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Glucose98

Luker Gunner costs ~30 pts?

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It seems like FFG wanted Luke crew to be kind of a training wheels card for new players and it makes sense why they picked such an iconic characters as people will tend to gravitate towards the main characters.

 

I just wish Luke was Pre-activation Phase instead of Engagement. He would still be a powerful card, but you would still have some guessing to which arc you should be moving your turret.

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I still don't get why "training wheels" would be needed in the first place or why they had to be worded the way they are.

For "training wheels", we already have Xwing Luke. He's in the core set, is forgiving because he bends the rules (action independent force), but still teaches players the game by having them pay attention to manuevering because of his firing arc

For gunner Luke, I don't see how ignoring basically all game mechanics is a smart idea. If he were like Lando, ie does what he does but only after having completed a blue manuever, no one would be complaining

Idk, but I can't really buy a good price on anything that so brazenly ignores all the games' fundamentals.

Can only hope that at 30+, you're just better off not taking a gunner on your yt 

Though a yt2400 with a perceptive Bistan sounds fun

Edited by ficklegreendice

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2 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

It's my hope that all the time they put into thinking about what needs to fixed in 1.0, they are going to actually balance the ideas that were in 1.0 that just caused OP issues in game-play that we all had to suffer through. I don't give a s**t if Luke is 100 points, if he creates an OP 1.0 element that the designers clearly stated they didn't like and wanted to remove, he shouldn't even exist. I'm a black and white kinda guy; if the snake is poisonous, you just don't handle it, no matter how good your gloves and jacket is. Maybe that's just me. It makes me scratch my head. His ability could still be cool, and useful, and thematic without the game-play break.

I want to like and use Luke in games, he's an iconic mate! Sadly, this ability they gave him will negate him from positive thought and blacklist him from our pint games. You shat on Luke FFG....why?!?

I can't decide if the large opportunity cost makes this *OK*.  It's not every ship that can realistically use it.  It's not equivalent to a spammed list of TLTs.  It's a single (double if you include Dash), expensive ship that you are purchasing with a trade off of ignoring a ton of other viable options. 

Are we able to say their 2.0 design mantra is still 'intact' if the the rule breakers are unique and limited?  If their price points are high enough that it's a 'real cost' to go that route and not an auto include?  Can someone flying this expensive Han always win, because having  360 turret is all that matters? I get that it reduces the decision points of the game, it puts targeting one enemy in easy mode, but ultimately its effect is bonus action economy (without the ability to stress away their mobile turret action).  I'd want to know how often Han 2.0 gets you in arc w/o the 30 point Gunner Luke, on average.  I'd want to know how much more its able to evade you with an additional boost, or how much more damage its getting with an additional focus or TL..  That's the real trade-off here, and is it worth 30 points?

 

Edited by Glucose98

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30 points to get 1.0 pre-autothrusters functionality on a Falcon seems reasonable. As noted elsewhere, YTs with Luke in the Gunner chair will basically be paying the equivelent of 60-70 points in 1.0. Yeah, you're not going to arc-dodge him, but 60-70 points is an absurd amount to pay for one attack per round, even if it is a 4-die turret.

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How many hit points does Dash or a Falcon have again? What is the likelihood they can be one shot in an alpha strike? I don’t want to have a rock,paper, scissor balance. I’d be much happier with sliding scales where most squads have a chance to beat anything and it’s just down to how good you have to fly to win. Can 2 ships with the right payload stomp these turrents? 3? Do they have to specialize to get the power needed?

I hate the Luke card and agree with those that think it has no place here but if it must exist how hard is it to deal with? How many attacks of each magnitude is needed to blow it up? That is going to define how stupid it is. If you can stall, by avoiding just enough damage to pick off other ships, and eliminate your opponents with your guranteed arc then this one card is going to be the problem some of you refuse to see it as. Because it’s one ship... The Death Star was one ship too, just sayin.

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I don't really think the Luke card is the end of the world here- a lot of the things that made the fat turrets what they are just don't exist any more- at best, I think we're at v1 chewie-leebo levels of power, which if that's your problem, you suck at the game.

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Yeah, I hate the idea of Luke Gunner's card, but I'm pretty much in the camp of "wait and see before we say the sky is falling."

The problem, as @ficklegreendice has consistently pointed out, is that it makes for too many turn 0 wins or losses, because it doesn't really matter how you fly. If it can consistently beat any lists, then that's super bad for the game in general, since that requires no skill.

Still, there are enough other skill components (range management, obstacle distance/overlap, bumping, action selection of evade vs 3p0 calculate vs boost vs focus vs lock) that it definitely won't be anywhere near as bad as even old fat Han, to say nothing of TLT, Lothal Fenn, 200pt Miranda, Flying Carpets, etc. As long as it's more than 50% skill, and as long as what isn't skill can die to bad dice (which this can now thank goodness), all is not lost.

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3 hours ago, Glucose98 said:

snip  I'd want to know how often Han 2.0 gets you in arc w/o the 30 point Gunner Luke, on average.  I'd want to know how much more its able to evade you with an additional boost, or how much more damage its getting with an additional focus or TL..  That's the real trade-off here, and is it worth 30 points?

 

The real concern for me is the lower initiative pilots with Luke Gunner.  The generics can move first, get their action, maybe block one enemy and still, always get a shot.  Always.  Plus, the generic is not paying a premium for initiative but Luke gives them perfect board knowledge for the arc rotation.

Edited by gamblertuba

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1 hour ago, LordFajubi said:

How many hit points does Dash or a Falcon have again? What is the likelihood they can be one shot in an alpha strike? I don’t want to have a rock,paper, scissor balance. I’d be much happier with sliding scales where most squads have a chance to beat anything and it’s just down to how good you have to fly to win. Can 2 ships with the right payload stomp these turrets? 3? Do they have to specialize to get the power needed?

I hate the Luke card and agree with those that think it has no place here but if it must exist how hard is it to deal with? How many attacks of each magnitude is needed to blow it up? That is going to define how stupid it is. If you can stall, by avoiding just enough damage to pick off other ships, and eliminate your opponents with your guaranteed arc then this one card is going to be the problem some of you refuse to see it as. Because it’s one ship... The Death Star was one ship too, just saying.

So far, Dash does not appear to have any significant defensive measures on his side. He could take Stealth Device and Elusive, I suppose. Elusive would remove the option to have a white BR, though, and that's probably a considerable loss for him.

Han is a little bit different. C3PO will work okay on him as long as he can stay near an asteroid and the MF title may not be incredibly strong but it'll help on the defense at least a bit. Could potentially take Elusive and Stealth device as well but very unlikely the latter (though C3PO would work better with it equipped, it's too easy to lose it).

Leebo with C3PO might be more frustrating than them. Lots of defensive tokens plus the potential for an extra evade result from C3PO, on a ship where you're more likely to get your guess (assuming you guess 1).

There's definitely still some potential for Fat Whoever builds but it doesn't seem quite as defensible or capable of utter nonsense as was possible in first edition.

EDIT: Lando is also something to consider, he has to go slow but I believe his bonus action can be given to himself, meaning he could have multiple green tokens or be able to boost out of a bad situation and still have some offense/defense.

Edited by Ixidor

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Lando is going to be great (at r0 and without "another friendly", he can target himself)

He's also very well designed, as his ability is dependent on being to fully execute a limited set of manuevers.

He and Han are really exactly what I wanted turrets to be in 1.0, and I guess they still are if gunner Luke doesn't muck it up.

Guess the big question now is "how big a deal is a single z95?" 

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22 hours ago, Squark said:

Hmm...  the x7 Delta Squadron Pilot is worth at least 30 points (Relative to the old standard of an Academy Pilot for 12).  So lets call it 60 points in 2.0 before we change anything. We now give it back the secondary weapon slots, add a shield, improve the dial, and add the boost and evade actions. Is that worth twelve (six in 1.0 terms) points?

 

... I'd say that feels a little expensive for an Initiative 1 defender, and might merit a new upgrade slot. On the other hand, that sounds about right if the Delta Squadron Pilot got a boost to two or three, since a PS 1 pilot on the empire's most advanced starship always felt weird.

Hmmm...if 1.0 it could have more than  1 mod...

A 1.0 Delta + X7 + Engine Upgrade + Shield Upgrade = 36 pts 1.0 = 72 pts 2.0

Seems fishy lol.

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10 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

2.0 Mobile arcs DO NOT all behave like asajj

Yts and jumps don't have a primary arc (primary weapon, area is not filled in  on base). The mobile arcs face opposite sides, making ezra/vet gunner/Han crap and literally useless of you're sidewinding along the table edge.

Shadowcaster type arcs (lancer, moldy hwk, vcx, y) got nerfed to 2 dice mobiles, apart from ion . These guys don't care much about Luke because their turrets kinda suck and they can probably double-tap with vetgunner/Ezra etc 

Any side arc behaves like 1.0 Asajj. Asajj's best strategy was never to flank theboard edge - that leads to constricted movement and several turns of blocking until she explodes. If you're careful with rock placement, she blows through then starts kiting in the middle of the board, giving you good shots and unblockable manoeuvres for the remaining time she lives.

It's very easy for AGI1-2 ships like Han and Dash to begin a game with arcs left-right, and sinply joust and execute a 20turn towards the denter of the map to engage. There, arc is locked on target, your opponent's squadron is engaging at range 2-3 for the rest of the game, and you're set. Luke gunner is now entirely wasted, where all the other options would be excellent.

And for the 'luke should be 30+ points' camp, keep in mind that, an all likelihood, it will be forever impossible for the falcon to get the boost or barrel roll action. No fat turrets evading everything, which was all that stopped swarms from chewing up 1.0 Han. Heck, 4 X-wings could kill Han and only lose a single ship in the process, pretty much no matter what Han does.

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20 minutes ago, Astech said:

 

And for the 'luke should be 30+ points' camp, keep in mind that, an all likelihood, it will be forever impossible for the falcon to get the boost or barrel roll action. No fat turrets evading everything, which was all that stopped swarms from chewing up 1.0 Han. Heck, 4 X-wings could kill Han and only lose a single ship in the process, pretty much no matter what Han does.

While I am not one of the ones who are super concerned about gunner Luke, I do have to point out that the falcon does have a red boost on it's card. So while it may be impossible for it to get barrel roll, it has boost baked in and depending on the cost of engine upgrade it could plausibly upgrade that boost to a stress free maneuver as well.

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20 minutes ago, ElricStormbringer said:

While I am not one of the ones who are super concerned about gunner Luke, I do have to point out that the falcon does have a red boost on it's card. So while it may be impossible for it to get barrel roll, it has boost baked in and depending on the cost of engine upgrade it could plausibly upgrade that boost to a stress free maneuver as well.

Bummer. I haven't seen Han's card yet. Do we know if engine upgrade has a restriction of 'small and medium only', o is that too much to hope for. Even so, with just a red boost the damage is pretty much done already. Still, a fat boosting turret with Luke is still going to be ultimately worse than a fat turret with other gunner options, assuming competent pricing.

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3 hours ago, phild0 said:

Hmmm...if 1.0 it could have more than  1 mod...

A 1.0 Delta + X7 + Engine Upgrade + Shield Upgrade = 36 pts 1.0 = 72 pts 2.0

Seems fishy lol.

And it isn't worth those points at all.  Hopefully they gave it a systems slot so it can take FCS and maybe make up those points.

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59 minutes ago, Astech said:

Bummer. I haven't seen Han's card yet. Do we know if engine upgrade has a restriction of 'small and medium only', o is that too much to hope for. Even so, with just a red boost the damage is pretty much done already. Still, a fat boosting turret with Luke is still going to be ultimately worse than a fat turret with other gunner options, assuming competent pricing.

There is no small/med restriction. The one hope is that since they said upgrade costs can vary per ship they could price eu uncomfortably high for the falcon should it prove problematic.

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56 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

And it isn't worth those points at all.  Hopefully they gave it a systems slot so it can take FCS and maybe make up those points.

If the lowest initiative is the 4 we saw, it may well be worth the points. If it’s a 1, it’ll be a harder sell

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