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NukeMaster

Are you revealing your command hands?

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As there are restrictions as to how many of each pip total you can have in your army list, I agree the cards you selected are public information. Otherwise, how can your opponent double check your selection prior to the game? 

Additionally, the tournament army list includes an area for each player to fill out their respective Command Cards, and in most games a copy of your list is provided to your opponent, so I presume it isn't secret information. 

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53 minutes ago, NukeMaster said:

I haven't seen an official ruling, so I was wondering what the community is doing. When you play with multiple commanders do you reveal what command cards you have chosen to your opponent?

I seem to remember hearing somewhere that command hands were secret information... but now I can't find it!

8 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

As there are restrictions as to how many of each pip total you can have in your army list, I agree the cards you selected are public information. Otherwise, how can your opponent double check your selection prior to the game? 

Additionally, the tournament army list includes an area for each player to fill out their respective Command Cards, and in most games a copy of your list is provided to your opponent, so I presume it isn't secret information. 

The tournament army list answers your concerns about the first question (and besides... it should be pretty obvious when someone plays their third card of a given pip). I don't know if the fact that many players do provide the tournament army list to their opponent in many FFG games means that the tournament army list is officially public information. Destiny deck lists are secret information (I believe, I don't actually play).

Officially, your list is presented as the physical unit cards and upgrade cards (which is why they're required for tournament play).

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34 minutes ago, WAC47 said:

I seem to remember hearing somewhere that command hands were secret information... but now I can't find it!

The tournament army list answers your concerns about the first question (and besides... it should be pretty obvious when someone plays their third card of a given pip). I don't know if the fact that many players do provide the tournament army list to their opponent in many FFG games means that the tournament army list is officially public information. Destiny deck lists are secret information (I believe, I don't actually play).

Officially, your list is presented as the physical unit cards and upgrade cards (which is why they're required for tournament play).

If Destiny plays like MTG tournaments, you have to register your decklist, but do not have to tell your opponent. Then the judges can do spot checks to make sure you didn't change the contents of your deck in between opponents. Which I suppose could be the case in Legion as well. Also, just because it SHOULD be obvious, doesn't mean it will be, especially in a casual game where breaks might have been taken between rounds. If it happens, the rules do account for it, just swap the command card for "Standing Orders." 

I contend the cards are required because they contain rules on them, not just for listing purposes. Well, that and then FFG ensures their products are purchased to obtain the cards ?.

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So it would be interesting to know if Command Hands are open information, but I'm actually more interested in if the setup cards are. Right now it doesn't matter, but as more missions, conditions and deployment cards are introduced and presumably more that can favor certain builds or styles if play, will you have access to that info when determining Blue player?

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1 hour ago, MasterShake2 said:

So it would be interesting to know if Command Hands are open information, but I'm actually more interested in if the setup cards are. Right now it doesn't matter, but as more missions, conditions and deployment cards are introduced and presumably more that can favor certain builds or styles if play, will you have access to that info when determining Blue player?

I'm not able to look at the RRG right now, but isn't the Blue Player decided in the points bid? Or is the winner of the points bid the person who gets to decide who will be the Blue Player?

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On 6/13/2018 at 11:26 AM, WAC47 said:

I seem to remember hearing somewhere that command hands were secret information... but now I can't find it!

The only thing I can think here is that the Command Deck in IA is secret info.  

But I think in Legion it should be public.

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So their contents at the start of the game is known,

but as soon as the game starts  the cards themselves are hidden from that point on, until revealed via resolution...
 

 

...  I mean, if you could check an opponents hand at any time, stating that its "open", you'd just wait until they play their card and then "check" it...  So you know...

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2 hours ago, Orkimedes said:

It’s explicitly part of your army list and even has its own section on the FFG provided army roster.  I don’t really see how you could make the case for it to be private.

Well, in Armada your objectives are part of the list. But they are private until player order has been determined. Even then, I think first player’s stay private.

One way we can treat this is that everything is private until such time as it becomes revealed. This is basically what Armada does (ships and squads are public from the beginning when you are instructed to place them on the table; objective cards become public when second player is required to reveal them to first player).

So in Legion’s case, units and upgrades are public from the beginning because you’re required to place them on the table. Objectives become public when blue player is required to discard 1 from each and reveal the remaining 3. And command hand stays private since none of the steps reveal them?

What do you guys think of that?

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1 hour ago, LordAdmiralAndy said:

Even if there public at the start of the game, during the play of the game I would say no. Otherwise when you've slected your order and put it face down, well opponent checks discarded command cards, then your open command cards and by process of elimnation knows what your playing.

If you reveal your command hands at the beginning a good opponent will be keeping track of your discarded command cards in his head. 

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39 minutes ago, NukeMaster said:

If you reveal your command hands at the beginning a good opponent will be keeping track of your discarded command cards in his head. 

Thats true, but they wouldn't know the actual command card you've played that round is. Yes they can probably make a good guess, but the game will still be playing under the fog of war and a guess is not the same as being sure.

 

But a good opponent can do that anyway if you roll up with 7 command cards and only playing 1 hq leader they will know what the cards are anyway even if not shown them. As an additional question to the opening post are discarded command cards displayed open or left face down in there discard pile. The more someone has to remember the more they may forget or get it wrong, which adds to the friction of the game.

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Hmm, it actually doesn’t look like there is anything in the RRG or tournament regulations that requires you to share your army list (which would include your command cards) with your opponent.  The only thing you are required to do during setup is place your units and cards on the side of the table.

I think I am porting something over from 40k etiquette, where the first thing you do after shaking hands and introducing yourself is pass an extra copy of your army list to your opponent.

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36 minutes ago, Orkimedes said:

I think I am porting something over from 40k etiquette, where the first thing you do after shaking hands and introducing yourself is pass an extra copy of your army list to your opponent.

WH40k isn't unique in that behavior, I know from experience that Bolt Action tournaments work the same way. It's basically a "trust but verify" sort of thing, the TOs trust that you won't change your army list between rounds, and your opponent verifies. 

1 hour ago, LordAdmiralAndy said:

But a good opponent can do that anyway if you roll up with 7 command cards and only playing 1 hq leader they will know what the cards are anyway even if not shown them. As an additional question to the opening post are discarded command cards displayed open or left face down in there discard pile. The more someone has to remember the more they may forget or get it wrong, which adds to the friction of the game.

If the initial hands aren't known, then the discard should be to ensure honesty. Otherwise, how can you be sure your opponent didn't play three one-pip cards if you can't look to confirm? Some small slight of hand can change the hidden discard pile if you force your opponent to reveal it (not easy, but possible). The fact that having only one commander means your opponent knows exactly what cards are in your hand is what inclines me towards sharing the initial composition. Operatives in a two commanders list will only obfuscate it further.

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13 hours ago, Orkimedes said:

Hmm, it actually doesn’t look like there is anything in the RRG or tournament regulations that requires you to share your army list (which would include your command cards) with your opponent.  The only thing you are required to do during setup is place your units and cards on the side of the table.

I think I am porting something over from 40k etiquette, where the first thing you do after shaking hands and introducing yourself is pass an extra copy of your army list to your opponent.

Funny, I did exactly that at the first Legion tournament I participated in, and I had a copy for the TO. Both looked at me like I was crazy. 

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Until the rules say I'm supposed to share my battlefield deck and command cards, it's going to stay hidden. Armada tournaments have objectives hidden, but after the first round word gets out about who has what objectives/bids/fleets. If someone expects me to share my command hand when I'm running Luke and Leia, and then my future opponents find out I'm not running SoS, they will be biased and may play in a manner they normally would not because Luke can't attack twice. Keeping my command hand mostly secret allows me to retain some strategic advantage throughout the tournament/league. 

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5 hours ago, kac said:

Funny, I did exactly that at the first Legion tournament I participated in, and I had a copy for the TO. Both looked at me like I was crazy. 

Yeah, I've been in the habit of doing that.  Now I know why I get funny looks when I do.

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On 6/16/2018 at 1:52 PM, Orkimedes said:

It’s explicitly part of your army list and even has its own section on the FFG provided army roster.  I don’t really see how you could make the case for it to be private.

Because someone, somewhere, will argue that the sun revolves around the earth if it would give them an advantage.

And they won’t believe otherwise until it’s in the errata and the FAQ.

 

TR pg. 4: “Some events require a player to submit an army list, including his or her name and all units, associated upgrade cards, total army points, and command cards to the organizer before the start of the tournament.”

So, not every tourney requires a list in advance, although the apparent purpose is so that leaders can fact check players to decide if they’re cheating. 

Edited by Derrault

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