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Solo: was it murder?

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14 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

You're making an unsupported leap from there supposedly being no evidence against it to that being enough to consider it true.

He explicitly said that isn't what he's doing - just that so far, Corellia has not been shown to not contain a Space Texas that's beyond the little part depicted in the movie, so it might still do so. Not must, just might.

What I find somewhat odd is you first arguing that the new EU moves away from stereotyping entire cultures based on very small samples, but then turning around and insisting that we should now judge what the entirety of Corellia is like (or not like) from the sample of one slum and one spaceport on a planet of presumably billions.

Edited by Cifer

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1 minute ago, Stan Fresh said:

You're making an unsupported leap from there supposedly being no evidence against it to that being enough to consider it true.

It's the flying spaghetti monster fallacy in a galaxy far, far away.

What evidence? Solo? We saw 15 minutes of a movie that took place entirely within a single part of a city

That's like saying because I watched an episode of Jessica Jones I should assume the whole of planet Earth is a mish-mash of skyscrapers and tenements with a sleazy bar on every corner. 

I'll repeat, since you seem to keep missing it: I do not think all of Corellia is "Space Texas". I have, in fact, never argued that ANY of Corellia is "Space Texas". I am pointing out that saying it's NOT "Space Texas" because of the events of Solo is an unwarranted and unsupported extrapolation.

If there's a fallacy being committed here, it's the spotlight fallacy where you're assuming that a small subset of data represents the whole, and thus incorrectly exluding other possible data points. 

I don't know if you've ever watched Stargate: SG-1, but there's an episode called Solitudes, where two characters are marooned on what they think is an ice-planet, ala Hoth. They lose hope of rescue or survival, because the planet is covered in ice and they'll freeze before anyone can find the right gate to rescue them. 

Of course, they have inadvertently gated to a second gate in the Antarctic. They make the same mistake you're making in assuming that the whole planet is icy because the bit they're in happens to be that way. Just as you're assuming the rest of Corellia can't be different to the tiny bit we've seen in Solo. Like I've repeatedly said, the rest could be Space Texas, or Space Serengeti, or Space Hobbiton for all we know. 

You tried to turn that around by saying Alderaan could be Thunderdome beyond the little bit of it we've seen, and then discounted the fact that we have no other evidence of an Alderaanian Thunderdome (which is ridiculously unrealistic) while we do have at least EU/Legends evidence of "Space Texas" (which is not unrealistic). But you dispute the Legends evidence simply because it's Legends; not because it's unrealistic, or because it is debunked by anything else* - just because it's Legends. 

And again, before you pull out the "If you can only fall back on Legends, blah, blah..." card, I am not falling back on Legends. I'm saying that in the absence of contradictory evidence, and in the instance the Legends claim isn't extraordinary, there is no reason to discount it.

* And no, it's not debunked by Solo, for the reasons I outlined in the first couple of paragraphs. "x is in y"  is not the same as "x = y"

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Can we please move back to "Solo: was it murder?" instead of this "Corellia: was it Space Texas?" tangent? Both sides have made their points repeatedly and the odds of either conceding anything is less likely then successfully navigating an asteroid field.

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4 hours ago, Sturn said:

Can we please move back to "Solo: was it murder?" instead of this "Corellia: was it Space Texas?" tangent?

Actually I think everything's been said about the first topic too.  Times like this I wish the OP could close their thread.

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26 minutes ago, whafrog said:

Actually I think everything's been said about the first topic too.  Times like this I wish the OP could close their thread.

You can actually ask the devs to. They've done it for me in the past.

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On 6/18/2018 at 6:37 AM, Daeglan said:

Also with Becket self defense wise Han knew what he could do and was willing to do. Chewie was in danger and would be able to testify to that fact. One does not have to wait till someone points a gun at you to defend your self. You only have to establish their ability, desire, means to cause you or another mortal harm to act on it. IE a gang banger with in 30 feet of you saying they will kill you while you know they have a gun is justifiable homicide if you kill them. This is fairly basic self defense law. 

This is fairly basic american self-defense law. 
And it is beside the point, because the moment you are creating the situation in the first place, we are back to murder. So the guy in range and with intent to kill, sure you might be self-defense situation, unless you are as well the one who told him first that you killed his wife and will deal with his kids next. No matter his intent to kill you, you are still commit murder in your "act of self-defense", because you arranged for the need of self-defense in the first place. 

Provocation is no easy way out. And Han did arranged for the events to unfold this way. He could have walked away just fine instead, and I mean long before Becket had a hostage. 
Furthermore, Han killed anyway countless thugs on his heists, so if the last kill was murder or not ... is not important for the question if Han is a murderer, because he clearly is. He killed dozens in cold blood for personal gain. 

Edited by SEApocalypse

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5 minutes ago, Daronil said:

But to quote Arnie's character from True Lies: "Yes, but they were all bad!" :D 

So he was a pleasant murderer? I think this was what they went with in Star Wars Episode IV as well. ?

 

Oh and Stan, I think you are trapped in one of your feedback loops, when you start arguing to just win a discussion instead of learning something from the discussion. No point to chase that goose. Space texas became less likely, but it's not completely out of the window and that's it. Let's leave it at that. 

Edited by SEApocalypse

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1 minute ago, SEApocalypse said:

So he was a pleasant murderer? I think this was what they went with in Star Wars Episode IV as well. ?

Maybe they'll get Anthony Hopkins to play him in the Boba Fett movie. 

"An ISB agent tried to arrest me once. So I ate his liver with some ootoowergs and a nice Corellian whiskey..." :) 

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2 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Provocation is no easy way out. And Han did arranged for the events to unfold this way. He could have walked away just fine instead, and I mean long before Becket had a hostage. 
Furthermore, Han killed anyway countless thugs on his heists, so if the last kill was murder or not ... is not important for the question if Han is a murderer, because he clearly is. He killed dozens in cold blood for personal gain.

While I fully agree with the second, I'm somewhat uncomfortable with the first, because I really don't like the felony murder concept the US has, but also because I can't quite see where Han could have walked away just fine. There was one such spot explicitly pointed out when Beckett offered to go to Vos alone - after that point, he was on the inside and walking away would likely have earned him a blaster bolt.

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5 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

This is fairly basic american self-defense law. 
And it is beside the point, because the moment you are creating the situation in the first place, we are back to murder. So the guy in range and with intent to kill, sure you might be self-defense situation, unless you are as well the one who told him first that you killed his wife and will deal with his kids next. No matter his intent to kill you, you are still commit murder in your "act of self-defense", because you arranged for the need of self-defense in the first place. 

Provocation is no easy way out. And Han did arranged for the events to unfold this way. He could have walked away just fine instead, and I mean long before Becket had a hostage. 
Furthermore, Han killed anyway countless thugs on his heists, so if the last kill was murder or not ... is not important for the question if Han is a murderer, because he clearly is. He killed dozens in cold blood for personal gain. 

Walked away how? Lando had already left. And Han had dealt above board with Dryden 

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2 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Lando did ran away just fine. 

Lando was hired help and not included in the whole "You've botched things once, you deliver or die" deal of Vos.

... I wonder if Qi'ra paid him in advance.

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38 minutes ago, Cifer said:

Lando was hired help and not included in the whole "You've botched things once, you deliver or die" deal of Vos.

... I wonder if Qi'ra paid him in advance.

She did not, that's why he's trying to get his share from Han the last time they meet. Lando got royally screwed by that deal, it might have been the worst deal of his life. Except for you know, that other deal still in his future, the one that gets worse all the time.

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Just to clarify for those that aren't familiar with the original 1977 Star Wars (note that the name  A New Hope didn't exist at the time either) Greedo didn't even shoot!You hear a single shot and see a cloud of smoke and Greedo is in a slump and Ham walks away. 

This also mat be my memory as well but I  think an early edit from the first screenings was the addition of the Vader scene at the end of the fi!m showing him regaining control and flying away, I don't think was there , because I remember arguing with my best friend that Vader died in it and the next time I saw it it had that scene in it, given that I had went 3 times to see it and also my friend saw it about 6 months after me, I'm fairly sure they added that scene in to line up the follow up they never thought that they would make. 

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10 hours ago, syrath said:

This also mat be my memory as well but I  think an early edit from the first screenings was the addition of the Vader scene at the end of the fi!m showing him regaining control and flying away, I don't think was there , because I remember arguing with my best friend that Vader died in it and the next time I saw it it had that scene in it, given that I had went 3 times to see it and also my friend saw it about 6 months after me, I'm fairly sure they added that scene in to line up the follow up they never thought that they would make. 

I was only 5 when it came out, but I remember my father saying that everyone in the theater stood up and cheered when "Vader's ship exploded".  Many, many people who saw it on its opening week insist the same; but I've seen no evidence that a change was made.  I could totally be wrong, but I'm guessing that it's probably an early case of Mandela Effect.  

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I saw it in June of 1977 and remember Vader's ship flying away.  That would've been one **** of a distribution turnaround time frame for 1977.  Plus I read every scrap of everything that ever came out then and this is the first time I've ever heard this.

Edited by 2P51

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2 hours ago, Vorzakk said:

I was only 5 when it came out, but I remember my father saying that everyone in the theater stood up and cheered when "Vader's ship exploded".  Many, many people who saw it on its opening week insist the same; but I've seen no evidence that a change was made.  I could totally be wrong, but I'm guessing that it's probably an early case of Mandela Effect.  

I know there were documented changes shortly after release , but I'm thinking this was the first showings of it , I was 6 at the time.

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