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ovinomanc3r

How to...Triple Cymoon! (Chapters 1, 2 and 3)

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INTRODUCTION

I have been working on triple ISDs for a while and I will keep myself on it for long. The idea, at the beginning, was to record everything but I am a bit lazy when it is about to spend time in front of a computer (my pc sucks). But now I have no escape chance and I guess I could share a glance on my work.

I will start with a few considerations:

1. I didn't exhaust EVERY possble build, not even a number of proper ones. I tried things though and I planned future research directions I think they are promising.

2. Triple ISDs are A LOT OF FUN. Seriously! I am not sure how to explain that. It feels like Black Widow in the MCU. You won't have fancy tech tools adapted to dangerous threats. All you have is your brain and you're your only weapon indeed. There is no situations where you face bombers and say "I have a fighter-screen" or you face nasty objectives and say "I have lambdas" or face [whatever] and say "I have [whatever]". Instead of that it doesn't matter what you face, what you say is "I have three ISD and that's all" ALWAYS! At least to me this produce a big satisfaction cause absolutely everything is up to you. Not saying other builds don't depend on its player (Armada is great about it) but is... different in some way.

3. At this point I already lost the track of what I am trying so I will move onto building tips.

CHAPTER 01 - BUILDING A TRIPLE CYMOON: UPGRADES

I will skip long explanations about why. What you need to build a proper Triple Cymoon is the following:

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x3

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x3

and

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This will give you up to 43 points on upgrades and in any other kind of build you will realize that the commander IS an upgrade card like in this one.

From that point I should make a break and explain some of the key points when working with Triple ISDs in general and Triple Cymoons specifically.

1. Dice control. They hit like a brick but there is nothing wrong hitting even harder. With Triple Cymoons that's even something you need cause we know how red dice are.

2. Command control. They are quite flexible (really: powerful, fast, strong, multi-rol) but not so flexible when talking about command dials.

3. Scoring control. They are hard to put down. Working on engagement you can deny your opponent from scoring a big win and I found it is not the target but a good base to plan from. This is more tactical but there are things that can be done during fleet building.

So with 43 point left and being forced to spend at least 20 points in a commander, then better start building from there: the commander.

GRAND MOFF TARKIN - 38 - TESTED

Maybe you thought he is not but he is actually a good option. I tested him after Vader (the most obvious choice) and I did because I wanted to fix some some problems Vader has (more on that later). Why is Tarking good? Because those tokens are really usefull. First of all help you with the command control. Did you need that speed change you didn't foresee? Done! Did you get some early shots you would like to fix without wasting a command dial you are using to shoot back with 6 dice (nasty vengeance)? Done! Did you need some dice control? Done! I mean, he obvioulsy cannot fix a bad roll like Vader does but his shots (at long range) are already better than Ackbar's one and we know Akcbar works. He was able to put down one mc80 and Yavaris in two rounds tabling his opponent at round 3. He also allows speed changes that are really welcomed. Extra clicks are needed sometimes but I found speed changes useful most of the time and I usually want repair or shoot harder at the same time. Also those engineering tokens are awesome against squadrons, moving shields where they are needed or fix little engagement mistakes.

Sadly there are no more options to add to the list but one nut it is really awesome, powerful and I would strongly reccomend as your must go if you wanto to fly triple Cymoons with Tarkin: Sovereign. Just awesome, nothing else to add.

DARTH VADER - 36 - TESTED

Several times actually. He open more room than Tarkin. He is also quite obvious. Reroll King, he fix any bad reroll and improve even the good ones. I found him awesome to fish accuracies in those red dice. Sadly he fails improving points 1 and 2. You will be fixed to your commands so you will find yourself needing that engineering command you assigned for the next round. That is even worse considering you are giving up defense tokens to get his benefit what make easier to your opponent to get a second ISD and that's bad. Not saying nothing can be done. You can plan more carefully and play more agressively to never give your opponent a chance. Just saying you must have that points in mind. I should point out that sometimes to discard a token rerolling is the good defensive choice. I lost an ISD because I choose to keep its brace instead of trying to blow up an arquitens rerollng. The brace did not a difference and the ISD died anyways.

There are three good options building a Vader Triple Cymoons:

- First of all just Vader. This give you a decent bid and that is a good start considering you will be outdeployed and outactivated. Choose wisely. Nothing else to add.

- Second. You may add SFO on every ISD. I didn't try this but I worked with SFO before and I know it will work. You will need command control. Be sure never fail for more than one round (I rarely do so it works for me and for most of competitive players I guess).

- Third the most defensive one using an awesome defensive retrofit: Intesify Firepower! (Abosultely yes, I am not kidding). That was prooved and I loved it. There is nothing more annoying than speding a token to reroll one die and the worst is that you will want to so here is the solution. This not only help you to save some defense tokens, also make your firepower stupidly strong. How can you trigger it without any token supplier? With your brain, dumb boy! That's the best token supplier you will find in this kind of build. It is not so hard, seriously. Just keep your IF ship as the backup ship commanding CF for tokenize but don't worry you won't need it more than three rounds. Bank a token at the beginning, bank another one just at engagment (IF ship will not probably shoot at this point) and discard. Done. Again, another enemy fleet smashed in two rounds.

Now let's go with the unknown builds. There be dragons and they will be imperial hopefully.

GRAND ADMIRAL THRAWN - 32 - NEXT TO TEST

My guess about the blue guy is that he will cover the same area Tarkin does even better. Commands dials are better than tokens. Here I will exchange rounds for power with just three commands but I am fine about it. What worries me more is the dice control thing. Tarkin gives tokens every round vs three as best with Thrawn and I will want navigate and engineering in his pool also. Hopefully there is IF and 5 points for bid or SFO

ADMIRAL SCREED - 26 - NOT TESTED and I doubt I will.

I cannot see any advantage from this guy. Yes, he open 17 points for other upgrades, maybe QBT and he could fix one dice at the price of another so there is something to do with him if I roll at least two blanks. Or 2 QBT + IF... maybe. I just didn't think on him too much yet.

GENERAL TAGGE - 25 - NOT TESTED but a promising one

He won't probably be the best option for Triple Cymoon but I think he could work fine with other Triple ISDs builds. The reasons behind him are more based on flying Triple ISDs, something I will talk about later. Anyways it is obvious what he would improve. If he allows me to keep the ISD alive then he is a commander to have in mind. He has also another good advantage: 18 points for upgrades like xi7 to balance the lack of dice control with damage quality; QBTs for more long range damage or IF and 2 xi7/QBT. At this point I should add that I dont like assymetrical builds here cause one of the strength of this build is his verstility and balaced points distribution. However I think those difference are not enough to worry about. One backup ship providing IF and joining the battle to wipe out whatever the other two with xi7 couldn't.

ADMIRAL MOTTI - 24 - NOT TESTED

Another easy choice. He makes the ISDs "SSDer". In the line of Tagge. He will be probably easier to use.

MOFF JERJERROD - 23 - NOT TESTED

I guess he will be one of the best choices cause he is just one of the best commanders. He fixed command issues just allowing to navigate without navigating (inside turn is awesome). He also help to save ISDs with his navigation skills. 20 points for tools. On the other hand, like Vader, he decrease the defenses but I know him enough to know that saving one doom arc worth a couple of shields.

ADMIRAL KONSTANTIN - 23 - NOT TESTED

I am still wondering how much he would help Triple ISDs. On the paper being able to control engagement is gold when working with 3 ISDs. Just screw enemy formation to engage in your terms when I am a long range madness sounds cool and I have three big ships to trigger his ability. Again: On the paper... we know how he work on the table. But I would like to give him a try. I will ask for @Ginkapo advice when I was there.

ADMITAL OZZEL - 20 points - NOT TESTED

He will help with engagement what is important considering the activation disadvantage I have. I don't get anythin else from him but being the only commander that leaves 23 points on upgrades/bid... IF+QBTs??

 

OTHER CONSIDERATIONS

1. With up to 23 free points I don't think any squadron setup will save you the day. 3 ISDs are a lot of firepower so ignoring enemy squadron is an option, seriously. 2 black dice thanks to GT are fine also.

2. No SAd. With three activations the best you will get are 4. Any other 3 ship or 4 ship builds will have also a big ship anyways so you will end with no advantage at all. I think is far better to learn how to fly this with the disadvantage. It will improve your skills as worst.

3. Turbolasers are the main list to look for something. xi7 help to reach the hull. QBT make long range shot scarier. DTT are a good option as well but only for one shot. ST are crap here. Everything else is 7+ points so not viable unless for assymetrical builds. I know it could be just me but I really think keeping them the more similar as possible will help in the tactical arena. You could go with an H9-Cymoon to finish off something but what happens if it turns being your vanguard? I will try to explore it but it hurts when you depend on an specific tool that is already on your list and it doesn't work because it is on the other ship.

4. Titles. Relentless is good for command control. Avenger is good but it has tactical drawbacks. Devastator is hardly viable. Sovereign works basically in the Tarkin's build (Side Note: just in case you didn't guess right, the correct command to choose with Tarkin is ALWAYS squadron). 7th Fleet could be a good one, the only problem I find on this one is that the commanders that may equip that in their fleet are already defense focused or have that covered in some way (Tagge, Motti, JJ).

5. Not many usefull offensive retrofit. Phylon maybe but not really.

6. There is always good officers. SFO is my most strongly reccomendation. Tua for the flagship maybe. Intel officers of course. And others. However I don't see anyone that reinforce the strengths or cover the weaknesses at a viable point cost but SFO.

 

I will continue... eventually.

Edited by ovinomanc3r
awful english, sorry :(

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35 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Any worries about facing a giant fighter blob or anything like that?

Of course! But that's for strategic and tactical considerations. However, as you asked, I will try to approach it from a fleet-building standpoint.

1. Triple Cymoons have 400 points fully dedicated on destroying the enemy fleet. A bomber fleet is focused on the same but it needs to destroy 400 points while Triple Cymoons need to kill 230-266 points. We could be more accurate going upgrade by upgrade and squadron by squadron. Boosted Coms don't do damage at all for example. But that things are more complicated and we should first stablish a common rule about what is directly contributing, what is not, etc.

2. It i said that a good bomber wing is able to destroy an ISD in two rounds and that's true. That also means that engaging later makes your opponent impossible to kill you completely. Even detroying two ISDs it is getting 274 points (flagship included) what doesn't make a 10-1. It is about to make a competitive fleet so win is not enough; win big is (and avoiding big loses). Of course 9-2 is possible but that would require 4 rounds taking damage from bombers. On the other hand, three Cymoons are able to put down not an ISD rather a whole fleet in two rounds. I did, several times. Most of my games were finished in three rounds. Only a cuople reached four rounds and was cause delaying the engagement or not squadron focused fleets. Here we would touch strategic and tactical stuff so better move on. The thing is the more squadrons the easier to table your opponent (from the fleet-building standpoint).

3. Two black dice are not bad at all, specially if you are ablet to also shoot down the carrier at the same time. I would like 2 blue to make harder the squadron game but black is what I got. 1.5 average damage will put hard damage onto most bomber after two rounds though, what makes really risky to move them onto another target after the first ISD is down. I was even able to overlap flak but that's tactical stuff again. I also found ignoring them a good and wise choice but then you must be quite sure about you real chances. I did against the last world champion fleet. Not the same player but not a skillless one either. It ended 9-2 to me after loosing my flagship (and it was my Tarkin version).

4. Points 1 and 2 works better as a moral boost to yourself. Point 3 is just about the auxiliar option you will have. At the end the key will be to correctly measure the fleets power. Triple Cymon is putting is easily putting 27 average damage onto the enemy fleet (CF counted, Vader didn't) just from red dice. What would worry me more would be full cheap bombers liketie bomber or y wings than can be a lot (around 13 average damage just themselves). These kind of wing can easily allow their fleet to hit as hard as me.

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Thank you so much for sharing this, @ovinomanc3r! The more I've read about your thoughts on triple Cymoons, the more I am inclined to think it could be an even better option than Vader + double Cymoons + two Gozantis and squadrons. At least your lists look better than my lists on paper, for the reasons you've mentioned. Yes, less activations and less deployments, but more firepower overall. I really want to try this in a casual game sometime. (Not saying it's not competitive, just that I'd want to make my mistakes in a casual game first.)

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Here is the Triple Cymoon list I have been using. Great fun

400/400, Blockade Run, Contested Outpost, Solar Corona
ISD Cymoon, Konstantine, Gunnery Team, Strategic Adviser, Intensify Firepower. 152
ISD Cymoon, Gunnery Team, QBTs. 124
ISD Cymoon, Gunnery Team, QBTs. 124

If the enemy Avoid the QBTs and slow roll against 3 GT ISDs it shouldn't go well for them. Konstantine may even speed one victim ship up so the QBTs can help. If the enemy come in fast I can shoot one to bits (or maybe two with GTs), slow another down for next turn and/or speed up a flanking MC30 so it overshoots.

Against Bombers, forget the QBTs. Go in fast and kill some carriers. DTTs may be a more all round alternative here but the QBT will work with both shots. GTs can help kill 2 carriers or can allow you to kill one and spray lots of black flak dice against squadrons. Probably loose a Cymoon but hopefully not two. Konstantine can help stop pursuit and if carriers are using squadron commands they will not be negating Konstantine setting their speed to whatever I want after 2 turns.

Options

  1. I could replace one Cymoon for an ISD-I BT Avenger and a 1 point bid (or SFO).
  2. I could replace the Strategic adviser with a Veteran Captain or Hondo to get the extra token to activate IF while still doing important Nav/Repair commands. Bank a CF token turn 1, use it turn 2, Hondo/Vet Captain for turn 3 and then discard the IF card turn 4 when the enemy should all be dead or I will have lost the IF ship.
  3. If I do option 2 I could also replace Konstantine for Motti for more hull. Especially useful against Bomber lists as it takes 2-3 more squadron attacks to kill an ISD and to kill the second ISD to get decent wins means the enemy need to get 5-6 more bombing runs. Don't lead the attack with Motti's ship if you can help it.
  4. Moff JerJerrod is a straight swap for Konstantine and could be fun negating the need to Nav Command and allowing super turning especially at speed 3. DTTs or XX-9s rather than QBTs in this case.

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43 minutes ago, Bertie Wooster said:

Thank you so much for sharing this, @ovinomanc3r! The more I've read about your thoughts on triple Cymoons, the more I am inclined to think it could be an even better option than Vader + double Cymoons + two Gozantis and squadrons. At least your lists look better than my lists on paper, for the reasons you've mentioned. Yes, less activations and less deployments, but more firepower overall. I really want to try this in a casual game sometime. (Not saying it's not competitive, just that I'd want to make my mistakes in a casual game first.)

The very beginning of this was I was trying to learn and build a double ISD so I wanted to try full ISDs. But the more I play the more I see they are a completely different archetype and I ended falling in love with Triple ISDs.

Also I don't say it is competitive. I am trying to make it competitive cause I think it could be.?

Edited by ovinomanc3r

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17 minutes ago, Mad Cat said:

Here is the Triple Cymoon list I have been using. Great fun

400/400, Blockade Run, Contested Outpost, Solar Corona
ISD Cymoon, Konstantine, Gunnery Team, Strategic Adviser, Intensify Firepower. 152
ISD Cymoon, Gunnery Team, QBTs. 124
ISD Cymoon, Gunnery Team, QBTs. 124

If the enemy Avoid the QBTs and slow roll against 3 GT ISDs it shouldn't go well for them. Konstantine may even speed one victim ship up so the QBTs can help. If the enemy come in fast I can shoot one to bits (or maybe two with GTs), slow another down for next turn and/or speed up a flanking MC30 so it overshoots.

Against Bombers, forget the QBTs. Go in fast and kill some carriers. DTTs may be a more all round alternative here but the QBT will work with both shots. GTs can help kill 2 carriers or can allow you to kill one and spray lots of black flak dice against squadrons. Probably loose a Cymoon but hopefully not two. Konstantine can help stop pursuit and if carriers are using squadron commands they will not be negating Konstantine setting their speed to whatever I want after 2 turns.

Options

  1. I could replace one Cymoon for an ISD-I BT Avenger and a 1 point bid (or SFO).
  2. I could replace the Strategic adviser with a Veteran Captain or Hondo to get the extra token to activate IF while still doing important Nav/Repair commands. Bank a CF token turn 1, use it turn 2, Hondo/Vet Captain for turn 3 and then discard the IF card turn 4 when the enemy should all be dead or I will have lost the IF ship.
  3. If I do option 2 I could also replace Konstantine for Motti for more hull. Especially useful against Bomber lists as it takes 2-3 more squadron attacks to kill an ISD and to kill the second ISD to get decent wins means the enemy need to get 5-6 more bombing runs. Don't lead the attack with Motti's ship if you can help it.
  4. Moff JerJerrod is a straight swap for Konstantine and could be fun negating the need to Nav Command and allowing super turning especially at speed 3. DTTs or XX-9s rather than QBTs in this case.

I love Konstantin + QBTs. Also I didn't think in him to stop Demo from hunting down my Oblation ISD. I like it.

How did you find your damage output with just IF and extra blue die?

My probable change would be SAd for 3 SFO. 

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23 minutes ago, Admiral Calkins said:

I want my rematch! ?

I can arrange that! (today is a maybe, but Thursday I can probably commit to)

7 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Come talk to me when you've run 6.  ;)

That was a lot of ISDs... a scary number of ISDs.

On topic, I'm personally a fan of Vader here. I've had too many cases where my ISD-C rolls 5 blanks and a con fire token+dice rolls into an accuracy and a damage. Dice fixing is a must have and I don't feel like just IF is enough. Maaaaayyybeeee Tarkin token + con fire token, but I'd rather have Vader.

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7 minutes ago, Rikash said:

I can arrange that! (today is a maybe, but Thursday I can probably commit to)

That was a lot of ISDs... a scary number of ISDs.

On topic, I'm personally a fan of Vader here. I've had too many cases where my ISD-C rolls 5 blanks and a con fire token+dice rolls into an accuracy and a damage. Dice fixing is a must have and I don't feel like just IF is enough. Maaaaayyybeeee Tarkin token + con fire token, but I'd rather have Vader.

I'm free tonight. Totally want to try it, but was half joking because we both know my problem was maneuvering, which is not going to improve with one more ISD

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2 hours ago, mr_mithrandir said:

Can you talk deployment and formation flying for three? That’s where I see the potential issue most of the time with multiple ISDs

I know @GiledPallaeon , who was into multiple ISDs before it was cool (...man), is not a fan of the triple ISDs. You skimp too much on upgrades and it's pretty easy for an opponent to dodge the 3rd ISD given how badly you're outdeployed.

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29 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

I know @GiledPallaeon , who was into multiple ISDs before it was cool (...man), is not a fan of the triple ISDs. You skimp too much on upgrades and it's pretty easy for an opponent to dodge the 3rd ISD given how badly you're outdeployed.

Hmm ? I actually felt the other way. Not dependant on upgrades (GT aside) but the commander and had not problem to put all three on enemy throat (it is true that the third joins later and requires good skill). But I have a long road ahead. I am thrilled about what he may add. More than anything I am in the forum to learn.

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38 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

I know @GiledPallaeon , who was into multiple ISDs before it was cool (...man), is not a fan of the triple ISDs. You skimp too much on upgrades and it's pretty easy for an opponent to dodge the 3rd ISD given how badly you're outdeployed.

The huge meaningful threat range of the Cymoon goes a long way toward mitigating this.  Part of the challenge with running triples of the other three variants is that the sheer size of an ISD's base makes it hard to cram them all into the tiny space necessary to bring all three to bear at close or medium range.  Because the ISDC is pretty happy at long out the front, they can still cross-support each other pretty well even from far away.

The other piece is that, against an ISD2, the opponent can jump from long range out the front to medium in the side to outflank it and be relatively safe in both places.  Even more so for ISD1 and ISDK.  For an ISDC, though, those are its ideal ranges for each of those arcs.

I'd be really interested to see that threat weight-vs-range diagram @clontroper5 made way back when, updated to compare the ISDs.

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4 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

The huge meaningful threat range of the Cymoon goes a long way toward mitigating this.  Part of the challenge with running triples of the other three variants is that the sheer size of an ISD's base makes it hard to cram them all into the tiny space necessary to bring all three to bear at close or medium range.  Because the ISDC is pretty happy at long out the front, they can still cross-support each other pretty well even from far away.

The other piece is that, against an ISD2, the opponent can jump from long range out the front to medium in the side to outflank it and be relatively safe in both places.  Even more so for ISD1 and ISDK.  For an ISDC, though, those are its ideal ranges for each of those arcs.

I'd be really interested to see that threat weight-vs-range diagram @clontroper5 made way back when, updated to compare the ISDs.

So well explained my experiences here that I am not sure why the **** I am sharing my poor words ?

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30 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

The huge meaningful threat range of the Cymoon goes a long way toward mitigating this.  Part of the challenge with running triples of the other three variants is that the sheer size of an ISD's base makes it hard to cram them all into the tiny space necessary to bring all three to bear at close or medium range.  Because the ISDC is pretty happy at long out the front, they can still cross-support each other pretty well even from far away.

The other piece is that, against an ISD2, the opponent can jump from long range out the front to medium in the side to outflank it and be relatively safe in both places.  Even more so for ISD1 and ISDK.  For an ISDC, though, those are its ideal ranges for each of those arcs.

I'd be really interested to see that threat weight-vs-range diagram @clontroper5 made way back when, updated to compare the ISDs.

Totally makes sense and I have been trying out the dual Cymoon recently to some success. The problem I still run into is that you want overlapping fire because there are no other options of damage output. With three this is highlighted more I would think. How do you best deploy to mitigate lack of activations. Threat range is nice, but you really don’t want to obstruct your own shots with such big bases. Likewise you don’t want to isolate individual destroyers. Or maybe it’s ok to fly two close and one as a big “flanker”? I really want three to work (maybe just for the intimidation factor!) but since you really can’t set up a conga line at long range you can quickly get into your own way. 

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Deployment

You will of course be out deployed especially by fleets with 4+ squadrons. Often you will only see a flotilla and 2 or 4 fighters before your flagship finally goes on table. 

Mission with objective counters on the table help determin deployment. Tempting enemy ships to try and get them or suffer point losses to you. Be quite prepared to ignore tokens if you can get kills instead.

In other missions I usually deploy on say the right, not quite in the corner pointing towards the centre of the table but not too far - still with the option of navigating early to turn right if the enemy come that way. If the enemy flank you to your right then nav and crush them against the short table edge. If they flank to your left - well that's the long way round so you have plenty of time.

I usually go speed 2 to sow doubt in the enemy. Will the ISDs slow and turn, go into echelon (outer ISD speeds up & inner ISD slows down) and flank the enemy or will all three pile on the power and rush in? I don't know either but I'll decide when I've seen all his units on table and we start setting command dials.

Be prepared to delay combat until turn 3 or 4. Deploy touching your baseline rather than forward at the front edge of the deployment zone. It gives you a little more time to maneuvre and recover from being out deployed. If the first enemy ship is placed centre left then you deploy in the right corner to either sideline that ship or give you more time for positioning. A turn 4 initial combat pass also gives the enemy less time to retaliate and hunt down a ship. Now your damaged ISD only has to survive 2 turns of enemy bombers or an annoying TRC90 rather than 4 and with 2 repair commands and a speed up to 3 you can get away. You are also less likely to have to slow or turn to avoid the table edge.

There are some missions that tripple ISDs like because deployment is less of an issue. Contested outpost is great as either player since you know it will be a big scrap in the middle either way. Blockade run is similar as you can't be outflanked as easy on the narrow table and 3 ISDs just love a joust. Station assault had an option to split the 2 stations but still you know what you have to do and how to set up your pass to kill one and move on to the other. Fleet ambush and Fighter ambush negate squadrons delaying ship deployments and Solar corona lets you out deploy him as second player.

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