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Hold Your Ground + Frontal Assault - New Support Units For Each Faction

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2 hours ago, Jake the Hutt said:

Good points. The thing is the Laser just doesn't do very much damage. Against a Storm Trooper squad in cover it only does .67 damage (and only 1.07 if it Aims). Against Speeder Bikes it's 1.43 damage (or 2.05 if it Aims). So I feel like 1 on 1 the Laser loses against either of those units without actually doing serious harm in return. The Storm Troopers might lose 3 guys, but they're more likely to lose just two. The Laser will probably do 2-3 damage to the bikes. Thats not a particularly good trade for the Rebels, and both of those Imperial units are still going to be a threat after. But that is in isolation. As you said, it should be protected by other units. And maybe clever placement of multiple Lasers can create a really nasty overwatch grid?

Maybe the threat of the standby Laser will be enough to make it worthwhile as an area denial piece? Although honestly, I'd mostly just ignore it. It is worth noting that the Barrage generator does make it much  more effective at killing Storm Troopers (1.00 damage against Storm Troopers in cover) and bikes (1.93 damage), and the extra Suppression certainly helps. So that might be a the best build. Of course, that puts it at 7 more points than a full Z-6 squad.

The laser cannon is essentially an in-game artillery piece meant to take down armor. If you are paying 70 points for range 4, impact 2, and 5 black dice, and decide to attack troopers instead, you aren't getting the best value unless you are adding suppressive to the attack. Even then, you are likely to put 2 suppression tokens on a squad which is quite effective. 

I'd also point out that you can take 6 Z6+trooper squads for 432 points, which leaves almost half your points for a commander and support, so taking 1 or 2 of these is a better investment than an AT-RT if you can place it properly. Rebels desperately need a better impact unit, and this is it. The AT-RT laser is fine, but you want all 3 dice to hit. The laser cannon with overcharge has extra dice to spare, so you will frequently roll 3 crits. Or the barrage generator is arguably better than the flame thrower because you can do it at range 4 with 7 dice, compared to range 1 with a max of 12 dice.  

Plus, this unit works at full power until it is killed. It can't retreat, and loses all actions at 4 suppression tokens. 

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1 minute ago, Undeadguy said:

The laser cannon is essentially an in-game artillery piece meant to take down armor. If you are paying 70 points for range 4, impact 2, and 5 black dice, and decide to attack troopers instead, you aren't getting the best value unless you are adding suppressive to the attack. Even then, you are likely to put 2 suppression tokens on a squad which is quite effective. 

I'd also point out that you can take 6 Z6+trooper squads for 432 points, which leaves almost half your points for a commander and support, so taking 1 or 2 of these is a better investment than an AT-RT if you can place it properly. Rebels desperately need a better impact unit, and this is it. The AT-RT laser is fine, but you want all 3 dice to hit. The laser cannon with overcharge has extra dice to spare, so you will frequently roll 3 crits. Or the barrage generator is arguably better than the flame thrower because you can do it at range 4 with 7 dice, compared to range 1 with a max of 12 dice.  

Plus, this unit works at full power until it is killed. It can't retreat, and loses all actions at 4 suppression tokens. 

I don't disagree that the Laser Turret is meant as an anti-armor unit... I just don't think its a very good one (although its not like we have a huge selection). Unupgraded against the AT-ST it only does an average of 1.60 damage (and .87 if the model is in cover). Thats not awful, but its not great either, and  it means you'll be plinking away for a long time, even with  a pair of them, and on a lot of tables it may be pretty easy to avoid (although the AT-ST is a big target).  I would have expected it to have a little more punch for its points and its drawbacks.

 

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7 hours ago, Jake the Hutt said:

I'm disappointing that the Laser does less damage to enemy trooper squads then a Normal 6 man Rebel Squad with a Z-6. The Z-6 squad is only 2 points more but does MUCH better damage against enemy troopers in every situation (no cover, cover, dodge, aim, etc). I wasn't really expecting the Laser to be hugely better, but since it can't move and is about as expensive I was sure it wouldn't be worse. It is (unsurprisingly) better against Armor, but also not as much as I would expect. 

Except when they take wounds their damage rapidly decreases.

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I think we are going to see waaayyyy more Ewebs than Radar dishes on boards. If you calculate the points cost per expected damage inflicted per attack, the Eweb gives imperials unprecedentedly cheap access to decent dice. (Compare 19 points/hit for the eweb vs 24 pt/ht for speeder bikes, or 25 for a 6 man DLT squad.

If we look at the rebels, with the new turret you are paying 22.4 pts/hit vs a 6 man z6 squad costing you 19 points per hit.

So my takeaway is that the Eweb is giving imperials access to a heavy weapon that is far more efficient than anything in their current arsenal. Whereas the rebels are getting something that is less efficient and less mobile, while specializing in area denial and anti vehicle.

 

Finally, the Eweb can be added to a list simply by dropping 5 extra troopers off of your squads... a radar dish will require the rebel to drop an entire squad from their list to fit it.

 

Formula used: (sum(total number of hit/crit/surge sides on entire attack pool))/(8*point cost)

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Yes this totally neglects defense, but I consider that a wash since the Eweb is basically as tough as a naked stormtrooper and the Radar turret is squishier than a rebel trooper squad.

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18 minutes ago, Rettere said:

I think we are going to see waaayyyy more Ewebs than Radar dishes on boards. If you calculate the points cost per expected damage inflicted per attack, the Eweb gives imperials unprecedentedly cheap access to decent dice. (Compare 19 points/hit for the eweb vs 24 pt/ht for speeder bikes, or 25 for a 6 man DLT squad.

If we look at the rebels, with the new turret you are paying 22.4 pts/hit vs a 6 man z6 squad costing you 19 points per hit.

So my takeaway is that the Eweb is giving imperials access to a heavy weapon that is far more efficient than anything in their current arsenal. Whereas the rebels are getting something that is less efficient and less mobile, while specializing in area denial and anti vehicle.

 

Finally, the Eweb can be added to a list simply by dropping 5 extra troopers off of your squads... a radar dish will require the rebel to drop an entire squad from their list to fit it.

 

Formula used: (sum(total number of hit/crit/surge sides on entire attack pool))/(8*point cost)

Legion is not just about how effective a unit is per point. It's also about which other units compete for the same slot.


E.g. if you are already using 3 AT-RTs and can't live without them for whatever reason (e.g. mobility), it's absolutely irrelevant, how strong the Cannon is. You won't have a free slot for the cannon.


So the real questions are:

Is the Radar Cannon better than an AT-RT?

and

Is the E-Web better than a pair of bikes?

Edited by DerBaer

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7 hours ago, Jake the Hutt said:

I'm disappointing that the Laser does less damage to enemy trooper squads then a Normal 6 man Rebel Squad with a Z-6. The Z-6 squad is only 2 points more but does MUCH better damage against enemy troopers in every situation (no cover, cover, dodge, aim, etc). I wasn't really expecting the Laser to be hugely better, but since it can't move and is about as expensive I was sure it wouldn't be worse. It is (unsurprisingly) better against Armor, but also not as much as I would expect. 

They don't lose firepower unless they are dead, compared to the Satellite dish turret.

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7 minutes ago, DerBaer said:

Legion is not just about how effective a unit is per point. It's also about which other units compete for the same slot.


E.g. if you are already using 3 AT-RTs and can't live without them for whatever reason (e.g. mobility), it's absolutely irrelevant, how strong the Cannon is. You won't have a free slot for the cannon.


So the real questions are:

Is the Radar Cannon better than an AT-RT

and

Is the E-Web better than a pair of bikes?

Good point. ATRT rotary is 27pt/hit compared to turret at 22. Speeder bike is 24 compared to Eweb at 19.

 

so actually a similar efficiency bump. But still 19 is a level of efficiency that imperials just can’t get otherwise. 22 for the turret is nothing special for rebels.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Rettere

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28 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Except when they take wounds their damage rapidly decreases.

Thats true, and is a good point. The Z-6 squad only needs to lose 2 models to to be reduced to the same damage capability against troopers/speederbikes as the Laser Turret. But even after three models its just a  little worse off, and even when its down to just the unit leader and the Z-6 its still averages 1 Damage, which isn't a huge amount  less than the Laser Turret. And Rebels have the benefit of being mobile. They're way less likely to be stuck unable to fire on anyone for the entire game. I'm not saying the Laser Turret is awful, but I don't think it compares well to the basic Rebel Troopers. They don't compete for the same slots thankfully.

Edited by Jake the Hutt

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2 minutes ago, Rettere said:

Good point. ATRT rotary is 27pt/hit compared to turret at 22. Speeder bike is 24 compared to Eweb at 19.

In my opinion, there are more factors than that: Mobility and defense.

And you are calculating damage only vs. Troopers. What if you are shooting AT-RTs? E.g. a pair of bikes has impact 2, the E-Web has no inherent impact.

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1 minute ago, Jake the Hutt said:

Thats true, and is a good point. The Z-6 squad only needs to lose 2 models to to be reduced to the same damage capability against troopers/speederbikes as the Laser Turret. But even after three models its just a  little worse off, and even when its down to just the unit leader and the Z-6 its still averages 1 Damage, which isn't a huge amount  less than the Laser Turret. And Rebels have the benefit of being mobile. They're way less likely to be stuck unable to fire on anyone for the entire game. I'm not saying the Laser Turret is awful, but I don't think it compares well to the basic Rebel Troopers.

It might take a good diagram to show the fields of fire, but I’m thinking the extra range advantage of the turret compares favorably with other units (aka the AT-RT, since that’s the opportunity cost). An enemy trooper unit is potentially subject to 2 rounds of turret fire before it can shoot back.

If you happen to have overlapping fields of fire on two or three turrets, that would be area denial capacity far superior to three trooper units; not just for the range advantage, but also because it is so difficult to degrade as compared to the troopers.

I do wonder if they will be vulnerable to force choke though. 

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Just now, DerBaer said:

In my opinion, there are more factors than that: Mobility and defense.

And you are calculating damage only vs. Troopers. What if you are shooting AT-RTs? E.g. a pair of bikes has impact 2, the E-Web has no inherent impact.

The E-Web surges to crit though.

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12 minutes ago, DerBaer said:

So the real questions are:

Is the Radar Cannon better than an AT-RT?

and

Is the E-Web better than a pair of bikes?

I think these questions will be answered on player by player (or even list by list) basis. The just do different things.

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8 minutes ago, Deuzerre said:

The E-Web surges to crit though.

5 dice E-Web = average 0.625 Surges plus 0.625 natural Crits = 1.25 Crits

6 dice Speederbikes = average 0.75 Surges plus 0.75 natural Crits plus 2 hits with Impact = 3.5 Crits

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17 minutes ago, Derrault said:

It might take a good diagram to show the fields of fire, but I’m thinking the extra range advantage of the turret compares favorably with other units (aka the AT-RT, since that’s the opportunity cost). An enemy trooper unit is potentially subject to 2 rounds of turret fire before it can shoot back.

Only if there is no blocking terrain. An AT-RT can move around that terrain and still shoot, the Radar Cannon can't do that.

Edited by DerBaer

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6 minutes ago, DerBaer said:

Only if there is no blocking terrain. An AT-RT can move around that terrain and still shoot, the Radar Cannon can't do that.

This is why you put a large rock in your deployment zone and stick the Butter Dish on top of it.

Edited by Indy_com

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An then your opponent puts an even larger rock at the center of the table ...

... or your opponent chooses sides and chooses the side with your big rock in the deployment zone ...

... or you put that rock at a place, where you think your deployment zone will be in step 3 of the set up, and then you get a whole different deployment in step 6 of the setup.

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29 minutes ago, DerBaer said:

In my opinion, there are more factors than that: Mobility and defense.

And you are calculating damage only vs. Troopers. What if you are shooting AT-RTs? E.g. a pair of bikes has impact 2, the E-Web has no inherent impact.

Yes, I’m ignoring armor and cover equally. I’m not calculating damage against troopers (or any unit) I’m just calculating the expected number of hits+crits rolled. It’s a limited metric but I think it is the metric that highlights the unique thing that the Eweb brings to the table for imperials, while the rebel turret doesn’t really give them anything new and unique.

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2 minutes ago, DerBaer said:

An then your opponent puts an even larger rock at the center of the table ...

... or your opponent chooses sides and chooses the side with your big rock in the deployment zone ...

... or you put that rock at a place, where you think your deployment zone will be in step 3 of the set up, and then you get a whole different deployment in step 6 of the setup.

Then you place a big rock in both deployment zones to cover your bases.

Or a gigantic tower with LoS to everything on the board.

Or place the big rock last.

Edited by Indy_com

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9 minutes ago, Indy_com said:

This is why you put a large rock in your deployment zone and stick the Butter Dish on top of it.

I'd still prefer sticking it behind a barricade and doubling or tripling its durability and the amount of full dice shooting its can get back at its attackers.

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Just now, Zerker said:

I'd still prefer sticking it behind a barricade and doubling or tripling its durability and the amount of full dice shooting its can get back at its attackers.

You glue a barricade to the rock, and rule it as a barricade by itself.

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11 minutes ago, Indy_com said:

This is why you put a large rock in your deployment zone and stick the Butter Dish on top of it.

Butter mold. Not butter dish. That stick coming out the middle would force a shape to that butter. So it’s a mold. Let’s get our mockery right and set it to a high standard.

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Just now, Church14 said:

Butter mold. Not butter dish. That stick coming out the middle would force a shape to that butter. So it’s a mold. Let’s get our mockery right and set it to a high standard.

I went from 'Dish Cannon' to 'Butter Dish' already and now you want 'Butter Mold'?

It looks more like a robotic upturned umbrella to me.

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Just now, Indy_com said:

I went from 'Dish Cannon' to 'Butter Dish' already and now you want 'Butter Mold'?

It looks more like a robotic upturned umbrella to me.

Lemon squeezer?

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