Jump to content
SOTL

First Edition: a Living Rulebook?

Recommended Posts

7 hours ago, SOTL said:

I think that's I break it down into that X-Wing 2.0 doesn't have to sell me casual X-Wing because I've already got casual X-Wing and it's not going anywhere.  X-Wing 2.0 has to sell me competitive X-Wing, and so far what I've seen has entirely failed to do that.

I'm the opposite.  I'm a strict casual with no desire to play competitively, yet 2.0 sounds far more fun than 1.x, to me.  I'm really looking forward to the ships I want to play actually accomplishing something, instead of melting immediately to "Ok, so my Poe reveals his maneuver, then ignores it and just gets placed anywhere on the board at any facing I choose.  Then my YT does a 1-straight, after which I dump every single non-red token I own onto it, until the pile grows so large that it physically pushes your ships off the edge.  Good game!"

But for those of y'all who can play 1.x in a less frustrating meta, best of luck to you, and I hope you have fun for years to come with it!

Edited by JJ48

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, SOTL said:

There were endless endless endless fix threads for X-Wing before 2.0 was announced, and thank god we've had an end to all that because they rarely did anything but spawn arguments.   With the game about to fork down two different paths - the majority jumping to 2nd Edition, a more casual minority remaining with 1st Edition - I want to revisit the idea of putting in place a 'parting gift' of balance adjustments for the 1st Edition legacy.  This would try and curb some of the worst excesses of the late 1st Edition metagame and try to create a more pleasant play experience for those who will be left playing 1st Edition.

Primary Objectives: tune down excess dice modification (offense & defense), reduce potency of secondary weapons, reduce most oppressive control effects.

Secondary Objectives: buff underplayed ships

Because 1st Edition is likely to have far fewer competitive events going forwards there's less pressure to try and 'balance' the game, as much as just trying to tune down some of the less enjoyable aspects and create a platform for a bit more creative pew-pew.   And hopefully most of the people who would respond so vehemently against fix threads will leave it alone a bit because they're moving onto 2nd Edition anyway.

So, some ideas off the top of my head...

 

EPTS

  • Push The Limit - "When you perform a boost or barrel roll action you may perform a free action on your action bar.  If you do so gain a stress token"
  • Veteran Instincts - "At the beginning of the Activation Phase you may discard this card.  If you do so treat your Pilot Skill as though it was 12 until the end the of turn"
  • Expertise - "When you are attacking, if you are not stressed you may change one [Focus] result to a [Crit] result"

PTL not allowing you to stack either Focus/Evade or TL/Focus is right on target for reducing the excess dice modification.  Veteran Instincts is something that's been removed from 2.0, making it a one-shot effect is still very potent I think, and probably still gets played heavily.  Expertise aligns with Luke's gunner ability as what being one with the Force adds to your attack, more like a Predator-level dice mod.

 

SECONDARY WEAPONS

  • TLT - "Your attack dice cannot be modified"
  • Extra Munitions - "Your action bar gains the [Reload] icon"
  • Guidance Chips - "Once per turn, when attacking with a [Torpedo] weapon..."
  • Bomblet Generator - "When you reveal your dial you may either add a Munitions token to Bomblet Generator, or remove a Munitions token from Bomblet Generator to drop 1 bomblet token"

Reducing Secondary Weapons is a big deal for me because if you can close the gap to primary weapons you really bring back a lot of potential for generics.  TLT is a much less reliable damage source and won't beat agile fighters, Extra Munitions at least pauses the flow of ordnance while they reload, Guidance Chips being used on Torpedoes-only takes it away from sitting on top of the extra Missiles reroll from not having to spend their TL, Bomblet Generator to every other turn at least gives you a negative to just spamming the bomb out whenever you move.

 

RULES CHANGES

  • Reinforce - "When defending, if you have at least one shield token you may add an [Evade] result"
  • Secondary Weapons - "you may roll an additional green dice when defending against secondary weapons at R3."
  • Bomb Tokens - "If a ship's base or maneuver template causes a bomb token to detonate that ship rolls a number of green dice equal to its printed Agility.  If there are any [Focus] results then the ship may ignore the effects of the bomb's detonation"

The Reinforce rules change is just aimed at nerfing the triple/quad Auzituck squads a bit, I think Lowhhrick probably still functions but switches to R2-D2 crew not C-3PO.  Secondary Weapons green dice just pushes back further on Harpoons/Dash/Plasma Torps etc, and never really made much fluff sense to me that you didn't get it.  The Bomb tokens one is a big change that would need to be tested through, but essentially I want to try and make bombs playable but not completely suppressive of A-Wings/Protectorates/Interceptors etc.

 

PILOTS/SHIPS

  • Punishing One - "When attacking, if the defender is inside your firing arc you may roll an additional red dice.  Your upgrade bar gains [Salvaged Astromech]"
  • Fenn Rau Sheathipede - "When a ship in your firing arc at range 1-3 becomes the active ship during the combat phase, if you are not stressed you may receive 2 stress tokens.  If you do..."
  • Quickdraw - TBC
  • Slave I - Buff TBC
  • B-Wing/E1 - Buff TBC
  • TIE Punisher - Buff TBC
     

MISC

  • Latts Razzi - "Once per turn..."
  • R3-A2 - "When you declare the target of your attack, if you are not stressed and the defender is in your firing arc, you may receive 1 stress token to cause the defender to receive 1 stress token"

 

WATCH LIST (no changes yet, but we'd be looking at how they do)

  • Director Krennic, Harpoon Missiles, Miranda Doni, Crack Shot, Sabine Wren crew

 

 

What do we think.  Is this a useful project to create this before we wave goodbye to the 1st Edition players?

In general I think it is a worthwhile project, if you get some use out of it. However, I think trying to fix each individual card may not be the most efficient or effective strategy. The problem with x-wing is not the cards themselves, but the ability to use them on any ship, and in combination with cards that they probably should not be used with. This is what has led to the all the jank and meta lists. This is why some cards never see play, while other cards get stapled to **** near every ship in the game(PTL, VI etc). The problem is the squad building system that allows this, that there are no rules in place to limit it, nor the will to do so. Hopefully, 2.0 will put the brakes on some of these shenanigans, but I honestly have little faith that they will do so. Instead, I fear they will only reset the game and then repeat all the same mistakes. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, acesandeights said:

Hopefully, 2.0 will put the brakes on some of these shenanigans, but I honestly have little faith that they will do so. Instead, I fear they will only reset the game and then repeat all the same mistakes. 

Maybe, but from what I've seen, things are already moving in the right direction.  Chained actions help allow some action economy while controlling which actions can be performed, and charges allow cards to fall in a happy medium between "use one time" and "use every turn".  Red actions will also help ensure that you actually have to choose what you want to do each round, rather than simply performing every action you have.  The Bullseye arc will reward good flying, and (hopefully) less token-stacking will mean we can't just make pseudo-Suncrushers.

There's a lot that could still go wrong, but I think they're moving inthe right direction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, RedHotDice said:

Was aware of Majorjugglers work, but also how a complete overhaul it is, and like SOTL I am more looking for some simple changes (fix/bufs) to the "outliers" and core mechanics to keep the game like 1.0 (WHICH IS A GAME I LOVE), but "better" in a casual setting.

For the perfectly balances tournament setting I will be going 2.0.

 

I expect it to take quite a while before 2e is balanced well, at least 2 cost revisions to get in the ballpark, and another one to fine tune. FFG will be doing 3 or 4 cost revisions per year, so expect it to take a half a year to a year before 2e is reasonably well balanced.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, acesandeights said:

Hopefully, 2.0 will put the brakes on some of these shenanigans, but I honestly have little faith that they will do so. Instead, I fear they will only reset the game and then repeat all the same mistakes. 

That was the AGOT 2.0 experience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

- If you think you can't afford it, it's a one-time fee of $90 MSRP, probably $70 if you go online. (For conversion+core- most collections are approx that size. Note, you can buy conversion kit parts 3rd party online) If you can't afford that with a 4 month leadup time, you are either lying or in such a bad financial scenario that you should not be playing X-wing, or any game whatsoever. Spending that time making a 1.0 fan ruleset would be better served searching for a job.

Where are you getting that $90 from?

It's $40 for the core.
It's $50 to use my Rebel ships.
It's $50 to use my Imperial ships.
It's $50 to use my Scum ships.
It's an undisclosed amount to use my Resistance ships.
It's an undisclosed amount to use my First Order ships.
It's an undisclosed amount to use my Huge ships.
In addition, to play an Epic game extra conversion kits or parts from conversion kits will need to be purchased for the quantity of ships that show up in those games.

Even if the undisclosed prices are as low as $40 each it it still going to cost over $300 to make the move to 2nd Edition. More if you want to make sure that all of your owned ships have 2.0 components.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Where are you getting that $90 from?

It's $40 for the core.
It's $50 to use my Rebel ships.
It's $50 to use my Imperial ships.
It's $50 to use my Scum ships.
It's an undisclosed amount to use my Resistance ships.
It's an undisclosed amount to use my First Order ships.
It's an undisclosed amount to use my Huge ships.
In addition, to play an Epic game extra conversion kits or parts from conversion kits will need to be purchased for the quantity of ships that show up in those games.

Even if the undisclosed prices are as low as $40 each it it still going to cost over $300 to make the move to 2nd Edition. More if you want to make sure that all of your owned ships have 2.0 components.

 

Please don't rehash that whinge in this thread, use one if the 85 other threads about that instead

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Please don't rehash that whinge in this thread, use one if the 85 other threads about that instead

Sure thing, as long as people claiming that the move to 2nd edition costs less than $90 confine that nonsense to those threads as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@SOTL Im with ya as I dont think 1.0 is too far off from being fun battles no matter the list, instead of "Ugh, I have to face Ghost/Fenn or 100pt Miranda. UGH!"

But I think fixes just need to be simpler instead of "If a ship's base or maneuver template causes a bomb token to detonate that ship rolls a number of green dice equal to its printed Agility.  If there are any [Focus] results then the ship may ignore the effects of the bomb's detonation"

 

So, simple fixes?

TLT = banned. The only ones who regularly use this **** card are the abusers, quad TLT lists, Miranda and Ghost, etc. Ban it. Ywings can succeed with ion, and deadeye synced still exists for Kavils, and other EPT turrets etc. as well.

Experimental Interface - banned. Not needed in the game, and currently the way slamming miranda and kwings can still spam action bombs keeping low hull ships away. Nobody plays it as is, and we dont need slamming bombers EVER.

Guidance chips - Torpedoes only. your fix works. Torps need the help, not missiles.

VI - generic only. If a Rho wants to get to PS6 instead of 4 to slam passed ps5 Lowhhrick, no problem. 

Adaptability - Cannot exceed Pilot Skill 9. Allows whisper to get to a respectable 8. And Nym could get to 9.

PTL - your ship loses the evade action. Turtling up is the main problem with PTL abusers like Corran Horn and Soontir and Asajj and Brobots

Expertise - Should have "Then receive a stress token" at the end. Enables ships carrying it to be more predictable, stops double tapping.

Reinforce - 2nd Ed has it right, should stop damage to a minimum of 1. 

Harpoons - condition doesn't stack

rebel Fenn Rau - ability should end with "Then receive a weapons disabled token." You give up your 2 attack die ship attack to neuter a bigger threat. Seems fair. Keeps HSCP cheese away, and tactician, etc. And he cant PS11 anymore (see VI above).

R3A2 - Once per round. Stops gunner,snapshot,and BTLA from abusing it.

Bomblet - roll 1 attack die when it detonates. Like an APL or Ion Proj. Makes it worse than a seismic, but still infinite and crit possible.

K4 - Same limits as x7 title to keep it simple.

Autoblaster turret - you lose system slot. Keeps the abuse away.

 

 

Edited by wurms

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, WWHSD said:

Where are you getting that $90 from?

It's $40 for the core.
It's $50 to use my Rebel ships.
It's $50 to use my Imperial ships.
It's $50 to use my Scum ships.
It's an undisclosed amount to use my Resistance ships.
It's an undisclosed amount to use my First Order ships.
It's an undisclosed amount to use my Huge ships.
In addition, to play an Epic game extra conversion kits or parts from conversion kits will need to be purchased for the quantity of ships that show up in those games.

Even if the undisclosed prices are as low as $40 each it it still going to cost over $300 to make the move to 2nd Edition. More if you want to make sure that all of your owned ships have 2.0 components.

 

How many ships do you own? Because if you need to buy all of those kits directly(ie- Don't buy the partitions that will show up online) your collection must be drastically bigger than is practically usable. The conversion kits cost, per-ship, roughly the same amount as sales tax.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, RedHotDice said:

I like this thread and the way you are taking this SOTL - I am on a similar page. 

Suggestions:

Miranda's ability: keep it but make it in-front-arc only. 

Keep Guidance Chips as is, but simply make Harpoon missiles not able to use it. 

Limit Sabine to damage to shields only. 

Unnerf Advanced Slam (with miranda/sabine nerfed=ok). 

Limit R2D2/R5P9 to 4 shield recharges (place 4 shield tokens at setup on the card). 

Undo JM5K nerf, but remove elite pilot talent slot from contracted scout.

Punishing one title removes torpedo slots. 

E-wing: 1 shield and inbuilt long range scanners (Yes Corran becomes better, but)

Corran Horn: you may only reroll 1 dice result in your end-phase attack.

TIE Punisher: Epts on Aces, PS+2 on all ships. One Torpedo/Missile/Bomb-upgrade card is free. 

TIE/D title: -2 point on equipped cannon.

Royal Guard Title: usable by all PS interceptors. -1 pt on all modifications. Discard to ignore bomb effects. Epts on all Aces

First Order Vanguard: no longer unique.

Kylo Ren (Silencer): when attacking may roll one additional red dice at range 3, instead of his present crap ability.

undo Mindlink nerf, but let it make all green hard-turns white.

1.0 Sabine could also use 2.0 Sabine ability instead.  Starts the match with token for each status effect, adds one of choice when bomb is hit (stress, ion, Jam, tractor, maybe even WD ?)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, piznit said:

1.0 Sabine could also use 2.0 Sabine ability instead.  Starts the match with token for each status effect, adds one of choice when bomb is hit (stress, ion, Jam, tractor, maybe even WD ?)

Don't understimate 2.0 Sabine, that token threat is really potent - I might even consider it a buff.

 

@wurms I like the VI change you propose, I'll take that one.  You may be right on Adaptability as well, as it'll just become VI by proxy.  We're hitting most of the same targets though.
 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

How many ships do you own? Because if you need to buy all of those kits directly(ie- Don't buy the partitions that will show up online) your collection must be drastically bigger than is practically usable. The conversion kits cost, per-ship, roughly the same amount as sales tax.

That's only 1 conversion kit per faction and assumes that what will be needed for huge ships covers all of the huge ships in one pack. It leaves me with some ships I'm lacking components for but I wasn't actually adding any cost for those.  Other than a few one offs,  my overages are mostly on things like X-Wings, TIE fighters, TIE Interceptors, and TIE Bombers. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 " - If you think you can't afford it, it's a one-time fee of $90 MSRP, probably $70 if you go online. (For conversion+core- most collections are approx that size. "

 

 

Evidence or it is just your opinion.  =P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

How many ships do you own? Because if you need to buy all of those kits directly(ie- Don't buy the partitions that will show up online) your collection must be drastically bigger than is practically usable. The conversion kits cost, per-ship, roughly the same amount as sales tax.

why do you have to shame someone for their collection?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎6‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 7:32 PM, wurms said:

@SOTL Im with ya as I dont think 1.0 is too far off from being fun battles no matter the list, instead of "Ugh, I have to face Ghost/Fenn or 100pt Miranda. UGH!"

But I think fixes just need to be simpler instead of "If a ship's base or maneuver template causes a bomb token to detonate that ship rolls a number of green dice equal to its printed Agility.  If there are any [Focus] results then the ship may ignore the effects of the bomb's detonation"

 

So, simple fixes?

TLT = banned. The only ones who regularly use this **** card are the abusers, quad TLT lists, Miranda and Ghost, etc. Ban it. Ywings can succeed with ion, and deadeye synced still exists for Kavils, and other EPT turrets etc. as well.

Experimental Interface - banned. Not needed in the game, and currently the way slamming miranda and kwings can still spam action bombs keeping low hull ships away. Nobody plays it as is, and we dont need slamming bombers EVER.

Guidance chips - Torpedoes only. your fix works. Torps need the help, not missiles.

VI - generic only. If a Rho wants to get to PS6 instead of 4 to slam passed ps5 Lowhhrick, no problem. 

Adaptability - Cannot exceed Pilot Skill 9. Allows whisper to get to a respectable 8. And Nym could get to 9.

PTL - your ship loses the evade action. Turtling up is the main problem with PTL abusers like Corran Horn and Soontir and Asajj and Brobots

Expertise - Should have "Then receive a stress token" at the end. Enables ships carrying it to be more predictable, stops double tapping.

Reinforce - 2nd Ed has it right, should stop damage to a minimum of 1. 

Harpoons - condition doesn't stack

rebel Fenn Rau - ability should end with "Then receive a weapons disabled token." You give up your 2 attack die ship attack to neuter a bigger threat. Seems fair. Keeps HSCP cheese away, and tactician, etc. And he cant PS11 anymore (see VI above).

R3A2 - Once per round. Stops gunner,snapshot,and BTLA from abusing it.

Bomblet - roll 1 attack die when it detonates. Like an APL or Ion Proj. Makes it worse than a seismic, but still infinite and crit possible.

K4 - Same limits as x7 title to keep it simple.

Autoblaster turret - you lose system slot. Keeps the abuse away.

 

 

I like it but don't make it too complex - just ban undesirable cards, it is a lot easier than rules changes.   Also take into account that they stopped caring about 1.0 about a year ago so consider banning all things put out in that year. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, freakyg3 said:

I like it but don't make it too complex - just ban undesirable cards, it is a lot easier than rules changes.   Also take into account that they stopped caring about 1.0 about a year ago so consider banning all things put out in that year. 

TLT, HARPOONS, BOMBLET can just get banned though for all I care and the game would 10x better instantly. One kwing with experimental wont be too bad to deal with slamming bombs and is always an option to control aces if they get out of hand.

Cruise missiles become playable again and can be brutal, but you know a 3+ maneuver has to make em worthwhile, so the defender can plan accordingly, and no abusisve condition. One of FFGs best designes cards ever I think.

 

The problem with straight up banning cards is it makes other upgrades much better. For instance banned stressbot just makes Expertise a powerhouse. But stressbot + any double tap straight-up abuses any one ship. I think stressbot is a fair trade off, even on ezra. Its the double tap that abuses it.

Banning PTL makes many ships unplayable without linked actions like in 2.0.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/12/2018 at 4:40 AM, SOTL said:

Guidance Chips - "Once per turn, when attacking with a [Torpedo] weapon..."

Are there any missiles besides Harpoon that get too good when Guidance Chips are used? I don't think so.

Leave GC alone and make the Harpooned condition require spending an uncancelled hit or crit (mandatory).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/12/2018 at 2:14 PM, GrimmyV said:

I’d say if you want to play 1.0 then really play it!  Nothing is barred!  Cloak works like in wave 4, tactician is unlimited, Junkmasters are the original OP, etc...

Just say no to the FAQ

when everything is broken then nothing needs fixing 

I've also had a secret desire to say no to ALL squad building rules except for points. You want to take Hera with 4-Lom? Go right ahead. Carry Palp in the Ghost? Be my guest. Equip a cloaking device to the Outrider? Sure! Put Extra Munitions on an A-Wing? No problem!

I haven't theory-crafted yet, but there's some serious shenanigans to be had.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...