hours ago, Church14 said:

Oh don’t you worry, I’ll be running my new 2x1 Dr. Zoidbergs. I don’t think it is an auto-include, but I need to test it before I render judgement.

 

 

Alternatively: The new 2x1 Crablante looks like it could actually hurt Saitama. 

Not an auto-include... but only because they are already really good without it.  That said, I think we'll be seeing this upgrade a lot on Spined Threshers.  Anyone regularly paying for wind runes knows how valuable mobility can be, especially in a unit whose only weakness seams to be that they don't move laterally very well and can reasonably be flanked.  What really burns me about this upgrade is that it is only 3 points.  Scions have to pay 3 points for an immobilize token (vicious roots), and they have to discard the upgrade when they use it... and that upgrade is very good and often run.  Threshers get an exhausting stun token AND free side to side mobility that can potentially be used to disengage from a flank... for 3 points...

Also worth noting that devouring maws ALSO looks to be quite playable at 3 points.  A very good, under-costed unit with two good choices for unique upgrades... 

As I'm sure you can tell, I'm bitter...

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57 minutes ago, QuickWhit said:

Not an auto-include... but only because they are already really good without it.  That said, I think we'll be seeing this upgrade a lot on Spined Threshers.  Anyone regularly paying for wind runes knows how valuable mobility can be, especially in a unit whose only weakness seams to be that they don't move laterally very well and can reasonably be flanked.  What really burns me about this upgrade is that it is only 3 points.  Scions have to pay 3 points for an immobilize token (vicious roots), and they have to discard the upgrade when they use it... and that upgrade is very good and often run.  Threshers get an exhausting stun token AND free side to side mobility that can potentially be used to disengage from a flank... for 3 points...

Also worth noting that devouring maws ALSO looks to be quite playable at 3 points.  A very good, under-costed unit with two good choices for unique upgrades... 

As I'm sure you can tell, I'm bitter...

We also have just now seen Threshers’ peak strength. 

- The single tray is strong, but has no upgrade slots

- The 2x1 is stronger, but only gets a unique. We now see the peak strength it will likely get. 

- The 2x2 isn’t very efficient (relatively). Yes, rerolls and HP, but the panic reroll makes this size less aignificant. The champion slot will have Ravos (who isn’t great as a figure) and Gorgemaw (an unknown)

- The 3x2 gets Equipment and more threat. As of right now though, no equipment really stands out. Maybe Shield Wall. This is the only variant that stands to gain much from later releases. It’s also appropriately expensive.

 

So it looks bad, but no known or theoretical/likely Uthuk releases look to make it any stronger. 

 

Look on at the Scion you compared it against. A good comparison. It gets early access to banners, which will continue to provide more options as the game grows. It already gets more out of equipment and will continue to get more than the Threshers do.  It’s uniques are weirdly similar to the threshers. Both get healing (after attack vs green runes) and both get the ability to inflict a bane (post melee vs post either). 

 

Sure thresher is stronger, but isn’t likely to gain significant strength in the future. The Scion absolutely will get stronger. 

Edited by Church14

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1 hour ago, Church14 said:

We also have just now seen Threshers’ peak strength. 

- The single tray is strong, but has no upgrade slots

- The 2x1 is stronger, but only gets a unique. We now see the peak strength it will likely get. 

- The 2x2 isn’t very efficient (relatively). Yes, rerolls and HP, but the panic reroll makes this size less aignificant. The champion slot will have Ravos (who isn’t great as a figure) and Gorgemaw (an unknown)

- The 3x2 gets Equipment and more threat. As of right now though, no equipment really stands out. Maybe Shield Wall. This is the only variant that stands to gain much from later releases. It’s also appropriately expensive.

 

So it looks bad, but no known or theoretical/likely Uthuk releases look to make it any stronger. 

 

Look on at the Scion you compared it against. A good comparison. It gets early access to banners, which will continue to provide more options as the game grows. It already gets more out of equipment and will continue to get more than the Threshers do.  It’s uniques are weirdly similar to the threshers. Both get healing (after attack vs green runes) and both get the ability to inflict a bane (post melee vs post either). 

 

Sure thresher is stronger, but isn’t likely to gain significant strength in the future. The Scion absolutely will get stronger. 

This is a good point and I hope it proves true in the long run... but today I am bitter for all the units that don't have two good low cost unique upgrades.  I mean, wraiths have to pay 3 points for undying hate and Threshers get two much better options for the same price?

Regarding the 3x2 of spined threshers with the equipment slot though, my local Uthuk player has run them a few times with wind runes and they are a absolute terror!  Hard to stay away from, beefy as ****, and they hit consistently hard. 

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24 minutes ago, QuickWhit said:

This is a good point and I hope it proves true in the long run... but today I am bitter for all the units that don't have two good low cost unique upgrades.  I mean, wraiths have to pay 3 points for undying hate and Threshers get two much better options for the same price?

Regarding the 3x2 of spined threshers with the equipment slot though, my local Uthuk player has run them a few times with wind runes and they are a absolute terror!  Hard to stay away from, beefy as ****, and they hit consistently hard. 

It is also possible that I am just wrong. But I get more and more the impression that these armies weren’t balanced with just the editing units in mind. I think they were balanced with the new heroes and the 5 unit for each faction. So I feel like some upgrades are coming that help. 

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41 minutes ago, Church14 said:

It is also possible that I am just wrong. But I get more and more the impression that these armies weren’t balanced with just the editing units in mind. I think they were balanced with the new heroes and the 5 unit for each faction. So I feel like some upgrades are coming that help. 

Yet again, hoping you are correct here.  In any event, I would really like to see some balancing/tweaking in the future.  Certainly I don't necessarily believe every faction should have the same features for the same price, and variety is good for the game.  However, I do become disappointed when so many cool, flavorful upgrades just get left in the box because they turn out to be over-costed and under-powered.

I really would like to see them push towards a more dynamic solution like they are going towards with X-Wing 2nd ed.  For those who are unaware, they are going to have an official squad building app for their lists, allowing FFG to make balancing tweaks to the game, including points changes to units and upgrades, and what upgrades are available on what ships.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2018/5/1/x-wing-second-edition/

If FFG goes this direction with RuneWars, they could reasonably tune up older upgrades that don't see play by either lowering the cost or even changing the way the function. They could even do things like provide Rune Golems with a unique upgrade slot and then giving it a nicely costed upgrade that brings up it's power level or give's it a niche use. 

Just imagine pulling up your FFG official Tabletop Admiral-like app on your phone and seeing a balance patch just came out giving a cost reduction to Fertile Soil, a unique upgrade slot for Rune Golems, and a rework of the way Reckless Geomancer works... how excited would you get to start trying some new builds and see if they work?

Plausible?...

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1 hour ago, QuickWhit said:

Just imagine pulling up your FFG official Tabletop Admiral-like app on your phone and seeing a balance patch just came out giving a cost reduction to Fertile Soil, a unique upgrade slot for Rune Golems, and a rework of the way Reckless Geomancer works... how excited would you get to start trying some new builds and see if they work?

Plausible?...

Live patching is cool and good, but what's wrong with Uncontrolled Geomancer?

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Honestly?  That the one unit that would work with it (Rune Golems) isn't very good. 

I do think that both Uncontrolled Geomancer AND Rune Golems would be more playable if it just didn't hurt its own unit.  The Geomancer gets better because it doesn't have to worry about cutting itself in half from just using the skill twice and the Rune Golems get better because they just complement the unit so much better than any other unit besides heroes.

All that said, does anyone have any anecdotes about Uncontrolled Geomancer and how it was in fact good?  I'm happy to be proven wrong...

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3 hours ago, QuickWhit said:

Honestly?  That the one unit that would work with it (Rune Golems) isn't very good. 

I do think that both Uncontrolled Geomancer AND Rune Golems would be more playable if it just didn't hurt its own unit.  The Geomancer gets better because it doesn't have to worry about cutting itself in half from just using the skill twice and the Rune Golems get better because they just complement the unit so much better than any other unit besides heroes.

All that said, does anyone have any anecdotes about Uncontrolled Geomancer and how it was in fact good?  I'm happy to be proven wrong...

It's a matchup call. If it triggers even once against a 3x3 or 4x3 enemy, never mind a couple of them, then it's completely worth the cost of the upgrade. If big blocks of infantry are ever truly in style, I really believe we'll see geomancers. 

Might work well with scouts, too.

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16 hours ago, Church14 said:

It is also possible that I am just wrong. But I get more and more the impression that these armies weren’t balanced with just the editing units in mind. I think they were balanced with the new heroes and the 5 unit for each faction. So I feel like some upgrades are coming that help. 

I would also be surprised if the 3 heroes and 5 units weren't more or less done at launch. BUT, shouldn't that mean that Waiqar and Daqan were dominating at this point since they have more of their arsenal available?

Latari took the gold, silver and bronze in worlds 2017, and I don't think anyone would bet against Uthuk dominating nationals 2018 with Latari getting a few spots in top 8. So what is happening? What are likely to be revealed now that balances all factions up to Uthuk's power level in a "natural" way? If your answer is Lord Vorun'thul for example, then I ask: what about Ardus and Ankaur? Maybe the 6th unit is "fixing" them, or the 8th?

I would guess that some design changes were made somewhere in the middle, after the basic playtesting, that has screwed things up. There was a rumor that there actually was a substitution in the design team, but I have no idea if that is true, but either that or "management interfearance" looks plausible to me.

Edited by Maktorius

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6 hours ago, Bhelliom said:

It's a matchup call. If it triggers even once against a 3x3 or 4x3 enemy, never mind a couple of them, then it's completely worth the cost of the upgrade. If big blocks of infantry are ever truly in style, I really believe we'll see geomancers. 

Might work well with scouts, too.

Definitely see your point here but I just don't see this as ever happening. Large units have too many drawbacks. They can be hard counter by terrain, objectives, morale tests, blight, and just getting out-flanked... 

Even if they did become popular I don't think the geomancer would be the go to counter for them, especially when Daqan can build what is probably the best big unit in the game (spearstar) and then not have to rely on red runes and golems.

But who knows... maybe I'll try out a geomancer list with Baron Zac and 3 golems and see if it does anything...

Edited by QuickWhit
Grammar

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53 minutes ago, Maktorius said:

What are likely to be revealed now that balances all factions up to Uthuk's power level in a "natural" way? If your answer is Lord Vorun'thul for example, then I ask: what about Ardus and Ankaur? Maybe the 6th unit is "fixing" them, or the 8th?

I'm starting to come to the conclusion that Ardus and 3x1's of wraiths with raven tabards MIGHT actually be the answer (as I note in another thread).  May need a good unique upgrade to push it over the top though...

There was also a recent regionals result posted that had 2nd and 3rd place Waiqar armies both running Maro with 2x1 spined threshers. If you can't beat them, join them?

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1 hour ago, Maktorius said:

I would also be surprised if the 3 heroes and 5 units weren't more or less done at launch. BUT, shouldn't that mean that Waiqar and Daqan were dominating at this point since they have more of their arsenal available?

Or... maybe you're wrong that they were all designed at launch?

Quote

 There was a rumor that there actually was a substitution in the design team, but I have no idea if that is true, but either that or "management interfearance" looks plausible to me.

You can always look at the credits. Some of the design team has changed.

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14 hours ago, Maktorius said:

I would also be surprised if the 3 heroes and 5 units weren't more or less done at launch. BUT, shouldn't that mean that Waiqar and Daqan were dominating at this point since they have more of their arsenal available?

That's a really good point. I'm of the opinion that Daqan and Waiqar aren't dominating precisely because they were the first faction out. Many who now play Latari and Uthuk have been in the game long enough to have played the Waiqar-Daqan meta, and know those units well. Sure, they got some new, cool units, but many of the dials and strategies are known. When Latari came out, it was a huge unknown for people who didn't pick up that box. I think we're still having growing pains as we adjust to the play style of the new factions, especially the Uthuk Y'llan. They may be stronger, but I'm hesitant to use the word "overpowered," as some have started to cry.

13 hours ago, QuickWhit said:

There was also a recent regionals result posted that had 2nd and 3rd place Waiqar armies both running Maro with 2x1 spined threshers. If you can't beat them, join them?

Yeah, the key there is that the Spined Threshers are cheap, allowing for decent sized groups of Death Knights and Carrion Lancers along with Ankaur Maro. The 3-defense units are strong against Uthuk, as well as Ankaur Maro's ranged attack against Uthuk's low defense. These allow for close losses against Uthuk to out-pace other armies. So it just loses less-badly.

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I wasn't able to pick up a Flesh Rippers Unit Expansion because someone bought 7 boxes at my not-so-local friendly game store. Could someone fill me in on what the final training upgrade was? I believe they have Moment of Inspiration and Flank Guards, but what about the third training upgrade? I need to update the wiki.

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