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SirCormac

Han vs. Leia, some thoughts

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So I've been thinking recently, with the addition of Leia to the game, about how AWESOME she is, and how aggressively costed she is. You get a real package for 90 points! But, this got me worrying: Will there be a place at the Rebel table when Han gets here, or have Luke and Leia soaked up those spots? For a while, I really couldn't see how Han will justify the 30 point jump, especially since, strictly speaking, Leia has the better ranged attack than Han does, and with Sharpshooter 2! It seemed to me that Han will be a bad bargain...that is, until I sat down and did some math. So I am presenting to you some of my findings, and why I think Han may be a sleeper hit, and might be pretty awesome. Enjoy!

Ranged Attack

1.    Both 1-2

2.       Out of Cover or in Light Cover, Han averages 1.75 hits with .5 Crits. Pierce 2 kills both. Leia averages 1.875 hits, with .75 Crits. Pierce 1 Kills 1. If all go through on a Stormtrooper, Leia can expect to kill 2 total (same a Han). Leia has a higher ceiling but lower floor, but odds of the stormtroopers rolling 3 blocks are 12.5%. Otherwise, she’s at least as good as Han.

3.       Heavy Cover, Han will lose 1 hit on average and scores .75 hits, which Pierce kills. Leia’s stats are the same as above.

4.       Gunslinger – This is Han’s real show case ability, since, while he barely loses to Leia in light or no cover (and somewhat significantly loses to Leia against Heavy cover) he makes up for it by attacking twice. If he catches two squads not in cover or in light cover (forests, anyone?) he can very reliably kill 4 Stormtroopers on a turn, which rivals Luke and Vader in melee. In addition, he can dish out two suppression. Even if both enemies are in heavy cover, Han can still reliably kill 2 stormtroopers and dish out two suppression, which effectively equals Leia’s death count + an extra suppression.

Melee

1.       Leia clearly wins here, with the same stats she has with her pistol (except no pierce), while Han deals a measly 1.125 hits. Don’t get him in melee.

 

Survivability

1.       Stats are the same, but Han has two defensive abilities: Low Profile and Uncanny Luck 3. While Uncanny Luck is active, it turns his dice from 1/3 chance into a 5/9 (better than naked Red dice). Weirdly enough, better than Luke and Vader without Deflect!  If Han only takes, at most, 3 hits coming in (hopefully likely with heavy cover), his effective health is 10.8. For comparison, Leia’s effective health is 9. So Han has almost 2 more ‘effective’ health than Leia does. If Han is ever caught in the open (with Duck and Cover) vs. Leia in the same situation, or, if they need to go into Light cover (both common situations), Han can easily make this distance even greater. Only Leia with a dodge in Heavy cover is better defensively than Han, and then, only against multiple shots (against a Han with a dodge). These things are harder to gauge mathematically, but are worth considering.

 

In short, I've played some games with Leia, and have been quite impressed, and now am pretty stoked to see Han on the table. He has a real ability to dish out damage at range that we haven't seen before. He could even charge into an open field to get past stormtrooper cover, shoot at two units without cover, kill 4 total, then, when he gets shot back, take a suppression and get heavy cover! Also, stormtroopers in woods are going to fear Solo. I think Duck and Cover will be auto include on him. Can't wait!

Edited by SirCormac

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It will also depend on what that third command card is.  I will say Reckless Distraction looks pretty amazing.

The unfortunate part about Han has more to do I think with how terrain is classified.  Most of the terrain that players have readily available (buildings, ruins, barricades, craters, trenches) is heavy cover.  You almost have to go out of your way to include any light cover, which is basically just light forest (even heavy forest is heavy cover).  Most of our tables have very little light cover on it, which, as you noted, is not good for Han's offensive output.

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3 minutes ago, Orkimedes said:

It will also depend on what that third command card is.  I will say Reckless Distraction looks pretty amazing.

The unfortunate part about Han has more to do I think with how terrain is classified.  Most of the terrain that players have readily available (buildings, ruins, barricades, craters, trenches) is heavy cover.  You almost have to go out of your way to include any light cover, which is basically just light forest (even heavy forest is heavy cover).  Most of our tables have very little light cover on it, which, as you noted, is not good for Han's offensive output.

This is why I think it is so crucial to have a mix on any table. No only for things like Han, but to create more decisions. "I really want to go over there, but is light cover enough to protect me?" I always try to have a mix on my table.

Also, agreed on the cards. I didn't talk about this because I was more worried about the hard stats. Reckless diversion is amazing, and I think is arguably the best 2 pip card in the game. I will say, you will probably want Leia near both of those troops to pass them Dodge tokens, but otherwise, its still pretty awesome.

Edited by SirCormac

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so far everything but the t-47 is very much playable and has a place on the board. i don't see why ffg would stop designing their models so well balanced. they are doing great so far.

will there be blunders? no doubt! han doesn't look lie one at all.

i think the best thing about han (by far!) will be his command card "reckless diversion.

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7 hours ago, Orkimedes said:

It will also depend on what that third command card is.  I will say Reckless Distraction looks pretty amazing.

The unfortunate part about Han has more to do I think with how terrain is classified.  Most of the terrain that players have readily available (buildings, ruins, barricades, craters, trenches) is heavy cover.  You almost have to go out of your way to include any light cover, which is basically just light forest (even heavy forest is heavy cover).  Most of our tables have very little light cover on it, which, as you noted, is not good for Han's offensive output.

Bring AT-RTs as moveable barricades/frontline! That’s my plan. 

@SirCormac: nice analysis but I’d argue that it’s less about Han replacing Leia as it is Han replacing Luke in double commander lists to save a chunk of points. 

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7 hours ago, Orkimedes said:

It will also depend on what that third command card is.  I will say Reckless Distraction looks pretty amazing.

The unfortunate part about Han has more to do I think with how terrain is classified.  Most of the terrain that players have readily available (buildings, ruins, barricades, craters, trenches) is heavy cover.  You almost have to go out of your way to include any light cover, which is basically just light forest (even heavy forest is heavy cover).  Most of our tables have very little light cover on it, which, as you noted, is not good for Han's offensive output.

Examples of terrains I use that are light:
Light forests (Open for troopers, difficult for ground vehicles, dangerous [same as clambering] for speeders on compulsory, light cover for all)
Hedges (Light cover for troopers, difficult for infantry)
Tall grass (Light cover for troopers, open for all)
Shrubbery (Light cover for troopers, difficult for troopers and medium-based ground vehicles)
Rocky terrain (Light cover for troopers, open for troopers, walkers and speeders)
Marsh (Light cover for all, difficult terrain for troopers and ground vehicles)
Crates (Light cover for Troopers, open for all)
Mud walls (Light cover for all [depending on height], clamber to move through for troopers, difficult terrain for ground vehicles)
Hedgehogs (tank traps) : (Light cover for troopers, open terrain for troopers, impassable terrain for ground vehicles)
Craters (Light cover for troopers touching the terrain, difficult terrain for troopers, Open for all)
Ditch (Light cover for troopers, open for all)

People just lack a bit of imagination.

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7 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

What?  The fastest model int he game with a super reliable attack value is unplayable and has no place on the board?  TRIGGERED!

 

But for reals, it's good yo.

It's just not very points efficient.  It's very fragile and the attack is the same as a unit of speeder bikes, which are half the cost.

48 minutes ago, Deuzerre said:

Examples of terrains I use that are light:
Light forests (Open for troopers, difficult for ground vehicles, dangerous [same as clambering] for speeders on compulsory, light cover for all)
Hedges (Light cover for troopers, difficult for infantry)
Tall grass (Light cover for troopers, open for all)
Shrubbery (Light cover for troopers, difficult for troopers and medium-based ground vehicles)
Rocky terrain (Light cover for troopers, open for troopers, walkers and speeders)
Marsh (Light cover for all, difficult terrain for troopers and ground vehicles)
Crates (Light cover for Troopers, open for all)
Mud walls (Light cover for all [depending on height], clamber to move through for troopers, difficult terrain for ground vehicles)
Hedgehogs (tank traps) : (Light cover for troopers, open terrain for troopers, impassable terrain for ground vehicles)
Craters (Light cover for troopers touching the terrain, difficult terrain for troopers, Open for all)
Ditch (Light cover for troopers, open for all)

People just lack a bit of imagination.

I get that there are things that can be used as light cover, I'm just saying most players don't have them lying around.  Things like grass, shrubbery, hedges, and ditches tend to be used by players that play WW2 or other historical type games like Bolt Action and Flames of War; and Legion doesn't really have many converts from those (nor are those items generally Star Wars themed anyway).  Most are either 40k converts (and have the aforementioned ruins, trenches, and craters) or are new to miniatures altogether, and are using the Star Wars themed 3D printed or card-stock stuff, which tends to be very heavy cover focused.

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4 minutes ago, Orkimedes said:

It's just not very points efficient.  It's very fragile and the attack is the same as a unit of speeder bikes, which are half the cost.

 

It's also significantly more durable than speeder bikes, has higher impact, gets more mileage out of aiming because of it doesn't have white dice in the pool.  Also, it's about as durable as Luke that's only 15pts less, and he doesn't threat anywhere near as far.  One day, I'll be vindicated when people finally realize how good T-47's are, but that apparently is not today.

Edited by MasterShake2

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29 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

It's also significantly more durable than speeder bikes, has higher impact, gets more mileage out of aiming because of it doesn't have white dice in the pool.  Also, it's about as durable as Luke that's only 15pts less, and he doesn't threat anywhere near as far.  One day, I'll be vindicated when people finally realize how good T-47's are, but that apparently is not today.

As an imperial player the T-47 is a pain as it forces me to split my army to avoid the suppression and damage. It can also move quite fast so I definitely value how good the T-47s are! Plus with Arsenal 2 they become quite the threat. They should be used as a harassing unit rather than a hammer. 

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2 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

It's also significantly more durable than speeder bikes, has higher impact, gets more mileage out of aiming because of it doesn't have white dice in the pool.  Also, it's about as durable as Luke that's only 15pts less, and he doesn't threat anywhere near as far.  One day, I'll be vindicated when people finally realize how good T-47's are, but that apparently is not today.

It is clearly better than a unit of speeder bikes; but it’s definitely not better than two units of speeder bikes, which are 180 points.  That’s not really a practical comparison though, since rebels can’t take those and each faction’s units interact differently with each other.

It’s more just that I can think of so many other things I would rather spend 175 points on.  Luke.  Fleet troopers + Leia.  Two AT-RTs.

This isn’t a T-47 thread though; there are plenty of those already.  This is a Han thread!

I do agree he will generally replace Luke rather than Leia.  In a two commander list, it’s hard to beat the cost and support abilities of Leia.  Plus I think you will want her to throw down those dodge tokens for Reckless Diversion as already noted.

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Han has, through my own testing, almost always paid himself off, mostly thanks to his 2 pip command card (on the TTS) that basically forces the opponent to either play sub-effectively trying to work out LoS and whatever to avoid the drawback, or siply pumping shots into a unit that's in the open with heavy cover thanks to suppression that rerolls saves. The only true counter to him is to have pierce weapons and sharpshooter.

His ability to kill off bikes is unparalleled on the rebel side, especially if leia orbital striked'em at the start of the game to have them down in HP, and by using "sorry for the mess" at the right time.
However, aim tokens are almost always wasted on him with only 2 shots.

He's a really strong unit really, until the opponent thinks of tying him down in melee with anything really.

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16 hours ago, SirCormac said:

1.       Leia clearly wins here, with the same stats she has with her pistol (except no pierce), while Han deals a measly 1.125 hits. Don’t get him in melee.

Don't be so judgey. If you had a big old wookiee following you around every where your whole life you get really sucky at hand to hand too.

That is a good analysis to know how to play one or the other. I don't see too many people not choosing both when they are available.

Right now, Legion is a trooper game with a few vehicle mixed in, maybe. Once we have our choice of special ops, special forces and different leaders, this game is going to look more like an Imperial Assault skirmish list than an army list.

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On 6/2/2018 at 4:49 AM, SirCormac said:

So I've been thinking recently, with the addition of Leia to the game, about how AWESOME she is, and how aggressively costed she is. You get a real package for 90 points! But, this got me worrying: Will there be a place at the Rebel table when Han gets here, or have Luke and Leia soaked up those spots? For a while, I really couldn't see how Han will justify the 30 point jump, especially since, strictly speaking, Leia has the better ranged attack than Han does, and with Sharpshooter 2! It seemed to me that Han will be a bad bargain...that is, until I sat down and did some math. So I am presenting to you some of my findings, and why I think Han may be a sleeper hit, and might be pretty awesome. Enjoy!

Ranged Attack

1.    Both 1-2

2.       Out of Cover or in Light Cover, Han averages 1.75 hits with .5 Crits. Pierce 2 kills both. Leia averages 1.875 hits, with .75 Crits. Pierce 1 Kills 1. If all go through on a Stormtrooper, Leia can expect to kill 2 total (same a Han). Leia has a higher ceiling but lower floor, but odds of the stormtroopers rolling 3 blocks are 12.5%. Otherwise, she’s at least as good as Han.

3.       Heavy Cover, Han will lose 1 hit on average and scores .75 hits, which Pierce kills. Leia’s stats are the same as above.

4.       Gunslinger – This is Han’s real show case ability, since, while he barely loses to Leia in light or no cover (and somewhat significantly loses to Leia against Heavy cover) he makes up for it by attacking twice. If he catches two squads not in cover or in light cover (forests, anyone?) he can very reliably kill 4 Stormtroopers on a turn, which rivals Luke and Vader in melee. In addition, he can dish out two suppression. Even if both enemies are in heavy cover, Han can still reliably kill 2 stormtroopers and dish out two suppression, which effectively equals Leia’s death count + an extra suppression.

Melee

1.       Leia clearly wins here, with the same stats she has with her pistol (except no pierce), while Han deals a measly 1.125 hits. Don’t get him in melee.

 

Survivability

1.       Stats are the same, but Han has two defensive abilities: Low Profile and Uncanny Luck 3. While Uncanny Luck is active, it turns his dice from 1/3 chance into a 5/9 (better than naked Red dice). Weirdly enough, better than Luke and Vader without Deflect!  If Han only takes, at most, 3 hits coming in (hopefully likely with heavy cover), his effective health is 10.8. For comparison, Leia’s effective health is 9. So Han has almost 2 more ‘effective’ health than Leia does. If Han is ever caught in the open (with Duck and Cover) vs. Leia in the same situation, or, if they need to go into Light cover (both common situations), Han can easily make this distance even greater. Only Leia with a dodge in Heavy cover is better defensively than Han, and then, only against multiple shots (against a Han with a dodge). These things are harder to gauge mathematically, but are worth considering.

 

In short, I've played some games with Leia, and have been quite impressed, and now am pretty stoked to see Han on the table. He has a real ability to dish out damage at range that we haven't seen before. He could even charge into an open field to get past stormtrooper cover, shoot at two units without cover, kill 4 total, then, when he gets shot back, take a suppression and get heavy cover! Also, stormtroopers in woods are going to fear Solo. I think Duck and Cover will be auto include on him. Can't wait!

One thing I would say (IMO) talking about ST in woods etc.  

 

I think its a good idea to try work in hard cover into woodsy boards, be it fallen trees or rocks or whatever.  Ive updated my Scariff board to do just that by scattering a few things about...but I try keep it looking like they are there for a reason if possible.

 

 

Edited by VAYASAN

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