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Companion in same space as a figure.

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Hello, if my opponent has  a Junk Droid in the SAME space as a figure and i want to shoot the companion does the enemy figure block line of sight to the droid companion?

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Posted (edited)

I don't find ruling for this. What I found (see references below) is that [1] doesn't apply because of [2], basically companion is not a object. That means when you draw line of sight you must follow [3] and [4]. This brings me to 2 scenarios:

  1. You hit 2 corners of the companion without passing through the enemy figure. So you have line of sight.
  2. You hit 2 corners of the companion but lines pass through the enemy figure. Hence you have no line of sight.

It sounds too convoluted to be like this. However I read an explicit rule in [5] but I read no explicit rule for the opposite case. 

[1] RRG page 6, "Attacking objects":

Quote

If a figure is in the same space as the token, the figure and token are targeted for attacks independently. Neither the figure nor the token block line of sight to the other.

[2] FAQ page 12, "Companion":

Quote

A companion is a new type of support figure

[3] RRG page 16, "Line of sight":

Quote

To determine line of sight, the player draws two imaginary, non intersecting lines from one corner of the attacking figure’s space to two adjacent corners of the target’s space.

[4] RRG page 16, "Line of sight":

Quote

If either of these lines passes through a wall, figure, or blocking terrain, then the figure does not have line of sight to the target.

[5] FAQ page 12, "Companion":

Quote

A companion does not block line of sight

 

Edited by Golan Trevize

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I'm pretty sure the correct answer is that the figure and companion can be targeted independently just like objects in the same space can.

Thus the extra ability of "Insignificant: You cannot be the target of an attack while in the same space as a friendly figure" on the R5 Astromech.

Note that the distance between companion and another figure in the same space is 1 (they are adjacent) while objects in the same space are only considered adjacent (distance 1) for Blast and Cleave. (Thus "on or adjacent" in mission rules.)

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1 hour ago, a1bert said:

Thus the extra ability of "Insignificant: You cannot be the target of an attack while in the same space as a friendly figure" on the R5 Astromech.

Your interpretation is much simpler and straightforward. As I said I found no evidence in manuals, so I hope R5 Astromech won't be the only evidence of this unwritten rule. Is there any way to ask for a FAQ?

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25 minutes ago, a1bert said:

I can ask for a confirmation. Whether this is too Insignificant to end up in the FAQ is for FFG to decide.

Yes please, I'm really curious to know this. I'm not sure we can apply an object rule to something defined as a "figure".

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Unfortunately, Insignificant doesn't actually provide a definite answer.

(only by inference can one assume that R5's ability and the targeting of other companions sharing spaces are connected)

It is possible, based on the rules listed by Golan above, that a companion cannot be targeted if the LoS intersects the space the figure they are under is occupying.

That said, if you can see two corners without intersecting the target space then I see no reason why the companion cannot be targeted. (unless it is R5)

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Posted (edited)
RRG, Line of Sight said:

To determine line of sight, the player draws two imaginary, non-
intersecting lines from one corner of the attacking figure's space
to two adjacent corners of the target's space. If either of these lines
passes through a wall, figure, or blocking terrain, then the figure
does not have line of sight to the target.

When you draw line of sight to a space the companion occupies, you are not drawing line of sight through a figure that is on the same space. (In the same way that you can draw line of sight into a space of blocking terrain when you target a figure or object occupying it as long as you are not drawing line of sight through the space or other blocking spaces.)

Edited by a1bert

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8 hours ago, a1bert said:

When you draw line of sight to a space the companion occupies, you are not drawing line of sight through a figure that is on the same space. (In the same way that you can draw line of sight into a space of blocking terrain when you target a figure or object occupying it as long as you are not drawing line of sight through the space or other blocking spaces.)

Is this a rule a1bert? Or something that derived from specific rules?

Let's assume I attack a regular figure, forget about companion.

Case 1: I can see 2 frontal corner so I have line of sight.

Case2: I can see 2 rear corners (lines pass through the target figure), I have line of sight.

I believe case 2 is possible because RRG says "A figure does not block line of sight to itself. The target figure also does not block line of sight.".

Now going back to the companion case, target here is companion and lines pass through a figure (the overlapping enemy figure) when you want to hit one of the rear corners (the one covered by the figure itself).

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Golan Trevize said:

RRG says "A figure does not block line of sight to itself. The target figure also does not block line of sight.".

Now going back to the companion case, target here is companion and lines pass through a figure (the overlapping enemy figure) when you want to hit one of the rear corners (the one covered by the figure itself).

Out of a space != through a space. Into a space != through a space. You can draw line of sight out of a blocking terrain space, and into a blocking terrain space (to e.g. attack from blocking space or e.g. attack into a blocking space, or e.g. attack a figure or object from a blocking space to the "next" blocking space although the spaces are not adjacent), but cannot draw line of sight through a blocking terrain space (into and out of the same space). In the same way "through a figure" only happens if the line of sight line both enters and exits the space the figure occupies.

For a small figure you are not drawing line of sight through a figure unless it goes into and out of the space the figure occupies. This can only happen if the figure is not in the target space.  This isn't enough for large figures though, for them you need the allowance to ignore all spaces the "source" and "target" figures occupy.

It's obvious to me and the tech editor Clipper that you can target objects and figures (including companion figures) in the same space without them blocking line of sight to each other. (Waiting to get Todd's "yes" to put this to rest.)

Edited by a1bert

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17 minutes ago, a1bert said:

Out of a space != through a space. Into a space != through a space. You can draw line of sight out of a blocking terrain space, and into a blocking terrain space 

That's a really good point, I've never thought about it this way. It makes sense.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, a1bert said:

It's obvious to me and the tech editor Clipper that you can target objects and figures (including companion figures) in the same space without them blocking line of sight to each other. (Waiting to get Todd's "yes" to put this to rest.)

I agree it should be obvious, but then why need a specific clarification about objects sharing the same space? (RRG p6)

Also, just because you are drawing LoS TO a space, does not mean you can't also be drawing a LoS THROUGH a space...

Edited by Majushi

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Posted (edited)

So just to to make sure I understand, take the following situation:

 

[ B ] [ B ] [ B ] [ B ]

[ B ] [ T ] [ B ] [ B ]

[ E ] [ E ] [ B ] [ B ]

[ E ] [ E ] [ E ] [ E ]

[ E ] [ E ] [ E ] [ A ]

 

B = Blocking Terrain. E = Empty Space, A = Attacker, T = Target Figure (who is on blocking terrain, say a mobile probe droid)

 

The attacker can draw line of sight to two corners of the target (the two on the left-hand side).  But to get to the back corner they need to go through what would otherwise be blocking terrain if there was no figure on it.  But what you're saying is that you're not actually drawing line of sight through the space in this case, but rather into the space?  And that's why it's valid to have line of sight?

 

If that's the case and I'm understanding you correctly, then yeah, the same rules should be able to be used with companions/objects/figures on the same space.

 

Edited by ManateeX

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Yes, you are drawing line of sight to a figure or object on blocking terrain by drawing line of sight to one space it occupies, effectively ignoring the terrain type of that space. (And you are never drawing line of sight through the target space, only into it.)

 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, ManateeX said:

And that's why it's valid to have line of sight?

Actually the why to this is explicitly stated at page 19, "Mobile".

Quote

If a figure with mobile occupies a space containing blocking terrain, line of sight can be traced to that figure

And consider that this is valid no matter what blocking terrain space the target is on in your example.

Edited by Golan Trevize

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, a1bert said:

And you are never drawing line of sight through the target space, only into it.

 

Technically aren't you doing both? I mean, because you reach the other "side" of the space, you have gone "through" that space.

 [ P ] [ B ] [E ]

 [ T ] [ B ] [ E ]

 [ E ] [ B ] [ E ]

 [ E ] [ E ] [ E ]

 [ E ] [ E ] [ A ]

So, in my mind to target T, A has to draw LoS to the two leftmost corners of T.

The bottom left corner is fine, but the top left corner you have to draw LoS through the space to get to it?

Compare to if you were targeting the bottom left corner of P. The exact same corner. You would be going through T to get to it.

Edited by Majushi

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