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Tvboy

Anybody play on TTS?

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I finally got Tabletop Simulator, and I just checked out the skirmish module available. I like it a lot more than Vassal, like way way more. List building and saving is way easier and way eaiser to see everything when you can freely zoom in and out with having everything in multiple windows.

Does anybody still use TTS to play online skirmish? Where should I go to find a game?

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On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 1:45 PM, Tvboy said:

I finally got Tabletop Simulator, and I just checked out the skirmish module available. I like it a lot more than Vassal, like way way more. List building and saving is way easier and way eaiser to see everything when you can freely zoom in and out with having everything in multiple windows.

Does anybody still use TTS to play online skirmish? Where should I go to find a game?

I'm very surprised people find TTS easier to use than Vassal.  I found having to create a bag and save stuff that way much more complicated than just throwing everything in the deck slot and right click for save/load.

Having to constantly move and zoom the camera and hover over things just to see dice rolls and health is super annoying. Having figures knock over each other and doors is annoying.  Distinguishing figures is annoying.  The damage and conditions stack in weird ways.

There's also no lobby, so you can't just be on and find people to play.

It's certainly a lot more like playing in person, but that's not what I want when I'm playing online.

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The lack of a lobby is definitely a problem, but one that can be substituted with something like Discord. 

I think if I had a 2 monitor setup then Vassal would be easier for me, but working with just a single screen, it's very difficult to fit the map, the dice, my deployment cards, my command cards, the chat, and the opponent's deployment cards all in one screen comfortably without zooming way out on all of them. That means constantly having to switch between different windows to see different parts of the game, without being able to use alt+tab to do so. 

Also the way that the list builder in Vassal is setup is terrible. Having to click between trait tabs to find each command card and not just typing in the name of the card I want? Blech. Just have a search bar so I can grab exactly the cards I need. Then after pulling out the cards I have to click and drag each card into the deck manually because if you try to drag multiple cards at the same time, it doesn't actually consolidate them. On TTS, I can easily select multiple cards either with an expanding drag selection or by tapping T while hovering my mouse over cards, and then I just hit G and it magically vacuums all those grabbed cards into a deck! Way faster than Vassal and requires less dexterity and less right clicking (which sounds stupid but it gets frustrating after a while). Same thing for the Deployment cards and skirmish upgrades. 

The controls and the camera are very intuitive for me on TTS compared to Vassal, which feels very clunky trying to navigate multiple windows. Everything in the TTS module is already perfectly organized as soon as you fire it up in a way that makes everything accessible, whereas with Vassal I have to spend 5-10 minutes just trying to figure out a good layout for all my various windows. The map can be instantly changed without having to start a new game, and I actually like that the map looks like it does when I play IRL, after playing around with TTS, I realize now that the pure overhead view in Vassal is actually slightly disorienting for me. 

I haven't actually played a game yet so I don't know how I'll feel about moving the figures around, or that the figure images are 2D standees that are invisible from certain angles (seemed easily fixable by highlighting the figure and tapping E to rotate it),  or figuring out LOS, but the UI and setup in TTS has felt way better for me than Vassal. That's just my personal feeling. 

Edited by Tvboy

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For ease-of-use, I prefer tabletop but I always feel like bassell is a much more robust way to get quick games in.

What I'm more interested in is that several of my friends I would want to play online with hate vassal for the reasons described above, so it will be good to be able to play with them again.

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49 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

Then after pulling out the cards I have to click and drag each card into the deck manually because if you try to drag multiple cards at the same time, it doesn't actually consolidate them.

This is where you just missed the buttons to make this easy.

There are 3 buttons on your player window next to the toolbar text button "Send to Deck", one for command cards, deployment, and figures.  Clicking those buttons moves all of that card type to the deck (command cards have to be hidden first).

This means once you lay out your command and deployment cards, you can hide all the command cards, select the deployment cards and CTRL+F to get figures, add any notes with CTRL+N (like "2" for group 2) then simply hit 3 buttons (putting command on bottom is best) and right click and save.

When loading, you can use Draw Multiple to get 9-10 cards out at a time and then deselect the stack and then split them apart easily.

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8 hours ago, DTDanix said:

This is where you just missed the buttons to make this easy.

There are 3 buttons on your player window next to the toolbar text button "Send to Deck", one for command cards, deployment, and figures.  Clicking those buttons moves all of that card type to the deck (command cards have to be hidden first).

But that’s not even 1 click, you didn’t mention the pop up window that I have to deal with that asks me what deck I want to send it to. Why would I want send my Command cards to something that’s not my Command deck, it should just be automatic.

Also there were a bunch of other things that I mentioned. Like when are they going to stop putting all the Command cards in trait/faction tabs and just have them all alpha sorted or searchable? Why can’t we just load our list from a list builder like the X-Wing module does? The IA Vassal doesn’t work for me as it is now, it’s not fun, playing IA skirmish on Vassal actually the opposite of fun for me.

Anyway, I have the day off tomorrow since classes are over, I’ll lurk around here and the Discord channel if anyone wants to play a game. On TTS.

Edited by Tvboy

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52 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

But that’s not even 1 click, you didn’t mention the pop up window that I have to deal with that asks me what deck I want to send it to. Why would I want send my Command cards to something that’s not my Command deck, it should just be automatic.

No idea what you're talking about.  All 3 buttons send to command deck in 1 click.  They're the buttons that have the icons for deployment/commmand/figures.

TTS doesn't support importing lists either?

Building your list is more time consuming in TTS since you have to number and color every figure and card or else it's impossible to tell what's what.  The couple minutes it takes you to find the command cards really shouldn't be that much of an issue.

I can definitely understand having trouble with all the windows with a single monitor.  But other than that, I think every other aspect about playing on TTS is worse.

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1 hour ago, DTDanix said:

No idea what you're talking about.  All 3 buttons send to command deck in 1 click.  They're the buttons that have the icons for deployment/commmand/figures.

TTS doesn't support importing lists either?

Building your list is more time consuming in TTS since you have to number and color every figure and card or else it's impossible to tell what's what.  The couple minutes it takes you to find the command cards really shouldn't be that much of an issue.

I can definitely understand having trouble with all the windows with a single monitor.  But other than that, I think every other aspect about playing on TTS is worse.

OK, that’s your opinion. They can both exist and be used by the people that prefer one over the other. I like TTS. 

Neither of us need to be proved wrong for liking the program we like.

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8 hours ago, Tvboy said:

OK, that’s your opinion. They can both exist and be used by the people that prefer one over the other. I like TTS. 

Neither of us need to be proved wrong for liking the program we like.

I never stated otherwise.

If people like TTS, they can play on that.  I just wouldn't recommend it for the reasons I stated, and I would like to avoid splitting the small community.

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10 hours ago, Tvboy said:

But that’s not even 1 click, you didn’t mention the pop up window that I have to deal with that asks me what deck I want to send it to. Why would I want send my Command cards to something that’s not my Command deck, it should just be automatic.

Also there were a bunch of other things that I mentioned. Like when are they going to stop putting all the Command cards in trait/faction tabs and just have them all alpha sorted or searchable? Why can’t we just load our list from a list builder like the X-Wing module does? The IA Vassal doesn’t work for me as it is now, it’s not fun, playing IA skirmish on Vassal actually the opposite of fun for me.

Anyway, I have the day off tomorrow since classes are over, I’ll lurk around here and the Discord channel if anyone wants to play a game. On TTS.

I'm the guy who made and updates the Vassal mod, and I'm sorry you don't like it.

I have some comments about some of the things you've brought up.  And actually, I myself share a number of your complaints too: 

  • I do wish that there was a searchable list for finding Command Cards, but (as far as I'm aware) that's just not possible on Vassal.  I used to have them all sorted alphabetically, but that list got really large (and tedious to scroll all the way through), and it also seemed like players really liked it when I sorted the cards by Trait instead.  
  • I tried to make it possible to load IA squads from a list builder like X-Wing does, but for the life of me I can't figure out how that works.  I've examined the innards of the X-Wing mod, but I can't figure out how they do it...if anyone knows how to do it then I'd love some pointers or some help!  Right now, this upgrade is at the top of my wish-list for the mod.
  • I didn't design the vassal mod primarily as a squad-builder app.  And yes, it does take a couple of minutes to build your squad on Vassal.  I've made some improvements to it as time has gone by, though; for example, you now just need to press CTRL-F one time (rather than 3) to create all 3 figures of a Stormtrooper squad.  I've also made it easier to create the various other components from their pieces/cards (such as creating the Junk Droid token from the Ugnaught figure).  But beyond that, I think that DT already explained the creation/saving/loading process fairly completely.  It seems to me that on this issue you either don't understand what he described, or else you're looking for the kind of utility and user-interface that you find in high-tech (and paid!) software programs, rather than in a java-based (and free!) program.  Personally, I'd pay good money for a high-end software program that allowed me to play IA online...but until such a thing shows up, Vassal or TTS will have to do.
  • The biggest complaint, though--which I've heard from you and from others as well--is the number of windows that the module uses.  And yes, I completely understand where you're coming from here!  The mod works just fine and seems to be fairly intuitive if you have 2 monitors, but it's a pain in the neck if you don't.  Believe me, I've wrestled with this issue more than anything else during my time spent creating and updating the mod!  The dilemma is that--as with just about all FFG games, lol!--there are SO MANY components!  Deployment Cards, Command Cards, tokens, dice, more tokens, etc.  The very first version of the mod had a single window, which held the map and had room on the sides for people to lay out their deployment cards, but that was often very chaotic and disorganized and, furthermore, you had to zoom the map out too far in order to see everything.  Beyond that, players each needed a spot for their own Command Deck and a place to hold their CCs, so the Player Hands were there anyway.  Then I decided to simplify things and add space in the Player Hand windows for Deployment Cards, which actually made it easier to work with the map and required less space on the screen than it did originally.  By the way, this is the way that the X-Wing mod is laid out too: main map, player hands, dice window.  So I'm not sure what more I can do here.  I've tried to find a way to make the Player Hands merge into one window (with a separate Tab for each player) so that people have 1 less window to deal with, but so far I haven't been able to find a way to do that.  Oh, and did I mention that each Player Hand has a keyboard shortcut to open/close it?  (see below)  That really helps to save on screen real estate if you're short on space.
  • R-clicking:  There's a keyboard shortcut for probably 90% or more of the commands on Vassal.  Just use them a bit and they'll become second-nature for you.  Really, learning the keyboard shortcuts is so valuable for playing on Vassal--no matter what game you're playing.
  • Movement of pieces:  DT has a good point about the fiddly-ness of moving pieces around on TTS; by contrast, movement on Vassal is very easy and smooth.  The Vassal mod has keyboard movement: press a direction on your numPad and the figure moves 1 space in that direction (it even works for Large and Huge figures).  
  • Dice:  I've heard nothing but happiness about the dice window (other than the fact that it's another window!).  

Perhaps this helps to answer some of your questions or frustrations with the Vassal mod.  Is there a regular community of IA players on TTS?  Do IA tournaments happen with any regularity on TTS?  Regardless, there are lots of IA players on Vassal...and many Vassal leagues too.  Vassal certainly does take some getting used to, and it is more frustrating when you only have 1 screen, but if you give it an honest chance I think you might learn to like it.

Cheers!

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27 minutes ago, thereisnotry said:

Perhaps this helps to answer some of your questions or frustrations with the Vassal mod.  Is there a regular community of IA players on TTS?  Do IA tournaments happen with any regularity on TTS?  Regardless, there are lots of IA players on Vassal...and many Vassal leagues too.  Vassal certainly does take some getting used to, and it is more frustrating when you only have 1 screen, but if you give it an honest chance I think you might learn to like it.

Cheers!

Hey, first I want to say, thank you for all your hard work on allowing people to play the game online for free. I am glad to hear that you are listening to feedback on the module and trying to optimize it to the best of your ability. I would like you to know that I have been using the IA vassal mod since 2016, mostly to practice my opening setups and round 1 maneuvers. I have certainly given it a chance. In fact I just played a game on it this morning. As you said, if I want to get practice games in online before Store Champs, I don't really have a choice. 

This thread was not and is not intended to be a "dump on the Vassal mod" thread. This thread wasn't supposed to be about Vassal at all, but DT decided this was supposed to become the "defend Vassal thread". Again, this thread is not an attack on the Vassal module. This isn't a TTS vs Vassal comparison thread. I wish I hadn't fallen into the trap of engaging with DT and saying why I have issues with Vassal, because that's not what this thread is about. At all. 

If you guys want to talk about the pros and cons of Vassal, maybe you should go make your own thread about it instead of hijacking this one? I'd be happy to give even more feedback on how I think the Vassal module could be improved in a more appropriate channel. I hope I'm not coming off as hostile, it's just frustrating because I made this thread to talk about TTS, because I really like TTS and wanted to see if there were other players who liked it too. If somebody made a thread about how much they liked the campaign, you wouldn't start making posts in their thread about how skirmish is better and they should wise up and play skirmish instead and stop playing campaign. 

Edited by Tvboy

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Sorry.  You asked about TTS so I shared about my experience with TTS.  Then you brought up some problems with Vassal and I responded and we talked about that.

I apologize for messing up your thread.

 

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4 hours ago, Tvboy said:

Hey, first I want to say, thank you for all your hard work on allowing people to play the game online for free. I am glad to hear that you are listening to feedback on the module and trying to optimize it to the best of your ability. I would like you to know that I have been using the IA vassal mod since 2016, mostly to practice my opening setups and round 1 maneuvers. I have certainly given it a chance. In fact I just played a game on it this morning. As you said, if I want to get practice games in online before Store Champs, I don't really have a choice. 

This thread was not and is not intended to be a "dump on the Vassal mod" thread. This thread wasn't supposed to be about Vassal at all, but DT decided this was supposed to become the "defend Vassal thread". Again, this thread is not an attack on the Vassal module. This isn't a TTS vs Vassal comparison thread. I wish I hadn't fallen into the trap of engaging with DT and saying why I have issues with Vassal, because that's not what this thread is about. At all. 

If you guys want to talk about the pros and cons of Vassal, maybe you should go make your own thread about it instead of hijacking this one? I'd be happy to give even more feedback on how I think the Vassal module could be improved in a more appropriate channel. I hope I'm not coming off as hostile, it's just frustrating because I made this thread to talk about TTS, because I really like TTS and wanted to see if there were other players who liked it too. If somebody made a thread about how much they liked the campaign, you wouldn't start making posts in their thread about how skirmish is better and they should wise up and play skirmish instead and stop playing campaign. 

Sorry, I wasn't thinking about the possibility of hijacking...I was just responding to the discussion.  But you're right: you did start this thread to see if people still play IA on TTS, so it should probably return to that focus.

I actually didn't see it as a dump-on-Vassal thing either, nor was I offended at all.  I hope my post didn't come across as aggressive, because that certainly wasn't my mindset as I was composing it.  I just thought that I could provide some additional perspective.  

Anyway, Vassal isn't the droid you're looking for.  /  You can go about your business.  /  Move along.  :)  

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On 6/12/2018 at 8:14 PM, thereisnotry said:

 

  • I do wish that there was a searchable list for finding Command Cards, but (as far as I'm aware) that's just not possible on Vassal.  I used to have them all sorted alphabetically, but that list got really large (and tedious to scroll all the way through), and it also seemed like players really liked it when I sorted the cards by Trait instead.

 

On 6/12/2018 at 8:14 PM, thereisnotry said:

 

  • I tried to make it possible to load IA squads from a list builder like X-Wing does, but for the life of me I can't figure out how that works.  I've examined the innards of the X-Wing mod, but I can't figure out how they do it...if anyone knows how to do it then I'd love some pointers or some help!  Right now, this upgrade is at the top of my wish-list for the mod.

Give me few pointers about these two, I'll see what I manage to do. No guarantees but I'll do my best. For the first one, I may try to deal with Vassal community and get some Java in.

Edited by Golan Trevize

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6 hours ago, Golan Trevize said:

 

Give me few pointers about these two, I'll see what I manage to do. No guarantees but I'll do my best. For the first one, I may try to deal with Vassal community and get some Java in.

The discussion was happening in the Skirmish Interchange Format discussion.  If you understand what they're talking about then I'd love any help you can offer!

As for making a searchable list within Vassal...wow.  That would be amazing.  If you know how to do that via Java and make it work with Vassal then I'll happily work with you on making it happen!

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1 hour ago, thereisnotry said:

The discussion was happening in the Skirmish Interchange Format discussion.  If you understand what they're talking about then I'd love any help you can offer!

As for making a searchable list within Vassal...wow.  That would be amazing.  If you know how to do that via Java and make it work with Vassal then I'll happily work with you on making it happen!

I've some experience with Java and UI I don't see that impossible as long as things in Vassal aren't too messy. I'll read the topic on the interchange format and give a look at the xwing module. This may take a while because I'll go on vacation soon so for few weeks I plan stay far from PC or anything else that can remind me of my job :D

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