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Partizan2

CotDP or BGotW

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I'm going to be back in the States this summer and I'll be looking to pick up a small AH expansion or two. So besides the Lurker (which hopefully isn't a bomb), which is a better buy, CotDP or BGotW? Neither seems to get a lot of love from the community. By the way, I already own the large expansions and KiY.

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I'd suggest you CotDP; the allies rock, and although the wording on some cards isn't  excellent, the game provides a lot of fun.
BGotW is, in my opinion, the worst expansion ever released for AH. No reasons why you should join the cult, and most of its mechanics are very slow to start in case you do not use the *official* herald. Some of the Unique Items are cool, but... I'll go definitely with CotDP

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Partizan said:

I'm going to be back in the States this summer and I'll be looking to pick up a small AH expansion or two. So besides the Lurker (which hopefully isn't a bomb), which is a better buy, CotDP or BGotW? Neither seems to get a lot of love from the community. By the way, I already own the large expansions and KiY.

Mmmm...  I'd recommend BGotW, but only if you're willing to use a custom component or two (otherwise you're never going to see those cult cards).

Amikezor made a corrupting herald recent, I have one or two older heralds that cause corruption.  And I have a remake of The Black Goat of the Woods custom herald that hands out cult cards and corruptions like candy (so they'll definitely see use if you play against it).  You can see it on my Arkham photobucket page.

http://s622.photobucket.com/albums/tt307/avi_dreader/

I'm not entirely sure why you don't just get both though ;'D since it wouldn't be that much of an additional expense.  I'm like an Arkham pusher, aren't I?

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Julia said:

I'd suggest you CotDP; the allies rock, and although the wording on some cards isn't  excellent, the game provides a lot of fun.
BGotW is, in my opinion, the worst expansion ever released for AH. No reasons why you should join the cult, and most of its mechanics are very slow to start in case you do not use the *official* herald. Some of the Unique Items are cool, but... I'll go definitely with CotDP

Oh Julia...  You really ought to have tried playing against *my* Black Goat of the Woods.  You'd find that all of a sudden the expansion was fun ;') maybe.

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Avi_dreader said:

Oh Julia...  You really ought to have tried playing against *my* Black Goat of the Woods.  You'd find that all of a sudden the expansion was fun ;') maybe.

I've seen it! And printed it! So please do not change EVEN this herald ::laughing::
Jokes aside, it's by far better than the original one. It's the corruption mechanic that makes me dislike the expansion. Don't know, I love tough games with increasing difficulties, but penalizing good characters... it's not my game!

Unless something changes. I mean, in the base game, if you are cursed, you can be blessed to remove this status. So there is a way to get rid of something nasty. In case you're corrupted, you can get rid of the corruption only by closing a gate with the matching dimensional symbol. Which is not that simple, simply because the gate you need might not be in play at all. So, bad luck cannot be avoided with a good strategy unless you're playing with Norman Withers.

And yes, bad luck can always force to game towards an unexpected direction (like in the game against your Creature in the clouds I had written about, a long time ago), but everytime something nasty happens, you have a new problem to deal with, and I think it's quite fun. With corruptions, most of the times you have to wait for something to happen, which is quite frustrating

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Julia said:

 

Avi_dreader said:

 

Oh Julia...  You really ought to have tried playing against *my* Black Goat of the Woods.  You'd find that all of a sudden the expansion was fun ;') maybe.

 

 

I've seen it! And printed it! So please do not change EVEN this herald ::laughing::
Jokes aside, it's by far better than the original one. It's the corruption mechanic that makes me dislike the expansion. Don't know, I love tough games with increasing difficulties, but penalizing good characters... it's not my game!

Unless something changes. I mean, in the base game, if you are cursed, you can be blessed to remove this status. So there is a way to get rid of something nasty. In case you're corrupted, you can get rid of the corruption only by closing a gate with the matching dimensional symbol. Which is not that simple, simply because the gate you need might not be in play at all. So, bad luck cannot be avoided with a good strategy unless you're playing with Norman Withers.

And yes, bad luck can always force to game towards an unexpected direction (like in the game against your Creature in the clouds I had written about, a long time ago), but everytime something nasty happens, you have a new problem to deal with, and I think it's quite fun. With corruptions, most of the times you have to wait for something to happen, which is quite frustrating

 

 

Well, here's a little trick if you want to master the corruption deck.  For the green cards, memorize the gate symbols of the worst corruptions (not hard, cross and slash— the easiest and hardest Gate, Dreamlands and R'lyeh).  And don't seal those gates if they pop open (because you might need them for later). That way if you get Creeping Doom, or Downward Spiral, you can get rid of it :')  Don't forget to buy a Naacal Key.

As for the other green corruption cards, many of them can be quite beneficial.

 

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Well,  sure, let's be even-handed here.   Julia said Cotdp,  Avi said BG or both,   so I'll take the final road and say....  don't buy either one.

 

Bgotw is really just silly with easily abused cards (Crowbar, perhaps?  Call AO?)  a corruption mechanic that doesn't work without a specific herald,  and a herald (this herald) that nobody wants to play with.   Everyone in my group hates playing with the BGotW herald,  and while we generally agree that the corruption stuff with BGotW is kind of interesting,   it doesn't make up for the agony of adding a doom with a monster surge.

 

I used to like CotDP,  but my wrath seems to grow daily.  Poorly written cards, and encounters/mythos that dramatically slow down a game that already takes 3 hours to play, not to mention completely breaking the tension.  The allies are allright,  but with the exception of certain characters,  (like Minh)  rarely see play.  Spells are the highlight,  but are still only ok,   Exhibit items soon loose their  appeal,  and pretty soon you'll find yourself happy to get an exhibit item purely for the reason that it's basically  a 1/7 chance at getting an Elder Sign.

 

For your money,  why not pick up another of FF's fine games,  instead of spending it on one of two mediocre expansions for a great game?  If you enjoy Arkham Horror,  you might really like Battlestar Galactica  (no knowledge of the show necessary).    Descent is another mostly-cooperative board game that's a lot of fun too.

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Avi_dreader said:

Julia said:

 

Avi_dreader said:

 

Oh Julia...  You really ought to have tried playing against *my* Black Goat of the Woods.  You'd find that all of a sudden the expansion was fun ;') maybe.

 

 

I've seen it! And printed it! So please do not change EVEN this herald ::laughing::
Jokes aside, it's by far better than the original one. It's the corruption mechanic that makes me dislike the expansion. Don't know, I love tough games with increasing difficulties, but penalizing good characters... it's not my game!

Unless something changes. I mean, in the base game, if you are cursed, you can be blessed to remove this status. So there is a way to get rid of something nasty. In case you're corrupted, you can get rid of the corruption only by closing a gate with the matching dimensional symbol. Which is not that simple, simply because the gate you need might not be in play at all. So, bad luck cannot be avoided with a good strategy unless you're playing with Norman Withers.

And yes, bad luck can always force to game towards an unexpected direction (like in the game against your Creature in the clouds I had written about, a long time ago), but everytime something nasty happens, you have a new problem to deal with, and I think it's quite fun. With corruptions, most of the times you have to wait for something to happen, which is quite frustrating

 

 

Well, here's a little trick if you want to master the corruption deck.  For the green cards, memorize the gate symbols of the worst corruptions (not hard, cross and slash— the easiest and hardest Gate, Dreamlands and R'lyeh).  And don't seal those gates if they pop open (because you might need them for later). That way if you get Creeping Doom, or Downward Spiral, you can get rid of it :')  Don't forget to buy a Naacal Key.

As for the other green corruption cards, many of them can be quite beneficial.

 

Avi_dreader said:

Well, here's a little trick if you want to master the corruption deck.  For the green cards, memorize the gate symbols of the worst corruptions (not hard, cross and slash— the easiest and hardest Gate, Dreamlands and R'lyeh).  And don't seal those gates if they pop open (because you might need them for later). That way if you get Creeping Doom, or Downward Spiral, you can get rid of it :')  Don't forget to buy a Naacal Key.

Thanks for the hint, Avi. Haven't noticed it yet, but I rarely play with BGotW

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awp832 said:

 

Well, sure, let's be even-handed here. Julia said Cotdp, Avi said BG or both, so I'll take the final road and say.... don't buy either one.

 

Bgotw is really just silly with easily abused cards (Crowbar, perhaps? Call AO?) a corruption mechanic that doesn't work without a specific herald, and a herald (this herald) that nobody wants to play with. Everyone in my group hates playing with the BGotW herald, and while we generally agree that the corruption stuff with BGotW is kind of interesting, it doesn't make up for the agony of adding a doom with a monster surge.

 

I used to like CotDP, but my wrath seems to grow daily. Poorly written cards, and encounters/mythos that dramatically slow down a game that already takes 3 hours to play, not to mention completely breaking the tension. The allies are allright, but with the exception of certain characters, (like Minh) rarely see play. Spells are the highlight, but are still only ok, Exhibit items soon loose their appeal, and pretty soon you'll find yourself happy to get an exhibit item purely for the reason that it's basically a 1/7 chance at getting an Elder Sign.

 

For your money, why not pick up another of FF's fine games, instead of spending it on one of two mediocre expansions for a great game? If you enjoy Arkham Horror, you might really like Battlestar Galactica (no knowledge of the show necessary). Descent is another mostly-cooperative board game that's a lot of fun too.

 

 

Actually... I'm releasing a custom Nyarlathotep herald that will make Exhibit items more active (I designed it to get around dilution), but I'm saving it for the league, so even though it's designed, I'm not posting it yet. Again, I'm not denying that the sets don't have flaws, but CotDP has excellent allies and some *very* cool mythos and other world encounters. Its barred mechanic has actually been incorporated in The Haunter of the Dark herald in Fan Creations (which I find mildly terrifying and quite exciting). I'm not saying that you should *definitely* buy them, but if you're willing to use a custom herald or two, *buy them*

No one will force you to abuse Crowbar with Ashcan Pete (just houserule that it doesn't work).  I would advise you either houserule Call Ancient One, or remove it from your decks entirely.  The badly worded CotDP cards aren't too much of a problem, most of their issues have been addressed in the proto-FAQ (and hopefully we'll get the rest, or most of the rest done by the time it's done).

 

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I think Black Goat is the worst expansion. It is the only small-box that has gate bursts though, which is neat. The rest of it... not as much as with other expansions. Get Black Goat eventually, but if you're trying to decide between the two...

Well, look at my avatar. And my sig.

;)

 

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awp832 said:

and a herald (this herald) that nobody wants to play with.   Everyone in my group hates playing with the BGotW herald,  and while we generally agree that the corruption stuff with BGotW is kind of interesting,   it doesn't make up for the agony of adding a doom with a monster surge.

 

Oi! Hush you lengua.gif ! BGotW Herald FTW!

What combo are you playing awp? Is doomer for monster surge really that big of a deal? I know I keep coming back to it, but Ghroth slaps you with 2 doomers during setup, BGotW Herald probably averages less than that for me (running everything but KH, in case someone doesn't know that by now) because monster surges just don't happen that much, with 20 unstable locations out there. Maybe I shuffle too well? My "best" is still 17 Mythos card game with 0 monster surges.

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Dam said:

awp832 said:

and a herald (this herald) that nobody wants to play with.   Everyone in my group hates playing with the BGotW herald,  and while we generally agree that the corruption stuff with BGotW is kind of interesting,   it doesn't make up for the agony of adding a doom with a monster surge.

 

Oi! Hush you lengua.gif ! BGotW Herald FTW!

What combo are you playing awp? Is doomer for monster surge really that big of a deal? I know I keep coming back to it, but Ghroth slaps you with 2 doomers during setup, BGotW Herald probably averages less than that for me (running everything but KH, in case someone doesn't know that by now) because monster surges just don't happen that much, with 20 unstable locations out there. Maybe I shuffle too well? My "best" is still 17 Mythos card game with 0 monster surges.

Not everyone plays speed Arkham.  If your strategy is more about shopping and building up investigators (offsetting this extra time expenditure with elder signs and eltdown shards), gate surges are more of an issue.  If I feel like running around like crazy, I can, as you said, play Ghroth :')

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Avi_dreader said:

Not everyone plays speed Arkham.  If your strategy is more about shopping and building up investigators (offsetting this extra time expenditure with elder signs and eltdown shards), gate surges are more of an issue.  If I feel like running around like crazy, I can, as you said, play Ghroth :')

 

But isn't the flipside that if you play the "English Patient" Arkham Horror lengua.gif (slow, tedious, boring, nothing ever happens) and you're not using the BGotW Herald, monster surges just buy you even more time to snooze around town? No doomers combined with even more time/chances to remove doomers, where's the tension/pressure in that? Doomers increase pressure, since each one is one less the GOO needs to wake up, whereas monster surges without BGotW Herald are freebie Mythos phases for the most part.

I do prefer "Speed" Arkham Horror because in that mode, you're under pressure to seal those gates, there is no time for lollygagging, either you're collecting Clues or exploring the OWs, anything else is a wasted turn. Double with the BGotW Herald, since even though monster surges aren't that common, at least they are not free Mythos phases like without the Herald.

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Dam said:

Avi_dreader said:

Not everyone plays speed Arkham.  If your strategy is more about shopping and building up investigators (offsetting this extra time expenditure with elder signs and eltdown shards), gate surges are more of an issue.  If I feel like running around like crazy, I can, as you said, play Ghroth :')

 

But isn't the flipside that if you play the "English Patient" Arkham Horror lengua.gif (slow, tedious, boring, nothing ever happens) and you're not using the BGotW Herald, monster surges just buy you even more time to snooze around town? No doomers combined with even more time/chances to remove doomers, where's the tension/pressure in that? Doomers increase pressure, since each one is one less the GOO needs to wake up, whereas monster surges without BGotW Herald are freebie Mythos phases for the most part.

I do prefer "Speed" Arkham Horror because in that mode, you're under pressure to seal those gates, there is no time for lollygagging, either you're collecting Clues or exploring the OWs, anything else is a wasted turn. Double with the BGotW Herald, since even though monster surges aren't that common, at least they are not free Mythos phases like without the Herald.

::Laughter:: I've seen The English Patient.  It's *way* more boring ;'D  Plus I only play three investigators and Epic Battle cards.  It's not that easy to neuter the game with my system.

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awp832 said:

For your money,  why not pick up another of FF's fine games,  instead of spending it on one of two mediocre expansions for a great game?  If you enjoy Arkham Horror,  you might really like Battlestar Galactica  (no knowledge of the show necessary).    Descent is another mostly-cooperative board game that's a lot of fun too.

If I could get Descent for the price of CotP/BGotW, you'd be right: Then I'd definitely get Descent. Unfortunately it isn't.

Thus, I'd recommend CotP. I only bought BGotW to be able play all of the second league scenarios.

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jhaelen said:

 

awp832 said:

 

For your money,  why not pick up another of FF's fine games,  instead of spending it on one of two mediocre expansions for a great game?  If you enjoy Arkham Horror,  you might really like Battlestar Galactica  (no knowledge of the show necessary).    Descent is another mostly-cooperative board game that's a lot of fun too.

 

If I could get Descent for the price of CotP/BGotW, you'd be right: Then I'd definitely get Descent. Unfortunately it isn't.

 

Thus, I'd recommend CotP. I only bought BGotW to be able play all of the second league scenarios.

 

 

I'd recommend BGotW if you're thinking about participating in the Fan Creation League and can only buy one.  Only two of the scenarios will use CotDP components.  Five will use Corruptions.  I decided to make it scenarios after all, because even though it's about ten hours of extra work for me to design them (I'm almost done now), scenarios are more fun :'D

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Partizan said:

I'm going to be back in the States this summer and I'll be looking to pick up a small AH expansion or two. So besides the Lurker (which hopefully isn't a bomb), which is a better buy, CotDP or BGotW? Neither seems to get a lot of love from the community. By the way, I already own the large expansions and KiY.

That depends.  What are you looking for?

If you're like many of the hardcore players and tend to prefer AH when it's breaking your arm while slamming your face into the table, go with Black Goat.  It has the most brutal Herald, and when the Herald is in play, the rest of the box components and mechanics work very well and will see decent use.  Black Goat is the only expansion with Arkham Location Gate Bursts that are not dependent on having another board in play, which makes the Black Goat Mythos cards mix BEAUTIFULLY with the Innsmouth Mythos, providing a greater Bursting threat without affecting the threat of the Deep One Rising Track.  Most of the Black Goat investigator cards are interesting, and there aren't that many: if you REALLY have a problem with a few of them, then just take them out.  (That's what I did.)  On top of all of that, the Dark Druid is a nifty monster that belongs in every Cup.

On the BG con side, Black Goat really doesn't work without the Herald, or any Herald not specifically designed to take advantage of the box contents and rules.  (If you will use custom components, Avi's Black Goat Herald works very well.)  So if you're not using a Herald, the box is reduced to a few Investigator cards and a somewhat generic but serviceable Mythos deck (that still enhances Innsmouth games in the best way).

If you're more into "lollygagging" and don't mind looking around once in a while (i.e. having Encounters), you might get more out of Dark Pharaoh's better-developed thematic cards.  Encounters that utilize the Exhibit, Benefit/Detriment, and Barred from Neighborhood cards are pretty common, and the Egyptian Museum Exhibition theme is prevalent throughout the Encounter and Mythos decks.  Most of the Spells are rather fun, the Allies are very good (and combine well with the few Dunwich ones if you don't play with anything else DP), and the only place you will find personal mano-a-mano battles with Ancient Ones (dual-colored Gate Encounters) is in this expansion.

On the DP con side, being the first expansion, it is RIDDLED with confusing language and bewildering mechanics.  Sometimes infuriatingly so.  (It took a couple attempts for FFG to work some of the bugs out of the AH Expansion process.)  I didn't find the Exhibit deck to have long-lasting appeal, I grew tired of the same 8 Benefit/Detriment cards over and over, and Barred from Neighborhood is a WRETCHED mechanic.  But, as with all things AH, your mileage may vary.

Obviously, I vote for Black Goat, but I think you'll get good use out of either product.

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My wife loves Dark Pharoah, and it's her small box of choice.I love the promiseof BGotW, but without the Herald it remains mostly just a promise. I love the corruption cards, but there is very little reason to actually join the Cult, and it can be difficult to join once you want to. If you go with BG, definitely download Avi's herald for play with the expansion. Or, design some custom rules of your own to encourage joining up with the cult (i've got a few I'm working on, and I definitely feel that any encoutner at the Woods/Isle/cave should allow for paying the costs to join the culty without hoping to draw into it).

Both expansion have their flaws, and their benefits. CotDP has a better storytelling mechanic, BGotW has the most brutal herald (love it!!). Decide what kind of game you want, then pick your expansion based on that decision.

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