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How to...Triple Cymoon! (Chapters 1, 2 and 3)

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So after taking triple Cymoons to the local store championship again, some general thoughts: 

While the core concept of the idea is solid,  triple Cymoons have a serious problem with not having a real choice of first or second player.  At least with Darth Vader, you need to size up every match and determine where the restrictions favor going first (enemy last-first abuse) vs second (enemy objective dominance).  When you get your preference, it goes great.   When you don't,  it's a serious blow.  I think id we ever have a way to fix red dice for cheap at long range this list may become vastly more effective.

For serious tournament play, there is no good yellow objective.   Cap the VIP has serious flaws not only against Strategic squads, but also against Raddus Profundity drops that can put a mobile small ship on the point even when buried under your own ISDs. Contested Outpost and Fire Lanes force you to stay in place despite mobility being one of the key strengths of the ISD.

The ability to wrap your game up in an hour is a massive plus for long tournament days or those of us keeping odd hours.  This list plays fast and direct. 

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Having thought about the weekend and how the games went, I am considering dropping one of the Cymoons for a BT Avenger Kuat or a BT Avenger ISD1 with Ex racks. As most of the games have a close-range aspect that hurts the Cymoon.

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Placed second in a 8 man tournament with Mad Cats list. I was one tournament point away from first place but another regular pulled of a 400:0 and snuck past me.

First match was me against a Rbell bombert list. With hera. I was lucky my enemy made mistakes.


The bane of my existence was the second match where I faced two Motti ISDs with this in tow:
1 Boba Fett ( 26 points) 
1 IG-88 ( 21 points) 
2 VT-49 Decimators ( 44 points) 
1 Bossk ( 23 points) 
= 114 total squadron cost

Lets just say the two enemy ISDs were too far apart to catch them in a coordinated manner so the rogues went to town. I got one ISD and lost two.

Third match was my Solar Corona and I pressed a Ackbar list with aspiration - armored cruiser and two asault frigates against one table corner. The Corona swallowed an absurf amount of dice. I wedged my ISD against his Aspiration in a manner that we were locked in combat. His only option would have been to fly of the table, which he didn't do. This would have resulted in me also flying a ISD of the table :D
Gladly he missed it and the ISD was delayed just long enough to not fly of the edge in the last turn.

It was quite a lot of fun, and I got some raised eyebrows with the words "three big ones?" muttered multiple times.

Thanks to this post and its participants who got the idea rolling :)

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Im really intruigued by this build...and also a little concerned, so help me!

You guys were talking about bomber builds....it just so happens Im taking a bomber build to a tourney soon.  Can you let me know what my strategy should be vs tripCymoon with the following fleet....or am I screwed?

Thrawn Bombers (399/400)
=======================
Imperial I-class Star Destroyer (110 + 61)
    + Grand Admiral Thrawn (32)
    + Wulff Yularen (7)
    + Ruthless Strategists (4)
    + Boosted Comms (4)
    + Expanded Hangar Bay (5)
    + Chimaera (4)
    + All Fighters, Follow Me! (5)
Quasar Fire I-class Cruiser-Carrier (54 + 9)
    + Hondo Ohnaka (2)
    + Boosted Comms (4)
    + Disposable Capacitors (3)
Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 + 12)
    + Bomber Command Center (8)
    + Boosted Comms (4)
Dengar (20)
Major Rhymer (16)
Tempest Squadron (13)
9 x Tie Bomber Squadron (9 x 9)
Contested Outpost
Superior Positions
Most Wanted

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11 hours ago, Deadshane said:

Im really intruigued by this build...and also a little concerned, so help me!

You guys were talking about bomber builds....it just so happens Im taking a bomber build to a tourney soon.  Can you let me know what my strategy should be vs tripCymoon with the following fleet....or am I screwed?

Thrawn Bombers (399/400)
=======================
Imperial I-class Star Destroyer (110 + 61)
    + Grand Admiral Thrawn (32)
    + Wulff Yularen (7)
    + Ruthless Strategists (4)
    + Boosted Comms (4)
    + Expanded Hangar Bay (5)
    + Chimaera (4)
    + All Fighters, Follow Me! (5)
Quasar Fire I-class Cruiser-Carrier (54 + 9)
    + Hondo Ohnaka (2)
    + Boosted Comms (4)
    + Disposable Capacitors (3)
Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 + 12)
    + Bomber Command Center (8)
    + Boosted Comms (4)
Dengar (20)
Major Rhymer (16)
Tempest Squadron (13)
9 x Tie Bomber Squadron (9 x 9)
Contested Outpost
Superior Positions
Most Wanted

I faced a similar list in a store championship. See game 3.

Only the ISD-I and Quasar count for being tabled and the Cymoons will be coming for them as it is their only way to win. 7+ TIE-Bs will kill a Cymoon easily with 2 or 3 turns of attention and a little help from your ships. You must save your own ISD-1. That means don't get caught at slow speed where they can concentrate fire. Keep at speed 3 and try to get behind the Cymoon line. Don't go for a glorious close range shot with your black dice if it means your flagship getting rammed and shot to bits by all the Cymoons. Bank a nav token and maybe have a Thrawn Nav available too so you can turn tightly or jump from speed 1 to 3.

As the Cymoons approach select a victim, preferably on the end of his line with some open space where you can get past into relative safety. Start bombing it with long range attacks using your boosted comms. The Cymoons won't want to hang around at slow speeds taking this so they should come in fast. Don't get your bombers too far forwards and remember that your ISD-I may not wish to approach the Cymoon line head on to catch up with the bombers. As the enemy is about to get into range delay your ISD-I unit your last activation and then bomb and rush forwards (using Thrawn or Hondo Nav and your own squadron command) to get close to the victim but importantly facing your escape route. The escape is more important than getting a double arc or to black dice range as the bombers should doo the work. Next turn you as first player bomb, shoot and escape at high speed possibly with a Thrawn repair or nav command thrown in. Try to move away and in such a direction that the other two Cymoons are now not in a position to chase you. If they do they are going 'up hill' towards a retreating enemy who is lobbing bombers too and moving away at speed. If you are second player then you have to take a turn of fire before doing this but even if your victim ship runs for it the bombers can catch up.

All this time the Quasar should help but not get engaged. Don't approach the Cymoon line. Stay crossing their T and throwing bombers to finish off the victim Cymoon. Now your Quasar can run for it either attempting to get past the Cymoon line (not on the same turn as your ISD-I, you will die, do it the turn after) or try to turn away from the Cymoons and run in the other direction. Now the 2 surviving Cymoons can hunt your Quasar down and maybe kill it in a corner but they still loose the game 4-7. The flotilla can also stay uncommitted but let it die if he really wants it. After 2 turns of BCC bombing it has done it's job and a third turn of bombing without BCC should finish off that Cymoon.

So go for a 7-4 or a 6-5 but if you want more than that you will need enemy mistakes or to risk it all and possibly be tabled.

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On 8/19/2018 at 4:15 AM, thecactusman17 said:

So after taking triple Cymoons to the local store championship again, some general thoughts: 

While the core concept of the idea is solid,  triple Cymoons have a serious problem with not having a real choice of first or second player.  At least with Darth Vader, you need to size up every match and determine where the restrictions favor going first (enemy last-first abuse) vs second (enemy objective dominance).  When you get your preference, it goes great.   When you don't,  it's a serious blow.  I think id we ever have a way to fix red dice for cheap at long range this list may become vastly more effective.

For serious tournament play, there is no good yellow objective.   Cap the VIP has serious flaws not only against Strategic squads, but also against Raddus Profundity drops that can put a mobile small ship on the point even when buried under your own ISDs. Contested Outpost and Fire Lanes force you to stay in place despite mobility being one of the key strengths of the ISD.

The ability to wrap your game up in an hour is a massive plus for long tournament days or those of us keeping odd hours.  This list plays fast and direct. 

Hold on, this isn't the Dark Shpere Store Champs, by any chance?

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I thought I'd give my experience from a store championship yesterday. I had the Vader version with IF and Gunnery teams only. I ended up playing Blockade Run twice (other objectives were Contested Outpost and Solar Corona) and suffered because of it.

Game 1 - Vs Madine Star Cruiser Liberty, Tantive CorvetteB, 2 GR75, 6 YT2400, Rogue, Jan

I narrowed the battlefield by placing all obstacles bar the station on the middle left in a triangle then deployed the 3 Cymoons in a row with Vader on the far right (probably a mistake). He set up transports, all fighters and corvette roughly from the middle to my right on his deployment area and finally the Liberty on my far left pointing at the obstacles in order to flank me. I accelerated to speed 3 to try and herd the GR75's and Corvette. I also turned my leftmost ISD slightly left to encourage the Lib to go further wide. His transports and Corvette spent all game running to the back of the battlefield to keep as far away as possible while his bombers spent all game following and shooting my flagship and taking flak (braced by Jan). My ISD's pushed forward, Vader repairing on turns 3-5 (and dying turn 6), but only got 1 front arc shot vs his corvette leaving it on 1 hull. Didn't get to shoot the transports but he flew one off the battlefield because of it's shield dial while keeping away.

With last/first his Lib hit 2 debris fields then shot my left most ISD and ran behind all my ISD's. It took some rear/side shots which wiped out all it's shields except 1 so the only other action it did was to come behind my flagship on turn 6 and shoot 4 reds to finish it before running away.

Result 2 tokens for me, 1 for him: 58 - 175 for a 4-7

In hindsight I could have 

a) Started further back and slower to begin with the plan to cross the line on turn 6. From the back of the battlefield it would take 16 movement to do so, so could go speed 2 for 2 turns then speed 3 and repair for the remaining 4 turns. Whatever I do I would start getting bombed on turn 3

b) When the flagship started getting bombed I should have slowed the middle ISD down and moved it behind the flagship and then to it's right to try and create overlapping flak fields but this would have reduced my chance of actually shooting any ships.

 

Game 2 - Vs Cracken with 2AF Mk2B and 2 GR75 Comms with 6 A wings, 4 E Wings

Contrary to my previous plans, given that this was a carrier based fleet with just 2 combat ships I decided to be aggressive and try to push through the fighters to attack the carriers and table him. Needless to say  - this failed.

I set up the same as Game 1 but with the flagship as middle ISD. He set up with both AF heading right to left, 1 GR75 behind them and 1 his side of the obstacle field on the left. I came forward at speed 3 and he starting bombing the right most ISD with all fighters on turn 2, shooting with the AF side arcs red dice and turning away at speed 2 or 3. That ISD then died turn 3 so he could start on the left most one. I forked the left GR75 and left AF with the left ISD and killed the GR75 as he moved the AF away. I ended up in a chase with both AF who had the space to retreat and he was often able to shoot with the fighters then move them back to repeat on the next turn. Eventually he did end up out of activation range of the fighters but by then it was too late and I lost the left ISD too. I did get a few shots on 1 AF but not enough to do much damage to it as he was always able to run away due to first player.

 

Game 3 - Unsurprisingly a bye!

So in conclusion I don't think Blockade run works unless you try playing for a 60 point 7-4 win. Station Assault may be a better red objective. Also if a fleet wants to run away and kill you with fighters it's going to be a bad day for your Cymoons!

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2 hours ago, ManInTheBox said:

Hold on, this isn't the Dark Shpere Store Champs, by any chance?

No that was me with the bad day. I've posted my experience above.

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8 hours ago, Vae said:

So in conclusion I don't think Blockade run works unless you try playing for a 60 point 7-4 win. Station Assault may be a better red objective. Also if a fleet wants to run away and kill you with fighters it's going to be a bad day for your Cymoons! 

In Blockade Run you still have to kill enemy ships. It isn't Blood Bowl and scoring touchdowns is still only 60 points (or 40 - 20 if you loose a ship).

On your way to the end zone you could run over and kill any flanking ships by turning towards them. You have plenty of initial distance to line up on such a narrow table. Ignore those transports in front of you and steamroller the Liberty.

In your second game if you think the enemy will shoot and scoot using Bombers to fling at you then slow down so you don't have to endure bombers for so long. Aim to cross the line around turn 6 and entice him to come to you. If he doesn't do so then slow further or turn away from the end zone and score no touchdowns. Watch a goal line camper panic as he slowly realises. You are second player and you deploy further back from your deployment zone edge. If the enemy don't seem to come towards you then slow further and if it gets to turn 3 and he is still on the goal line or behind it you turn away and get a 6-5.  Quite difficult to bomb a Cymoon to death when it takes you 2 turns to realise they aren't coming your way and another few turns to cover the 36" distance and then start getting through those 11 hull, 12 shields and a repair command or two.

Edited by Mad Cat

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6 hours ago, Vae said:

No that was me with the bad day. I've posted my experience above.

 

2 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

Not unless there's a new store near San Francisco I haven't heard of.

Ah! I was trying to put a forum name to a face. I didn't think @thecactusman17 was a Brit, but the coincidence confused me.

Nice to put a work out who you are @Vae. I was the man sweating in a vest and shorts.

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19 hours ago, Deadshane said:

Thanks for the tips guys.

I even modified my list with Tua and ECM...actually like the new version better...THANKS!

@Mad Cat mentioned your list to me the other day and I'd thought I'd chime in. As the gentleman he played at the store champ, while also having won a local tournament with the Thrawn bomber, I'd thought I'd contribute:

Tua ECM is good. Glad you've got it.

Chimera and AFFM! is a bit of a waste. All your squads are speed 4. You don't need speed 5, especially since it costs so much (token, points). Sure you can use Chimera to swap it, but the list doesn't really benefit from any of the fleet commands enough to be worth the points.

Drop some squads and buy a generic Jumpmaster. When I ran the list with Dengar only, smart players started sniping him quickly. He's got scatter sure, but a medium squad presence played smartly will have him dead, leaving all your bombers locked down. To add to this, only one escort makes it even harder to protect him.

Speaking of squad builds, I took a flight controller on the Quasar. He really helps your squads chew through enemies. You'd be surprised by how much damage five bombers with black + blue can do to that one squad you need dead before you can start bombing, especially if you use strategist too.

Finally, as for beating triple Cymoon: pray your opponent has not played the list a dozen and a half times leading upto your battle. Your best hope is to isolate and destroy them one by one, while keeping your carriers at arms length and out of their forward. As @Mad Cat can attest though, with some experience, you'll have two Cymoons on your carriers every turn, since with nav they can be surprisingly flexible. What I'd recommend is to kill one Cymoon, then speed three out of there into their rear and keep the carriers safe for the rest of the game. The bombers might kill another ISD, but if you can kill one and escape you've one.

Oh, and if you get in medium and double arc'd, a Quasar can and will go up in smoke. In our game, @Mad Cat took a Quasar from unharmed to dead in one volley. So watch out for that.

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On 8/20/2018 at 4:21 PM, Vae said:

I thought I'd give my experience from a store championship yesterday. I had the Vader version with IF and Gunnery teams only. I ended up playing Blockade Run twice (other objectives were Contested Outpost and Solar Corona) and suffered because of it.

Game 1 - Vs Madine Star Cruiser Liberty, Tantive CorvetteB, 2 GR75, 6 YT2400, Rogue, Jan

I narrowed the battlefield by placing all obstacles bar the station on the middle left in a triangle then deployed the 3 Cymoons in a row with Vader on the far right (probably a mistake). He set up transports, all fighters and corvette roughly from the middle to my right on his deployment area and finally the Liberty on my far left pointing at the obstacles in order to flank me. I accelerated to speed 3 to try and herd the GR75's and Corvette. I also turned my leftmost ISD slightly left to encourage the Lib to go further wide. His transports and Corvette spent all game running to the back of the battlefield to keep as far away as possible while his bombers spent all game following and shooting my flagship and taking flak (braced by Jan). My ISD's pushed forward, Vader repairing on turns 3-5 (and dying turn 6), but only got 1 front arc shot vs his corvette leaving it on 1 hull. Didn't get to shoot the transports but he flew one off the battlefield because of it's shield dial while keeping away.

With last/first his Lib hit 2 debris fields then shot my left most ISD and ran behind all my ISD's. It took some rear/side shots which wiped out all it's shields except 1 so the only other action it did was to come behind my flagship on turn 6 and shoot 4 reds to finish it before running away.

Result 2 tokens for me, 1 for him: 58 - 175 for a 4-7

In hindsight I could have 

a) Started further back and slower to begin with the plan to cross the line on turn 6. From the back of the battlefield it would take 16 movement to do so, so could go speed 2 for 2 turns then speed 3 and repair for the remaining 4 turns. Whatever I do I would start getting bombed on turn 3

b) When the flagship started getting bombed I should have slowed the middle ISD down and moved it behind the flagship and then to it's right to try and create overlapping flak fields but this would have reduced my chance of actually shooting any ships.

 

Game 2 - Vs Cracken with 2AF Mk2B and 2 GR75 Comms with 6 A wings, 4 E Wings

Contrary to my previous plans, given that this was a carrier based fleet with just 2 combat ships I decided to be aggressive and try to push through the fighters to attack the carriers and table him. Needless to say  - this failed.

I set up the same as Game 1 but with the flagship as middle ISD. He set up with both AF heading right to left, 1 GR75 behind them and 1 his side of the obstacle field on the left. I came forward at speed 3 and he starting bombing the right most ISD with all fighters on turn 2, shooting with the AF side arcs red dice and turning away at speed 2 or 3. That ISD then died turn 3 so he could start on the left most one. I forked the left GR75 and left AF with the left ISD and killed the GR75 as he moved the AF away. I ended up in a chase with both AF who had the space to retreat and he was often able to shoot with the fighters then move them back to repeat on the next turn. Eventually he did end up out of activation range of the fighters but by then it was too late and I lost the left ISD too. I did get a few shots on 1 AF but not enough to do much damage to it as he was always able to run away due to first player.

 

Game 3 - Unsurprisingly a bye!

So in conclusion I don't think Blockade run works unless you try playing for a 60 point 7-4 win. Station Assault may be a better red objective. Also if a fleet wants to run away and kill you with fighters it's going to be a bad day for your Cymoons!

Wish I had read this before the Nationals, LOL.

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