My Argument against the Father, Son, Daughter

[Stan Fresh 2,465]

1 hour ago, Archlyte said:

Yes  sadly I added the guy you responded to and put Stan back on as I see nothing has changed there either. As for Tramp I do respect his knowledge of what is put down in the various wiki entries, but I honestly was commenting on the fact that if you like everything then there is no discussion (and actually I envy those who like everything). Thanks for engaging on topic Donovan. 

Ooooh the drama. It's surely completely unintentional that you try to stir **** up by publicly mentioning who you "ignore".

[Thebearisdriving 312]

1 hour ago, Archlyte said:

I feel like they let Filoni do his thing because he is an old school guy in the company, and the kids series he has done have been popular across age groups (because Star Wars).  Meanwhile, Pablo, while having supreme knowledge, seems like he knows where his bread is buttered and the story group just beats him into submission. He of all people should have put a stop to this idea or at least forced them to have it be only a dream sequence without the object from the dream in hand upon waking. 

The Mortis storyline and its later remnants in Rebels are the staff writers looking to expand on a theme that was not defined but was present in the original material. The idea of a fantasy Arthurian type feel was so good because it was achieved without a lot of "see this is like Merlin!" type stuff. Tolerating uncertainty is maybe one of the hardest things to do but it's rewards are sublime. 

Archlyte: you’re doing an awful lot of speculation on the motives of filoni, Lucas, et al at LFL. 

Let me tell you that Lucas was heavily involved in the mortis story. He was heavily involved in ALL the clone wars. Filoni personally oversees almost every aspect of rebels. These stories are not errant writers who think these things are cool and **** the man, this is the direction of SW, like it or lump it. 

As far as sourcing the above claim, I have come to understand this through multiple interviews with Filoni, Ashley eckstein (sp?), Freddie prince jr, Sam whitwer, and Lucas himself. I can’t just point to one place, and for that I apologize. You’ll just have to believe me, or not. 

Having said the above, again, this should have zero impact on 98% of games. Because it has zero impact on 98% of SW. Yoda’s not Concerned about the three; likely he doesn’t know they are real. Ezra interacted with their icons without ever understanding what was happening. 

Ill say it one last time; you don’t have to like it, you do t have to use it, and ignoring it is not done din against SW or the Fandom. As an example, I don’t like the way gungans were portrayed in Ep 1, but there was an art piece of a gungan force warrior that always looked awesome to me. So I made gungans boss in my games. The town they went to in Ep1, boss nass, etc they were from the deep Louisiana of Naboo. 

I’d worry less about what you don’t like, and focus on what you do like, and what you can do with that. But that’s just my philosophy. 

[Archlyte 1,227]

2 minutes ago, Thebearisdriving said:

Archlyte: you’re doing an awful lot of speculation on the motives of filoni, Lucas, et al at LFL. 

Let me tell you that Lucas was heavily involved in the mortis story. He was heavily involved in ALL the clone wars. Filoni personally oversees almost every aspect of rebels. These stories are not errant writers who think these things are cool and **** the man, this is the direction of SW, like it or lump it. 

As far as sourcing the above claim, I have come to understand this through multiple interviews with Filoni, Ashley eckstein (sp?), Freddie prince jr, Sam whitwer, and Lucas himself. I can’t just point to one place, and for that I apologize. You’ll just have to believe me, or not. 

Having said the above, again, this should have zero impact on 98% of games. Because it has zero impact on 98% of SW. Yoda’s not Concerned about the three; likely he doesn’t know they are real. Ezra interacted with their icons without ever understanding what was happening. 

Ill say it one last time; you don’t have to like it, you do t have to use it, and ignoring it is not done din against SW or the Fandom. As an example, I don’t like the way gungans were portrayed in Ep 1, but there was an art piece of a gungan force warrior that always looked awesome to me. So I made gungans boss in my games. The town they went to in Ep1, boss nass, etc they were from the deep Louisiana of Naboo. 

I’d worry less about what you don’t like, and focus on what you do like, and what you can do with that. But that’s just my philosophy. 

I was speculating because I don't know at all what went on there but I am curious as to why they would make this error in judgment as I see it. It is regrettable to me that some people do not understand that sometimes more isn't better, it's just more, and that extra stuff creates problems down the road. George has pulled plenty of bad moves in the past so yeah. I do believe you though, and it makes me adjust my understanding so I think that means we both get something out of the exchange, you taught me and I learned. 

[Daeglan 5,950]

1 hour ago, Archlyte said:

I was speculating because I don't know at all what went on there but I am curious as to why they would make this error in judgment as I see it. It is regrettable to me that some people do not understand that sometimes more isn't better, it's just more, and that extra stuff creates problems down the road. George has pulled plenty of bad moves in the past so yeah. I do believe you though, and it makes me adjust my understanding so I think that means we both get something out of the exchange, you taught me and I learned. 

Again you are putting more credance to what then spirits said than should be. 

In Stargate SG-1 the Goa'uld claimed to be gods. That did not make them gods. These spirits claimed to be the force. But nothing in the shows really backed that claim up. At most one might consider them Avatars. But i wouldnt. Also they werent the point of the episodes. How the main characters behaved was the point. 

As to the Lothal Iconograpgy. We dont know the significance of that. Because all we really have are pictures with out context.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Daeglan

[Archlyte 1,227]

4 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Again you are putting more credance to what then spirits said than should be. 

In Stargate SG-1 the Goa'uld claimed to be gods. That did not make them gods. These spirits claimed to be the force. But nothing in the shows really backed that claim up. At most one might consider them Avatars. But i wouldnt. Also they werent the point of the episodes. How the main characters behaved was the point. 

As to the Lothal Iconograpgy. We dont know the significance of that. Because all we really have are pictures with out context.

lol I still don't like the storyline, but I believe you about it's significance. /hands_in_air

[Desslok 13,571]

On 6/10/2018 at 12:38 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

The Father, Son, and Daughter, were manifestations of the Force, specifically ancient Force Wielders, who embodied and personified the three main aspects of the Force, but were not themselves the Force. 

Late to the party, but I would put The Three on the same level as the First Ones from B5, the Vorlons and the Shadows. Beings so far advanced of us puny mortals that they might as well be gods. Sufficiently evolved technology, indistinguishable from magic, if you will. They aren't The Force, but they might as well be The Force.

[syrath 1,316]

On 6/12/2018 at 8:53 PM, Archlyte said:

I feel like they let Filoni do his thing because he is an old school guy in the company, and the kids series he has done have been popular across age groups (because Star Wars).  Meanwhile, Pablo, while having supreme knowledge, seems like he knows where his bread is buttered and the story group just beats him into submission. He of all people should have put a stop to this idea or at least forced them to have it be only a dream sequence without the object from the dream in hand upon waking. 

The Mortis storyline and its later remnants in Rebels are the staff writers looking to expand on a theme that was not defined but was present in the original material. The idea of a fantasy Arthurian type feel was so good because it was achieved without a lot of "see this is like Merlin!" type stuff. Tolerating uncertainty is maybe one of the hardest things to do but it's rewards are sublime. 

Note that it was George Lucas making the decisions and coming up with the ideas on the stories , and it was Dave Filoni's job to get that vision onto screen. From the behind the scenes stuff I've saw this was totally George Lucas 's ideas. It was Rebels that Dave Filoni had more creative control over.

Edited June 22, 2018 by syrath

[nameless ronin 706]

On 6/12/2018 at 11:34 PM, Archlyte said:

I was speculating because I don't know at all what went on there but I am curious as to why they would make this error in judgment as I see it. It is regrettable to me that some people do not understand that sometimes more isn't better, it's just more, and that extra stuff creates problems down the road. George has pulled plenty of bad moves in the past so yeah. I do believe you though, and it makes me adjust my understanding so I think that means we both get something out of the exchange, you taught me and I learned. 

Less is not more storylines. No storylines means no more products. The main reason for any and all scenarios being written is to create more product, not to define anything. However, and I get that you might disagree on this, most fans don’t want more content that’s only connected to SW because it happens in that universe. They want the themes that make Star Wars Star Wars to be explored further. And that requires committing to things, up to a point - it’s a shaping process. You may not like some of the shapes being committed to (keep in mind that very little in the SW mythos is actually rigidly and strictly defined; almost everything is something that is believed to be true, but doesn’t have to be - it really is a matter of shape) and you don’t have to like everything, but the massively overwhelming part of what comes out of Lucasfilm’s hat is stuff the fans want and like.

[Archlyte 1,227]

8 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

Less is not more storylines. No storylines means no more products. The main reason for any and all scenarios being written is to create more product, not to define anything. However, and I get that you might disagree on this, most fans don’t want more content that’s only connected to SW because it happens in that universe. They want the themes that make Star Wars Star Wars to be explored further. And that requires committing to things, up to a point - it’s a shaping process. You may not like some of the shapes being committed to (keep in mind that very little in the SW mythos is actually rigidly and strictly defined; almost everything is something that is believed to be true, but doesn’t have to be - it really is a matter of shape) and you don’t have to like everything, but the massively overwhelming part of what comes out of Lucasfilm’s hat is stuff the fans want and like.

I see your point but basically it seems like you are saying that everyone has an opinion but they put out stuff so yeah. My assertion is that they made a bad move with this storyline when they could have done something different in its place that was better. 

[nameless ronin 706]

13 hours ago, Archlyte said:

I see your point but basically it seems like you are saying that everyone has an opinion but they put out stuff so yeah. My assertion is that they made a bad move with this storyline when they could have done something different in its place that was better. 

That’s fine, you don’t have to like everything. My point though is that fans want new stuff, and more new stuff is going to define/explain/specify/narrow/expand on the Force more. It’s inevitable. It seems to be a major focus for the new trilogy too. So, not liking every new thing we get told about the Force is fine - not liking that we get told new things about the Force on the other hand, means you might as well stop consuming any new content from now on.

[Daeglan 5,950]

On 6/22/2018 at 2:31 PM, Archlyte said:

I see your point but basically it seems like you are saying that everyone has an opinion but they put out stuff so yeah. My assertion is that they made a bad move with this storyline when they could have done something different in its place that was better. 

You still seem to be focused on believing the claims of 3  entities. With no real evidence to back up those claims. Did they have powerful force abilities? Yes. Does that mean they were the force? No. Do you believe the claims of everyone who says they are a god? I dont. Extraordinary claims require extraordinay evidence. Which we did not get.

Also it was pointed out that a white flash at the beginning and end of the episode. So it is quite likely it was a mental journey. Also all the stuff on Lothal tells us is they are previously known entities by the Jedi. Nothi.g more. 

[Raicheck 105]

Really simple, if you don't want them in your game's canon.  Don't use them.  If you do, use them.  

[syrath 1,316]

Well the net trilogy George would have done was going to go delve into the microbiome of the force a lot more. 

[Archlyte 1,227]

On ‎6‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 2:19 AM, nameless ronin said:

That’s fine, you don’t have to like everything. My point though is that fans want new stuff, and more new stuff is going to define/explain/specify/narrow/expand on the Force more. It’s inevitable. It seems to be a major focus for the new trilogy too. So, not liking every new thing we get told about the Force is fine - not liking that we get told new things about the Force on the other hand, means you might as well stop consuming any new content from now on.

That's really baby with the bathwater though. It's a process of filtering that most people do with this stuff. There are so many sources and contradictions throughout all of the legends content and what not. It's fine to like or not like something. 

[Archlyte 1,227]

13 hours ago, Raicheck said:

Really simple, if you don't want them in your game's canon.  Don't use them.  If you do, use them.  

That is simple, and it wasn't what the thread is about though. My point was that if you remove yourself from the situation of being a fan looking at content and just look at the content, then you can make a decision (good or bad0 about that content. I personally don't like the Mortis storyline because it's a symbolic piece that they tried to say was just symbolic but then put in an objective form on Lothal. It was the jumping off point of some of the other things I felt were weak like the Force Wolves. 

[Archlyte 1,227]

16 hours ago, Daeglan said:

You still seem to be focused on believing the claims of 3  entities. With no real evidence to back up those claims. Did they have powerful force abilities? Yes. Does that mean they were the force? No. Do you believe the claims of everyone who says they are a god? I dont. Extraordinary claims require extraordinay evidence. Which we did not get.

Also it was pointed out that a white flash at the beginning and end of the episode. So it is quite likely it was a mental journey. Also all the stuff on Lothal tells us is they are previously known entities by the Jedi. Nothi.g more. 

I think those paintings on Lothal witnessed by characters without a white flash kind of invalidates that, don't you think?

 

[nameless ronin 706]

3 hours ago, Archlyte said:

That's really baby with the bathwater though. It's a process of filtering that most people do with this stuff. There are so many sources and contradictions throughout all of the legends content and what not. It's fine to like or not like something. 

It sure is. I much prefer the now Legends Order 66 that doesn’t involve implanted chips over the Clone Wars version that became canon myself. I’m just saying that the less is more approach to finding out about the Force is not going to happen as long as more SW content gets released.

[Nytwyng 5,759]

6 hours ago, Archlyte said:

I think those paintings on Lothal witnessed by characters without a white flash kind of invalidates that, don't you think?

 

Not at all.

That the beings exist(ed), and appeared in artwork and were perceived as archetypes by some Force users does not make their claims inherently factual.

[Daronil 307]

I can't remember off the top of my head - did other characters perceive the Mortis gods (in the painting) as having changed in Rebels? Or was it just Ezra? I have a feeling the Malcolm-McDowell-voiced Imperial historian made mention of it, but I could be imagining that.

Edited June 25, 2018 by Daronil

[Nytwyng 5,759]

4 minutes ago, Daronil said:

I can't remember off the top of my head - did other characters perceive the Mortis gods (in the painting) as having changed in Rebels? Or was it just Ezra? I have a feeling the Malcolm-McDowell-voiced Imperial historian made mention of it, but I could be imagining that.

He and Sabine both noted it during their "I'm smarter than you" conversation.

[Daronil 307]

1 hour ago, Nytwyng said:

He and Sabine both noted it during their "I'm smarter than you" conversation.

Thanks, Nytwyng. 

Even with the Mortis gods able to effect change in "the real world", I don't think that indicates that they are the Force. Yoda's manifestation in TLJ was pretty freakin' powerful, and Obi-Wan said he would "become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" if Vader killed him. We still don't know the details of all this - and perhaps never will. But either way, I can't see why the Mortis gods can't just be uber-powerful Force users from the past who can still have an effect on the world now. Maybe they interact via visions, maybe they interact via time-travel (like the Prophets from Star Trek's DS9), maybe they live in the "world between worlds". Doesn't really matter, for the purposes of canon / gaming. 

[TheSapient 596]

24 minutes ago, Daronil said:

Thanks, Nytwyng. 

Even with the Mortis gods able to effect change in "the real world", I don't think that indicates that they are the Force. Yoda's manifestation in TLJ was pretty freakin' powerful, and Obi-Wan said he would "become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" if Vader killed him. We still don't know the details of all this - and perhaps never will. But either way, I can't see why the Mortis gods can't just be uber-powerful Force users from the past who can still have an effect on the world now. Maybe they interact via visions, maybe they interact via time-travel (like the Prophets from Star Trek's DS9), maybe they live in the "world between worlds". Doesn't really matter, for the purposes of canon / gaming. 

Besides, all three of them died.  The Force didn't die.  How could they be the Force?  My feeling was they were ancient, powerful, largely insane force users who's home was some sort of vergence in the force.  

[Daeglan 5,950]

11 hours ago, Archlyte said:

I think those paintings on Lothal witnessed by characters without a white flash kind of invalidates that, don't you think?

 

Based on what? We dint know who painted them or how they saw them. You are making leaps of logic the data we have does not support. The space between worlds might be how they were seen.

[Daeglan 5,950]

1 hour ago, TheSapient said:

Besides, all three of them died.  The Force didn't die.  How could they be the Force?  My feeling was they were ancient, powerful, largely insane force users who's home was some sort of vergence in the force.  

Exactly

[Archlyte 1,227]

2 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Based on what? We dint know who painted them or how they saw them. You are making leaps of logic the data we have does not support. The space between worlds might be how they were seen.

I don't know man I didn't re-watch the episode and was just thinking that they had both seen it. But at this point what are you trying to assert anyway? If it's real I think it's bad, if it's not real I think it's bad.