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Will FFG comment on the generics issue?

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1 hour ago, Jeff Wilder said:

That's patently false, as many people were misled.  ****, I was misled, and I'm a @#$%ing lawyer, trained to parse language until it screams.

Be an apologist all you like, but at least be self-aware.  If the information as it's shaping up is what we actually get, FFG absolutely gave misleading information.  It's reasonable to argue whether it was accidental or intentional, but that's it.

I’m not apologizing for them at all. I am not happy that there aren’t the number of generics that I would like to see in these kits, as unlike many of the posters here, I actually use generic lists.

But to claim it’s misleading is an overstatement. People read into the statements. That’s a misinterpretation, which is different than being misled.

FFG said you could buy conversion kits to convert your ships. They never stated or implied that one CK would allow you to convert your whole collection of one faction. How could they, when players’ collections vary?

I’m not saying don’t be angry/sad/disappointed (I’m disappointed), but don’t make false claims about how FFG has advertised this.

I’m not a lawyer, but I do have a degree in marketing. I never took their statements to mean that one Rebel CK would allow me to convert all my Rebel ships.   Some people just made assumptions that don’t seem to be playing out.

At the end of the day, my plans haven’t changed - I’m going to buy a starter and a conversion kit for each faction, and fill in from there. Unless I see a fire sale on them, I’m not buying multiple CKs. I will probably buy some components on the secondary market (I expect to want more generic A-Wings, for sure), but that will depend on price as well. 

Edited by elfholme

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So I just looked at the numbers to try and estimate potential prices for the generic pilots to the ships people will be wanting. Here are the ships that matter from the conversion box.

2x y-wing, 2x x-wing, 2x a-wing, 2x b-wing, 3x z-95, 2x auzituck, 2x hwk-290, 2x e-wing

sum total = 17 ships. $50 / 17 = $2.94 price per ship

It is only natural that prices will get marked up on the secondhand market. CONCLUSION

  • Individual ship upgrades could be $6-$7 per ship
  • A set of upgrades for two ships could be $10-$12
  • Imperial ships will be more expensive based on what we now know about conversion boxes

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12 minutes ago, elfholme said:

I’m not saying don’t be angry/sad/disappointed (I’m disappointed), but don’t make false claims about how FFG has advertised this.

I’m not a lawyer, but I do have a degree in marketing.

You are arguing about facts, which is the wrong way to go about it. We FEEL that FFG has mislead us which matters more than their intentions or what they actually did. Our collective feelings of being mislead are very REAL. This is how human beings work, and that's a fact.

What do they say about a persons soul and being in marketing? I honestly don't remember.

 

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49 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Oh this took me an embarrassingly long time to comprehend

It's not nearly as bad as I thought it would be given the complaints, but still it's a pretty **** move to not allow you to field every combination of generic allowed by the ships in the kit. I am glad I don't care for swarm spam or I would be understandably upset.

Instead, I'm personally more disappointed by Braylen and Thane not getting back in their ARCs :(

I’m more disappointed by the ARCs still being Rebel.

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6 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

I mean, why wouldn't they be?

got the logo and everything

Good point - obviously we’ll be getting a sexy new paint job with the Republic version! :D

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Look, it's this simple:

FFG told me I could fully convert four Z-95s (per CK) from my 1.0 collection to a 2.0 collection.  But it's not true.

If I want to fly four Bandits in 1.0 I can.  If I want to fly four Bandits in 2.0, I cannot; I can fly only three.

That's not a conversion.  It's not what a reasonable person would expect, when knowing (1) that Bandits exist in 2.0, (2) that Bandits exist in the CK, and (3) that the CK (and marketing materials surrounding it) promises to convert four Z-95s.

That's misleading.  100%.  I'm saying nothing about motives, note.  But arguing that it's not misleading is disingenuous.

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19 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Look, it's this simple:

FFG told me I could fully convert four Z-95s (per CK) from my 1.0 collection to a 2.0 collection.  But it's not true.

 

But you can fully convert 4 Z-95s; just not the specific 4 you want.  There's nothing misleading in FFG's statement.  You just read more into it than was there to begin with.

 

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Bear in mind, folks, that when the wave-by-wave card packs are released you'll be buying extra cardboard and pilot cards, alleviating the generics issue. For instance, look at the X-Wing: only two of each generic pilot in the core set, but the wave 1 T-65 expansion baggy provides the cardboard necessary for an additional copy of each generic.

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42 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Look, it's this simple:

FFG told me I could fully convert four Z-95s (per CK) from my 1.0 collection to a 2.0 collection.  But it's not true.

If I want to fly four Bandits in 1.0 I can.  If I want to fly four Bandits in 2.0, I cannot; I can fly only three.

That's not a conversion.  It's not what a reasonable person would expect, when knowing (1) that Bandits exist in 2.0, (2) that Bandits exist in the CK, and (3) that the CK (and marketing materials surrounding it) promises to convert four Z-95s.

That's misleading.  100%.  I'm saying nothing about motives, note.  But arguing that it's not misleading is disingenuous.

So you won’t say anything about FFG’s motives, but you’ll say something about my motives? Awesome stuff. :)

I haven’t seen any marketing materials that said we could fully convert 4 Z-95s in one kit. Does that really exist? Do you have a link for that?

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8 minutes ago, gadwag said:

Bear in mind, folks, that when the wave-by-wave card packs are released you'll be buying extra cardboard and pilot cards, alleviating the generics issue. For instance, look at the X-Wing: only two of each generic pilot in the core set, but the wave 1 T-65 expansion baggy provides the cardboard necessary for an additional copy of each generic.

Do we know how much the expansion baggies cost? Because I’m trying to avoid that $20 per ship price tag for full expansions as much as I can. Are the baggies $10 or less? Anyone know?

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3 hours ago, Icelom said:

As per the info in this thread we have the exact counts... 

I used the images in that thread to get the counts. All the rest is simple logic based on the fact that the ship tokens are two sided. 

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3 hours ago, SabineKey said:

Yeah, that makes you happy, but that shafts someone else.

You make it sound like I’m the one player in the game who owns more than 3 A-Wings. 

I’m guessing more people are excited for the return of swarms then they are for the return of double fat turret lists. But maybe double fat turrets make you happy.

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1 hour ago, elfholme said:

Do we know how much the expansion baggies cost? Because I’m trying to avoid that $20 per ship price tag for full expansions as much as I can. Are the baggies $10 or less? Anyone know?

There are no expansion baggies yet. That’s still just a rumor.

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So it's clear to me now that the lovers of the Z-95 are ill-served by the conversion kits.  Their best bet is to wait for the presumably accelerated wave 4 and buy 8 new Z95 expansions.  It'll be just like 1st edition.  No cash grab, no sad pandas, no misleading marketing, just the gold standard of individual ship expansions.   

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1 hour ago, elfholme said:

Do we know how much the expansion baggies cost? Because I’m trying to avoid that $20 per ship price tag for full expansions as much as I can. Are the baggies $10 or less? Anyone know?

No one knows, and we won't know until FFG tell us, which won't be until after wave 1 release.

All they've said is "there will be a way to get new content without buying plastic [ships]". They were asked repeatedly on stream for details and would not say any more than that.

The baggies may not even be baggies for all we know, we've just assumed that they are from the way the wave 1 content was included in the conversion kit. 

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35 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

You make it sound like I’m the one player in the game who owns more than 3 A-Wings. 

I’m guessing more people are excited for the return of swarms then they are for the return of double fat turret lists. But maybe double fat turrets make you happy.

Not the intent. What I'm saying is that your solution isn't painless and isn't necessarily obvious. 

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5 hours ago, elfholme said:

I haven’t seen any marketing materials that said we could fully convert 4 Z-95s in one kit. Does that really exist? Do you have a link for that?

From the second edition FAQ:

The number of ships supported (by maneuver dials included) in each Conversion Kit are:

 https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/x-wing-second-edition/

I don't think it's out of the question to assume that 'supported' means 'fully convert'. 

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2 hours ago, __underscore__ said:

From the second edition FAQ:

The number of ships supported (by maneuver dials included) in each Conversion Kit are:

 https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/x-wing-second-edition/

I don't think it's out of the question to assume that 'supported' means 'fully convert'. 

I think this is where the two camps differ. I understand that statement to mean we can use 4 Z-95s, but not necessarily any 4 Z-95s using the conversions kits, and I assume that's what the other people who think the same as me also understood that sentence to mean. In fact, given the specificity of the language used (they talk about dials, not bases) I took that as more or less an admission you wouldn't be able to run any 4 ships in any combination you wanted using the kits.

This "fully convert" language is something that's been invented by one side of the debate so it's a little disingenuous (dare I say "misleading"?) to attribute that to FFG. Clearly their language in the marketing materials could have been better, but I'm a bit surprised that so many people made the assumptions they did.

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Quote

but I'm a bit surprised that so many people made the assumptions they did.

People do seem to love to invent a hypothetical scenario based on what they know that could upset someone, and then defend that position. just loving a good old complain. 

I saw this thing where someone doing the reductions in Tesco had accidentally put some sausages back in the wrong sleeves (or a customer had "hilariously" swapped a card sleeve over) So a customer has bought 8 beef sausages thinking they are 12 pork chipolatas.

Their complaint was immediately, I am Hindu and eating beef means i'm going to **** you have sent me to **** you are evil. (they weren't religious and they didn't even eat them) but peoples minds go straight to the worst thing that possibly could be becasue it's the best way to get compensation for it. People love trying to get compensation. There's all these forums about how to complain to Amazon to get free Prime for a month. etc.

Not that i'm saying that there aren't people that might want to run 8 Z95 generics, i'm sure there are, but they will be fine lots of people will have left over Z95 stuff to sell / trade. I will for one. Same for A-Wings. 

 

3 hours ago, __underscore__ said:

From the second edition FAQ:

The number of ships supported (by maneuver dials included) in each Conversion Kit are:

 https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/x-wing-second-edition/

I don't think it's out of the question to assume that 'supported' means 'fully convert'. 

 

Thing is though, what should they have said instead?

 

Maybe...

"3 * Z95 (any combination)  + 1 Z95 (Limited Options)

I think you are saying they should have given you everything, but the issue is that everytime they give you everything there's always the potential to just add 1 dial to give you A LOT more.

 

1 extra dial gives you loads more options and is a small amount of card to use up to do it. but then if you have to make up all the generics you got to add in tokens and cards and then yet again 1 extra dial gives you loads more options, you just go round in an infinite loop until you use the entire worlds cardboard resource counters.

 

Edited by Talonbane Cobra

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