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Sooooooo how do you destroy a dark side vergence?

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At least in the existing lore, I don't think you actually can.

As a for instance, the Jedi Temple on Coruscant was apparently built upon a dark side vergence, and if the Jedi Order with thousands of years of study and understanding of the Force couldn't wipe out a dark side vergence, odds are slim that a group of rag-tag Force users with patchwork knowledge of the Force are going to be able to fully accomplish it baring some truly extraordinary (and likely unique) circumstances.

Now, if the vergence is based around a particular object, such as the tomb of a long-buried Sith Lord (Freedon Nadd on Dxun in Legends), then it might be possible to cleanse a dark side vergence by getting rid of the focal point of that vergence.  But even that's probably not a guarantee, and it might take years if not decades for the taint to be fully cleansed if the object's been in that location for any substantial length of time.

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I don't believe it can be done in-canon. It seems the Jedi did what some IRL religions did and built their temples atop the temples of their enemies. The Coruscant temple was built above a Sith shrine and on Ach-To, the supposed first Jedi temple was built above a dark side cave.

 

I think in-universe, having both extremes adjacent to one another forms some sort of balance. Or at least that's what the Jedi thought.

 

*edit*

 

For my games, I might do something like allow it to be cleansed of the dark side or something, but because it is a place powerful in the Force, it makes sense that it wouldn't be destroyed without destroying the landscape.

Edited by GroggyGolem

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I would homebrew some Force power that allows someone to purge vergences of their current alignment (to either cleanse or corrupt, based on what color pips are used).    I would have it be some kind of extended action, requiring a LOT of pips, and lots of Discipline rolls.

Rough outline for the power:

Base power allows a Force user to spend pips to shift the power scale of a Vergence by 1 degree, either positive or negative.  The number of pips needed is determined by the base rank of the Vergence used as a multiplier (ex: a lvl 5 Vergence would require at least 5 pips to shift down to lvl 4, to shift from 4 to 3, it will still take 5 pips, as that was the initial rank when the action was started)

Each use of the Force will require a Discipline check, at a difficulty based on the power level of the Vergence.  So a lvl 5 would be a 5 dice difficulty check, which would make sense, if you are trying to purge an incredibly powerful well of dark side energy, this isn't a cakewalk.  If the check is passed, then the pips can be spent towards the current total needed to reduce the power level of the vergence.   

Upgrades to the Force power, and their shouldn't be a lot, the fact that the power exists at all is strong enough, but a few upgrades would be fine.  For example, an upgrade (20xp cost), to allow a Force user to commit their Force die to the check, to allow a baseline amount of pips to be accumulated each attempt.   For each die committed, one pip of their color choice, will go towards the total.  This prevents them from rolling double pips, but it also prevents them from coming up blank on the roll too.  They still have to succeed at the Discipline check, as the vergence fights them in a bid of self-preservation, with visions and nightmares and ghosts, and possible actual physical harm too.  The Discipline check is to see if the Force user has the focus to ignore that distractions, and focus their power into the cleansing.

Another upgrade might be along the lines of forcibly taking Wound damage, to increase the number of pips you can spend per dice roll, literally tearing yourself apart to try and fuel the ritual.  Though that could get weird, given how these mechanics work.  Or, perhaps have each use of this power require a strain cost, and have upgrades reduce the strain cost, per ranks in the upgrade.  An upgrade that might not be needed for a weak Vergence, but for more powerful ones, the length of time needed to purge the site might be more than your typical Strain Threshold could manage.

That's roughly how I would do it.  It might be better to make the number of pips higher than my example, depending on the force rating of the person in question, and I would state that the person doing the cleansing has to take a full round action to do this.  They cannot defend themselves from attack, cannot move, or anything.  They are locked in a test of wills with the very Force itself, and battling the manifestation of one of the cosmic building blocks of the Universe, trying to banish it from this nexus point.  That's not the kind of activity that lends itself to fighting and moving.

The rest of the party however, is more than free to try and defend their ally from whatever things the Vergence calls to itself for defense (Dark tainted beasts for example, enthralled to the Vergence), or other parties that have a vested interest in the Vergence staying as it is.   And all the normal factors for being in a Vergence would still apply, for example, dealing with Fear checks, and any penalties as a result of those checks, alterations to how the Force die work, etc etc.  

Oh, I would also have the final result, be a lvl 1 Vergence of the opposite type.  So, if you purged a lvl 5 Dark Vergence, it would end as a lvl 1 Light Vergence.  Small, but still important and powerful, and the players could focus on trying to nurture it into something stronger.  

And ALL of this btw, should probably be a campaign in itself.  The search for the power itself, even just learning of it's existence, locating someone/something to teach it to the party, learning it (should be hard itself), and then actually dealing with the ritual.

If you play this right, it could be the culmination of a long arcing story, with a really badarse finale and climax.   

 

That's  my 2 cents on it anyway.

Edited by KungFuFerret

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I honestly believe that building a Force power whose sole purpose is to cleanse/remove dark side vergences pretty much trivializes the whole existence of a dark side vergence, and begins reducing the Force to simply another flavor of magic, which was a MAJOR issue the 90's books had, with the lazier authors simply treating the Force as "space magic" and using it to solve whatever plot corner they'd written themselves into.  After all, what's the threat of being in one if a PC simply has to roll a couple of Force dice and presto-chango the dark side taint is removed?

If removing the taint of the dark side from a vergence (making it a neutral vergence at best) would even be possible in the first place, it should be a lengthy and involved process, one that is the scope of an entire adventure, if not an entire story arc, one that likely involves the usage of several different Force powers along the way.

Wiping the area out (i.e. salt and burn the ground) probably isn't going to do much to remove the dark side vergence; if anything such destructive actions might well only serve to make it even stronger.

Of course, if you do choose to open the door to say a dark side vergence can be cleansed, then that means that a light side or neutral vergence can be corrupted by the dark side; if anything it'd probably be a lot easier to corrupt an existing vergence to the dark side than to create a brand new dark side vergence, be it through Sith sorcery or various profane acts that will quite likely push one's campaign into a hard R rating.

But in the end, it shouldn't be as trivial a matter as casting a consecrate spell in D&D and suddenly poof!, the land is cleansed of corruption.

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My .02 credits.

The force seeks balance and vergences emerge when the force is out of balance.  Anakin was apparently conceived by the force when Plagius attempted to bring something to life with the dark side.  Rey gained her power because Luke cut himself off from the force thus unbalancing things against Snoke.  By purging a vergence, a new one will just pop up somewhere else, perhaps even worse than the last.  Alternatively a good vergence may get snuffed out as well.

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1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

I honestly believe that building a Force power whose sole purpose is to cleanse/remove dark side vergences pretty much trivializes the whole existence of a dark side vergence, and begins reducing the Force to simply another flavor of magic, which was a MAJOR issue the 90's books had, with the lazier authors simply treating the Force as "space magic" and using it to solve whatever plot corner they'd written themselves into.  

Except it very much IS magic.  Every aspect of how it works mechanically in storytelling is indistinguishable from magic.  We can color it up as a "Force", but magic is a force too.   And as to people coming up with new uses for the Force to solve their plot developments, well that's hardly unique to the material from the 90's.  Pretty much all of the movies have introduced new stuff, from the OT, to the PT, to the new trilogy.  So if that's a flaw with how the Force is portrayed, then everyone associated with every aspect of the franchise is guilty of it.

1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

After all, what's the threat of being in one if a PC simply has to roll a couple of Force dice and presto-chango the dark side taint is removed?

*Looks at the parts in his post where he specifically refers to being under threat by the Vergence itself, possible other groups that have a vested interest in the Vergence and want to stop the purge, and the mental danger of the ritual itself* .....yeah, so did you just miss those parts, or are you just being intentionally obtuse?   Because if you think there isn't any threat in being the focal point of a ritual, at the Heart of Darkness, while the Minions of Evil are converging on you to kill you, then I don't know what mystic/dramatic stories you've been consuming for the past several decades, but clearly they are different from mine.  

As to the "roll a couple of Force die", again, did you not read where I said it should be a cumulative roll, that is very hard, and will be further made difficult by the nature of the Vergence itself?   Besides, this game runs on dice rolls.  To criticize using dice in this type of dramatic climax, but not saying the same for pretty much every other way that dice are employed for mechanical effect in this system, seems a bit unfair.   

1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

If removing the taint of the dark side from a vergence (making it a neutral vergence at best) would even be possible in the first place, it should be a lengthy and involved process, one that is the scope of an entire adventure, if not an entire story arc, one that likely involves the usage of several different Force powers along the way.

Again, did you just not read my post?  Because I said EXACTLY that.  

1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Of course, if you do choose to open the door to say a dark side vergence can be cleansed

Seeing as that's what the OP wants to do, this seems to be implied yes.

1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Of course, if you do choose to open the door to say a dark side vergence can be cleansed, then that means that a light side or neutral vergence can be corrupted by the dark side; if anything it'd probably be a lot easier to corrupt an existing vergence to the dark side than to create a brand new dark side vergence, be it through Sith sorcery or various profane acts that will quite likely push one's campaign into a hard R rating.

But in the end, it shouldn't be as trivial a matter as casting a consecrate spell in D&D and suddenly poof!, the land is cleansed of corruption.

Yep, which is why I described the force power as working both ways.

1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

But in the end, it shouldn't be as trivial a matter as casting a consecrate spell in D&D and suddenly poof!, the land is cleansed of corruption.

Good thing what I described wasn't just casting consecrate and poof, even though you seem to think that's what it amounts to.

Edited by KungFuFerret

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4 hours ago, GroggyGolem said:

I don't disagree with you at all

 

but characters in the movies actually call the Force a magical power and really, in a lot of ways, they're not wrong.

There's a difference between "magical" as in something that is unknown and difficult to fully comprehend, and and "magical" as in something that works a specific and understandable way.  Rey's answer to Luke's question about what is the Force is a prime example of someone viewing the Force as just the later, a series of rote effects, where the Jedi (at least before the Clone Wars) generally understood the Force to be something much greater and thus not so easy to comprehend or categorize.

Granted, an RPG by its general nature has to lean more towards the second for the sake of ever-elusive game balance, though at least FFG's efforts aren't quite as hard-coded into the "Force powers as strictly codified spells" mindset as WEG and WotC's efforts were

The problem I see with creating a specific Force power whose primary function is to cleanse the taint of the dark side is that even if you add several steps to the process or make it convoluted, it boils down to reducing a story element to nothing more than a rote game mechanic, one that PCs who have invested precious XP (and for F&D characters, XP is very precious) are going to want to use as often as they can.  Maybe not to the extent of "I have a hammer, so every problem looks like a nail," but building a specific Force power for something that the GM is intending to be a one-off event is not only disingenuous on the GM's part since they're effectively forcing the player to waste precious XP on something that's only meant for a single use, but also creates the issue of the player wanting to go around seeking out dark side vergences and cleansing them simply so that the XP they've invested in the power is put to good use, and eventually making the getting rid of a dark side vergence (which is generally meant to be a pretty notable thing just by existing) a trivial matter to the group; after all, what's the big whoop about cleansing yet another vergence of the dark side when you've already cleansed a couple dozen?

Getting rid of a dark side vergence is not unlike getting rid of a cursed artifact in a D&D game; it's not something that players should be able to do as a matter of routine, simply following a previously established formula to get the desired result.  It's the sort of thing that should be a whole story build around, a once-in-a-lifetime event for the characters that the players will remember long after the campaign has ended.  Saying one needs to purchase a specific Force power whose sole purpose is cleansing the dark side (an event that as has been noted hasn't ever happened in Star Wars lore) begins the process of making such an event trivial, even if it's not meant that way.  And as I said in the paragraph above, either GM is cheating the PCs out of XP by requiring them to purchase an effect they have no intent of letting the PCs employ outside of a specific story arc, or they run the very high risk of making what should be the momentous climax of a story arc into a ho-hum event.  Consider the original Ghostbusters movie, where after a while the guys have taken to viewing what to most would be a very exciting opportunity as just another humdrum day at the office by the time Winston Zeddemore joins up.

A good Force and Destiny game should treat the Force as something that is mysterious, that is beyond the full comprehension of mortal beings, of which the wisest and most knowledgeable of masters admit to not fully understanding, and are comfortable with the knowledge that they don't know everything about the Force (something the Jedi Order as a whole had forgotten by the time the Clone Wars rolled around).

Plus, it undercuts one of the major elements of the dark side, in that it's always there, and like the concept of evil itself can never truly be dismissed or banished, but rather held at bay.  In the Season 6 material for Clone Wars, Yoda had a whole story arc about coming to accept this very fact, that his own darkness was always present and always would be, a lesson that Luke imparted to Rey in TLJ so that she wouldn't see the Force as just a simple matter of light and dark that were easily divisible into separate categories, but that light and dark were both part of a greater whole.  The dark side becomes much less of a lingering threat if one or more PCs has a mechanically-driven ability to just banish it away.

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4 hours ago, Daeglan said:

The other thing is if a dark side vergence could be destroyed why didnt the one at the basenof the jedi temple get destroyed? Allowing it kinda creates a logic flaw in the universe.

Good point.

While I get that the PCs of the campaign are the stars, and do have a certain license to accomplish things that no-name extras of the galaxy couldn't hope to pull off.

But there's a point where they cease to simply be the stars of the campaign and cross over into special snowflake syndrome, easily accomplishing things that even the most capable and knowledgeable of characters (especially if you're in an pre-established setting like Star Wars or Lord of the Rings) can't even begin to fathom as being remotely possible.

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21 hours ago, Ahrimon said:

My .02 credits.

The force seeks balance and vergences emerge when the force is out of balance.  Anakin was apparently conceived by the force when Plagius attempted to bring something to life with the dark side.  Rey gained her power because Luke cut himself off from the force thus unbalancing things against Snoke.  By purging a vergence, a new one will just pop up somewhere else, perhaps even worse than the last.  Alternatively a good vergence may get snuffed out as well.

This sort of thing - along with such a cleansing being extremely difficult - could make for some interesting choices for the character.

Think of the series finale of Buffy the Vampire Slayer as an example. Yes, after seven seasons, they closed/destroyed the hellmouth that was under Sunnydale...and doing so left a big crater where Sunnydale had been.

latest?cb=20080921201005

Could make for quite a campaign...the first few sessions spent getting rid of that vergence, which not only causes major destruction where it had been, but also makes a bigger, nastier one appear somewhere else, and the players must contain the chaos that’s coming forth from it.

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The most capable and knowledgeable characters of the Star Wars setting tend to have gigantic blind spots about various things, and the Jedi were one of the prime examples. They might well have decided that it was too dangerous to try, or simply impossible - but that doesn't necessarily mean that they were right.

That being said, I'd have to ask what the scale/power/nature of the vergence is. If it's one that's limited to a local scale and was caused by a specific set of events/emotions leaving an imprint then, while it might be easier said than done, you could reasonably expect to disrupt/cleanse/counter the vergence by arranging contrary events/emotions in the same area. I'd treat this as a narrative challenge rather than a specific power, though.

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I'll need a picnic basket, 3 womprats, a gently used krayt dragon pearl and.... that guy's leg.

 

While this might sound smartassed and dismissive, it's really intended to show that you could use anything to accomplish the goal. While others will discuss the semantics of whether you can or can't do something or whether you should.... ultimately it's your game, and your call.

 

Can it be done? Maybe. Should you stop your players from trying.... **** no: that's campaign fodder right there. Will they be successful? Maybe. Will the effect be permanent? Maybe. Should it be easy? Doubtful.

There's no right answer as most canon examples have basically left them alone or used them as balance lessons for the force but it's your (And your player's) game. Have fun with it.

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So on the topic of cleansing out dark side corruption/taint from a vergence...

I was skimming through the Lure of the Lost follow-up adventure for the F&D Beginner Box (takes place shortly after Mountaintop Rescue).  As a conclusion to the first act...

The PCs wind up fighting a corrupted mother wolf monster, a quasi-alive creature that was victimized by a hunter from a local village not all that long ago (no specific time frame given, but implication is that it was less than a year at most).  The mother wolf's rage and anger wound up tainting the cave system, which is noted as being a fairly local vergence (doesn't use the Nexus of Power rules because those hadn't been written yet).  Either defeating or soothing the pain/rage of the zombie mother wolf ends the source of the dark side taint in the valley region where the adventure takes place, but doesn't immediately cleanse the region either (for reasons that get detailed much later in the adventure).

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Just now, Donovan Morningfire said:

So on the topic of cleansing out dark side corruption/taint from a vergence...

I was skimming through the Lure of the Lost follow-up adventure for the F&D Beginner Box (takes place shortly after Mountaintop Rescue).  As a conclusion to the first act...

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

The PCs wind up fighting a corrupted mother wolf monster, a quasi-alive creature that was victimized by a hunter from a local village not all that long ago (no specific time frame given, but implication is that it was less than a year at most).  The mother wolf's rage and anger wound up tainting the cave system, which is noted as being a fairly local vergence (doesn't use the Nexus of Power rules because those hadn't been written yet).  Either defeating or soothing the pain/rage of the zombie mother wolf ends the source of the dark side taint in the valley region where the adventure takes place, but doesn't immediately cleanse the region either (for reasons that get detailed much later in the adventure).

 

 

So what does that mean in regards to the topic at hand?

That removing the taint of the dark side from a normally pure/untainted vergence that's been corrupted is possible, but that it's not a miracle fix, and there's no indication that an inherently corrupt site can be "cleansed;" at best the PCs might be able to set the site to "neutral."

Or, as a possible offshoot, what if removing the dark side from a vergence means that you wind up making the location dead to the Force, and that nothing can grow or thrive in that region?  After all, the dark side is a part of the Force, as are the death and destruction aspects in the circle of life that it reflects.  So if you completely remove the dark side from a region, that means you're removing part of the Force from that region, which could have some pretty catastrophic and unplanned consequences.

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10 hours ago, warchild1x said:

I'll need a picnic basket, 3 womprats, a gently used krayt dragon pearl and.... that guy's leg.

 

While this might sound smartassed and dismissive, it's really intended to show that you could use anything to accomplish the goal. While others will discuss the semantics of whether you can or can't do something or whether you should.... ultimately it's your game, and your call.

 

Can it be done? Maybe. Should you stop your players from trying.... **** no: that's campaign fodder right there. Will they be successful? Maybe. Will the effect be permanent? Maybe. Should it be easy? Doubtful.

There's no right answer as most canon examples have basically left them alone or used them as balance lessons for the force but it's your (And your player's) game. Have fun with it.

Sounds like rocket raccoon was your jedi master

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