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Ghostofman

The whole Imperial Army thing...

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3 hours ago, Ghostofman said:

Honestly this is descending into unneeded definitions. The Galactic Empire is, by nature, it's own construct. It mirrors certain real-world visuals and interactions because it is the extended Antagonist of the series. It's supposed to be "the bad guys" and so there's a prescribed method of interaction with both the "good guys" and "neutral parties" they need to take, both for their own in-story identity and critical roles in the story and pacing. 

But to say that the Empire is undeniably under a specific political and economic structure native to Earth has to be false because the Galactic Empire, at the end of the day, is not of Earth. So by nature there's other functions, systems and interactions in play that Earth can't really understand because it's just one world comprised of one sapient species. 

It's a mirror, a dark reflection, it's what Earth's Western Culture likes to see in it's legions of villainy. It's what we as Earthlings think a construct of it's type might be like. What we need it to be like for the actions and progression of the heroes to be relatable to us, the Earthling audience.

But to say the Empire IS this or that is a waste, because it always is and is not whatever it does and doesn't need to be for the sake of the story.

Imperial Rome, Inquisitorial Spain, European Imperialism, 30's and 40's Germany, 40's and 50's Russia, the list can go on as long as you like, because you'll always find SOMETHING that matches the Galactic Empire. The Empire is always going to be all of these things, and none of these things, because it's not about Politics, Economic Theory, Religion, or any of that. It's about needing a large unrelatable faceless legion under a single strong identifiable leader or two. It's about a seemingly unstoppable force being taken on (and ultimately defeated) by a bunch of relatable underdogs, usually by challenging that leader in a fairly direct fashion.

So it doesn't matter. The Empire is bad, they'll always dress like baddies, act like baddies, and sit around in comfortable chairs drinking aged alcoholic beverages while discussing how much better the Galaxy is because of them, because that's what they do. That's what we as the audience want them to do.

Until some nit-wit hack writer slips Palpatine's Manifesto past the story group, the details are just conjecture. All the Empire is, is what we want it to be: the bad guys.

I agree with this and I also do not, lol. I am totally with you on the idea of not going there with too much granularity and in the idea of watching the allegory or even direct inference. I do think that it is important for me to know some things the Empire is not in the way it appears in that part of the Galaxy (because to me it is different depending somewhat on what command or agency you are dealing with, what geography, what timeframe, and what the situation is). 

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23 hours ago, ThreeBFour said:

I have to agree with Cifer's additions to the list of Fascism above. But these 2 spoke to me as well. If there was disdain for the arts, why was so much of the Jewish People's artwork secreted away by the ruling class of the Nazi party? And yes propaganda says the Empire is perfect but that never stopped them from punishing those not of the Empire. It seems to be a general rule of thumb that those in power think to be above the laws they create, it happens in today's society no matter whether your nation is Fascist, Republic, Socialist, or Communist.  

Disdain for the arts is not the same as disdain for works of art. Totalitarian governments like their art, at least when it's in service of their propaganda and made by government mandated artists. What they really dislike are artists that they don't control or artists that work outside the norm, both are things that artists are usually known for. That's one of the reasons why Stalin killed all of the blind Ukrainian folk singers he could find or why the Nazis hated Jazz. Both are made by artists who don't serve the governments narrative, they need to be brought under control or killed off. While people who produce the art they want are elevated to the skies.

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14 hours ago, Dusk Raven said:

 

I thought the discussion was about ideological policies, not aesthetics. I'm not disputing the aesthetic associations, which is why I haven't actually disagreed with them at all - or talked about them. What I'm trying to say is in terms of policy - in terms of how the Empire affects the lives of its citizens - the original trilogy doesn't seem to have much to show. If there are such indications in the movies that I've missed, do let me know... but to me, the Empire was a very generic sort of evil. This isn't to say that the Empire didn't resemble the Nazis or their style, only that I couldn't see anything uniquely Nazi about them.

Of course, I'm sure the comparison would have been more obvious to people in the 70s...

 

Hypocrisy is often the order of the day when it comes to the corrupt, or to the extreme.

I am talking ideologogical policies. The policies and very structure of the Empire was based on Nazi Germany.

  • They institutionalized discrimination against all non-humans, including slavery and genocide, in some cases,
  • sought to wipe out an entire  group of people namely the Jedi and Force users in general (at least those that wouldn't serve the Emperor),
  • built up a huge military machine for the sole purpose of conquest.  

Sound familiar? 

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Ok, so, to get this back on track...

Imperial Army Infantry is certainly something you can have in your campaign if it takes place in the first 10-15 years of the Empire.

If you're playing around the time of A New Hope, it'll be mostly phased out in favor of Stormtroopers.

(of course, that said, you're free to do whatever you want in your own campaign)

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40 minutes ago, OddballE8 said:

Ok, so, to get this back on track...

Imperial Army Infantry is certainly something you can have in your campaign if it takes place in the first 10-15 years of the Empire.

If you're playing around the time of A New Hope, it'll be mostly phased out in favor of Stormtroopers.

(of course, that said, you're free to do whatever you want in your own campaign)

I agree, but i think it's concievable that in some underfunded or forgotten sectors of the outer rim you can still have infantry seprated from stormtroopers even in the New Hope Period, like in the Minos Cluster, or the Kathol sector, or other depressed sectors. 

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16 minutes ago, Lareg said:

I agree, but i think it's concievable that in some underfunded or forgotten sectors of the outer rim you can still have infantry seprated from stormtroopers even in the New Hope Period, like in the Minos Cluster, or the Kathol sector, or other depressed sectors. 

I would actually go with the "middle ground" sectors having IA infantry. In the most developed of the Core Worlds and Colonies, you have your 'elite' stormtroopers because these worlds are so darn important. In the outback of the Outer Rim you don't trust the locals to form standing armed forces, so again stormtroopers are the answer. In the quiet and (presumably) loyal sectors in-between these extremes (like the Inner Rim, Expansion Region, and Mid Rim), local boys and girls can certainly fill roles in a standing infantry even through the time of Endor and beyond.

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34 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

I would actually go with the "middle ground" sectors having IA infantry. In the most developed of the Core Worlds and Colonies, you have your 'elite' stormtroopers because these worlds are so darn important. In the outback of the Outer Rim you don't trust the locals to form standing armed forces, so again stormtroopers are the answer. In the quiet and (presumably) loyal sectors in-between these extremes (like the Inner Rim, Expansion Region, and Mid Rim), local boys and girls can certainly fill roles in a standing infantry even through the time of Endor and beyond.

It would also depend upon time frame and other factors.

Just a few examples:

In Solo the IA was pretty solidly a significant portion of the fight on Mimban, with Stormies mixed in there too. So in that period it was still pretty obviously a thing, or at least very much in transition.

In Rebels we see a lot more Stormies on Lothal, but still those "Imperial Combat Drivers" and Cadets that wear a helmet very middle ground between Army and Stormie. Stormies are much more present here though, likely because of the vehicle factories as well as the developmentally work going on with the TIE advanced and Defender programs. To disqualify the Army entirely is a but much though, as the "combat drivers" are also doing speederbike patrols, which is much more of a motorized/mechanized infantry function rather than a role for dedicated vehicle operators. Later in the series these guys are totally offset by stormies though, as the defender program gets into full swing and the Rebellion becomes a thing that's more actively targeting Lothal. Other troopers appear after Rogue one as well.

Rogue One seems to show us no Imperial Army at all, but is the first film to really expand the Stormtrooper Corps to include Special Ops, stormtrooper vehicle operators, and wet-weather equipped troopers. Of course the only three locations we really see a serious imperial presence are Jedah, where it's an occupation with an active, and rather nasty sounding insurgency, and a pair of special project bases, which are both priority locations that would have Stormies over regulars anyway...

 

 

 

 

 

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I'd say that the only place you'll find any kind of "militia" forces under Imperial control is the core worlds, and there it's basically just police forces (albeit very militarized ones) that are there to keep the peace.

And that's only because those worlds are firmly Empire loyal.

Anywhere else, Stormtroopers do all the policing and military duties.

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Then what's the Marshal career supposed to do? In fact, what does the Imperial Peace-Keeping Certificate (aka Bounty Hunter license) mean?

I think the Empire works best if you view it as an empire - they have ultimate control, but they're mainly concerned with the big picture and their main threat is "Don't make me come over there...". Colonies that send their taxes, don't rebel and are little more interesting than a speck of galactic dust get mostly ignored, with a token presence at best. Stormtrooper garrisons are for worlds and installations that are in some way actually important.

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On ‎7‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 2:13 PM, OddballE8 said:

Ok, so, to get this back on track...

Imperial Army Infantry is certainly something you can have in your campaign if it takes place in the first 10-15 years of the Empire.

If you're playing around the time of A New Hope, it'll be mostly phased out in favor of Stormtroopers.

(of course, that said, you're free to do whatever you want in your own campaign)

Phased out because the plan would be for the special Stormtrooper units to be increased in size until they made up all of the combat arms forces? I like the idea of the Gray Troopers so I wouldn't do this, but I am interested in your explanation as to why that would be. 

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People already discussed this on the first page. The Imperial Army was made up of the old Planetary Defence Forces of the Republic, so it makes sense you'd want to strip them of their loyalties to their homeworlds. What better way to do that than by remodelling them into a military force based on the clones? The galaxy has positive associations with them (they defeated the droids!), and they were homogenous and obedient with no ties to anything but their military service- exactly what the Empire wants from its troopers.

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14 hours ago, Archlyte said:

Phased out because the plan would be for the special Stormtrooper units to be increased in size until they made up all of the combat arms forces? I like the idea of the Gray Troopers so I wouldn't do this, but I am interested in your explanation as to why that would be. 

Well, yeah.

Stormtrooper corps are to be made up of instensely loyal troops brought up under the new regime and consists of clone troopers until that can happen..

But they also have a pretty massive force of old clone war veterans (it wasn't all clones, you know) and militias that might not be very loyal to this new empire. So what better way to use them than to put them in the Imperial Army Infantry and pretty much use them to bring rebellious systems under control while simultaneously not only removing those militias and troopers from their home systems, but also grinding them down by using them as expendable troops.

I too like the idea of gray troopers, but if you look at the Original movies, the only time you see anyone who's not a Stormtrooper in Imperial service, they're either Maintenance staff, Navy or Armored vehicle personnel. By the time the Original movies take place, the vast majority of ground forces are made up of Stormtroopers.

And it makes sense. They're homogeneous, obedient and faceless.
 

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Generally i agree Oddball,  but remember that in the Original movies we only see locations that are supervised by the most important imperial commanders (Tarkin, Vader and the Emperor himself) so it makes sense that you would have only stormtroopers there. In some queit place in the midrim you might still find Imperial infantry even in the Original Trilogy, if it suits your game. 

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5 hours ago, Lareg said:

Generally i agree Oddball,  but remember that in the Original movies we only see locations that are supervised by the most important imperial commanders (Tarkin, Vader and the Emperor himself) so it makes sense that you would have only stormtroopers there. In some queit place in the midrim you might still find Imperial infantry even in the Original Trilogy, if it suits your game. 

One could argue that there were Stormtroopers on Tatooine long before the arrival of Vaders and Leias ships... 
And that's hardly a place that's high up on the list of important places in the galaxy.

Sure, you could make the argument that those Stormtroopers came with Vaders ship, but then it begs a few questions.
How did they get so worn and dirty so quickly? And why would Vader have Sandtroopers on his ship when we never see them again? And did they bring the Dewbacks or did they procure them locally? And if they did procure them locally, that was pretty damned quick work.

No, Tatooine had Sandtroopers way before Vader arrived in Ep IV.

And since you ONLY see Sandtroopers and no Imperial Army Infantry (or other Imperial presence for that matter), it stands to reason that Stormtroopers are the mainstay of Imperial presence even on backwater planets like Tatooine.


But I agree with your last statement, which I did also say in my previous statement.

Quiet places where the Empire has almost absolute loyalty will certainly have their own forces or possibly Imperial Infantry. But I'd wager local forces are more common since it won't cost the Empire anything in upkeep, since they're "locals"... so the local government will have to pay for those :)

That said, I did say from the start that whatever suits your game is fine.

I'm just trying to sort out what the canon situation would be.

Also, the lack of any sort of imperial infantry troops in Rogue One speaks volumes since they're on several planets that are not all that important. First, we see only Stormtroopers as guards in Jyn's prison... surely they'd put prisonguards from the imperial infantry instead of elite troops in a regular prison like that? It is, after all, described as "Only petty criminals get sent to Wobani. No one from that sledge hole could possibly be that important."
Secondly, there's only Stormtroopers on Ring of Kafrene, where Cassian kills that dude... and that's just a mining colony and trading post.
Thirdly, there are no other troops than Stormtroopers on Jedha. Sure, you could argue that it's an important installationg, but there's no other infantry there at all.

I still say that with the possible exception of the utmost loyal core or possibly mid rim planets, the Empire uses nothing but Stormtroopers for infantry duties (including police work)

Edited by OddballE8

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10 minutes ago, OddballE8 said:

Sure, you could make the argument that those Stormtroopers came with Vaders ship, but then it begs a few questions.
How did they get so worn and dirty so quickly? And why would Vader have Sandtroopers on his ship when we never see them again? And did they bring the Dewbacks or did they procure them locally? And if they did procure them locally, that was pretty damned quick work.

No, Tatooine had Sandtroopers way before Vader arrived in Ep IV.

And since you ONLY see Sandtroopers and no Imperial Army Infantry (or other Imperial presence for that matter), it stands to reason that Stormtroopers are the mainstay of Imperial presence even on backwater planets like Tatooine.

Depends on how we define backwater. After all, Tatooine is the home planet of Anakin Skywalker and also the domain of notorious gangster Jabba. I could easily see the hutt doing something that angered the Empire and them sending a few stormies as a garrison force simply as a "don't mess with us, we've got plenty more and can always alter the deal".

By the way, what canon are we currently talking? Because if it's FFG canon, the answer is actually pretty simple:

Quote

(Age of Rebellion, page 418)
Imperial Army Trooper:
The  common  citizen of the galaxy  will never  see  a  Star
Destroyer  or  a  stormtrooper  in  person,  if  they  are
fortunate.  For  the  majority  of  those  who  never  leave
a  planet's  surface,  the  Imperial  Army  trooper  is  the
face  of  the  Empire.  Stormtroopers  and  starships  can
be  seen  in  promotional  materials,  but  it  is  the  stern
and  unforgiving face of the Army  infantry that  enforces
the  will  of  the  Emperor  on  a  planet's  surface.  For  that
reason,  it is the  men  and  women  of the  Imperial  Army
whom  Alliance  personnel  must  combat.

 

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1 hour ago, Cifer said:

Depends on how we define backwater. After all, Tatooine is the home planet of Anakin Skywalker and also the domain of notorious gangster Jabba. I could easily see the hutt doing something that angered the Empire and them sending a few stormies as a garrison force simply as a "don't mess with us, we've got plenty more and can always alter the deal".

By the way, what canon are we currently talking? Because if it's FFG canon, the answer is actually pretty simple:

 

Tattooine had been recently annexed by the Empire- it wasn't a republic planet, so it wouldn't have a pre-existing PDF to be converted into the Imperial Army, and would have gone straight to Stormtroopers/Sandtroopers. Easy.

Surely nobody puts FFG canon above *actual* canon.

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6 hours ago, Cifer said:

By the way, what canon are we currently talking? Because if it's FFG canon, the answer is actually pretty simple:

That is actually how I was treating the Empire's military in my game. I told my players that you will find more Imperial Army soldiers than stormtroopers. If you do, it is probably a good idea to get out of dodge.

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Going back to the old West End Games source material on Tatooine it's specified that Tatooine had an Imperial governor in (I believe) Anchorhead, and his total military force consisted of a single squad of stormtroopers. So while there was an Imperial presence before ANH, I think that's what you could safely refer to as a token force.

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I know we long ago crossed into neither-here-nor-there, but going back to at least the 80s, the public impression was that the Empire was nowhere near Tatooine until the blockade runner drew it. The audience interpreted Stormtroopers as the "detachment" sent to chase the escape pod.

As chapters get inserted over the years, Microscope-style, of course, locales tend to become more populated and interconnected. So while I personally don't like the idea of an Imperial presence, it's probably got validity on some fictional level.

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A deleted scene from Episode IV has either Biggs or Fixer saying something to the effect of "I doubt the Empire would even fight to keep this system", which would imply that they already had some presence there.  Also, the map of Mos Eisley from one of those big illustrated books shows a sizable Imperial garrison already in the city.  

As to the main topic, I use stormtroopers for regular troops and 'Imperial army' for conscripts.  

 

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2 hours ago, Vorzakk said:

A deleted scene from Episode IV has either Biggs or Fixer saying something to the effect of "I doubt the Empire would even fight to keep this system", which would imply that they already had some presence there.  Also, the map of Mos Eisley from one of those big illustrated books shows a sizable Imperial garrison already in the city.  

Some presence, yes, but that might be a bored tax collector - you only need troops to keep something when either the populace is willing to rebel or someone else sends troops to take it from you. If the hutts are content with imperial rule (after having made sure their assigned governor is sufficiently content with his bribes), the Empire might not even need much of a military presence itself.

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