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Will FFG comment on the generics issue?

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30 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I hate to admit it, because I was a huge fan of CKs when they were announced -- and I still think that conceptually they're the way to go -- but it really is looking more and more like FFG has screwed the pooch on these, from not paying attention to how many ships people have relative to other ships, to falsely advertising ("convert your entire collection"), to making it impossible to spam generics.

This is what they said in their advert: “Conversion kits available at launch will allow you to bring your entire collection of Rebel Alliance, Galactic Empire, and Scum and Villainy ships into the game’s second edition. These kits contain everything you need to build your own custom X-Wing Second Edition squadron, including new ship cards, tokens, upgrade cards, and maneuver dials. 

That’s not false advertising. It’s actually 100% truth. We may not like the final makeup of the contents (and as someone who flies generics more than uniques, I don’t), but it’s not false advertising. It’s not even misleading.

You *can* upgrade your entire collection using conversion kits. This is true no matter how big your collection is. It will just take multiple conversion kits if your collection is particularly large (like mine is).

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22 minutes ago, Icelom said:

My understanding was 1 kit gave 100pts worth of that ship to convert, but in the case of the above 3 ships it does not for there generics (if those numbers were correct and not an initial run typo)


I am a sad panda.

 

FFG never said the kits contained enough components to run 100 points of the ships in the kits.  It should be immediately obvious that that cannot be the case because the kits only included enough for 4 Zs or 4 TIE Fighters when we know those are the cheapest ships in the game and we could run 8 of them in 1st edition.

FFG never said you could run the ships in any possible configuration out of the conversion kits.  They never promised that one kit would let you run 4 bandits or 4 academies.

They said the kits will let you use your 1st edition models in 2.0 without having to rebuy all the expansions. One kit will let you fly 4 Zs or 4 TIEs, maybe not in the mix of pilots and upgrades you want, but you can fly them.

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4 minutes ago, Arschbombe said:

 

FFG never said the kits contained enough components to run 100 points of the ships in the kits.  It should be immediately obvious that that cannot be the case because the kits only included enough for 4 Zs or 4 TIE Fighters when we know those are the cheapest ships in the game and we could run 8 of them in 1st edition.

FFG never said you could run the ships in any possible configuration out of the conversion kits.  They never promised that one kit would let you run 4 bandits or 4 academies.

They said the kits will let you use your 1st edition models in 2.0 without having to rebuy all the expansions. One kit will let you fly 4 Zs or 4 TIEs, maybe not in the mix of pilots and upgrades you want, but you can fly them.

100x points is 4x z-95's or 4x tie fighters.... asuming they are as cheap as 1.0 ships.

not sure what you are getting on about.

the fact the only have enough generics for 3x z-95's when they said it converted 4 is what is bothering me.

Edited by Icelom

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4 hours ago, Talonbane Cobra said:

Well. Somehow it might not be a lie just yet. I don't see it though.

In fairness the easiest solution for them would be to say that the kit only supports one YT-1300, and one VCX and 1 ARC.

So you could view it like we are getting an extra dial which lets you run some extra combinations, but not fully. If I was them that's what I'd do, just say it only supports one of them but throw the extra dials in cos there's space.

 

This is what really frustrates me.  If I want to run two ships now, I  purchased two ships and have everything to run those ships in any combination. Because of this, when they previously said the kits contained what is necessary to run two of a ship, it was reasonable to expect it would contain the content to run two of any combination. It feels more like we have what we need to run 1 1/2 of some of these.

This could be even worse with Imperials, with more generics. I'm expecting the 4 TIE fighters to only have content for two Academy pilots now.

I have a medium sized collection; one of each kit covered what I needed pretty well. I was hoping the extras could be given to players with smaller collections as a way to keep more players That's probably not very doable now. The player base here was already pretty split. This is going to drive more away. I've been supportive of 2.0 up to this point, but now I'm more cautious.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Arschbombe said:

They said the kits will let you use your 1st edition models in 2.0 without having to rebuy all the expansions. One kit will let you fly 4 Zs or 4 TIEs, maybe not in the mix of pilots and upgrades you want, but you can fly them.

None of that has been made clear through their official channels. They could have easily told us this from the beginning, but have been unnecessarily vague to allow people to understandably misinterpret what is in the Conversion Kits. People are completely justified in thinking that when you write 3 A-Wings on the content list, that means you will be able to fly 3 A-Wing pilots of your choice in a single list, because that's been the norm. The fact that FFG used vague "technically correct" verbiage to cover their asses does not make FFG look any better in this.

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I feel more like what they did was put 2 of each small ship, 3 z's and one large and thought, "let's throw some more dials in for the more swarmable ships, and hey it's possible to fly 2 of the large ships with just an extra dial too so might as well add them in. Then they up the numbers on the box and everyone gets angry. My point is they could take out dials, claim less coverage and not get accused of being evil, but adding more stuff causes outrage.

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23 minutes ago, Icelom said:

100x points is 4x z-95's or 4x tie fighters.... asuming they are as cheap as 1.0 ships.

not sure what you are getting on about.

the fact the only have enough generics for 3x z-95's when they said it converted 4 is what is bothering me.

When you said convert 100 points to 2.0, I took it as 100 1st edition points.

The kit will let you run 4 Zs. You can run 2 bandits and 2 talas or 2 bandits/talas and airen and blount.

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46 minutes ago, elfholme said:

It’s not even misleading.

That's patently false, as many people were misled.  ****, I was misled, and I'm a @#$%ing lawyer, trained to parse language until it screams.

Be an apologist all you like, but at least be self-aware.  If the information as it's shaping up is what we actually get, FFG absolutely gave misleading information.  It's reasonable to argue whether it was accidental or intentional, but that's it.

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I mean 37 ships converted is like $1.35 a ship and that seems pretty good. If you say that actually it was originally goinng to be what... 5 less dials that's still 32 ships for $50. I think that's decent. People have been asking to be able to pay for individual ship upgrade packs for like $5 so well it seems a reasonable price.

FFG go "hey if we throw in a few more dials it can still actually help a lot of people convert more ships upset specific circumstances" and people complain.

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Let's say they turn around and say, ok we'll make it so you can run 4 generic z's of any type... But actually we have some space on the cardboard so here's another 2 Z dials. People will be like "omg now I don't have 6 of each generic, evil!"

Edited by Talonbane Cobra

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Just now, Talonbane Cobra said:

I mean 37 ships converted is like $1.35 a ship and that seems pretty good. If you say that actually it was originally goinng to be what... 5 less dials that's still 32 ships for $50. I think that's decent. People have been asking to be able to pay for individual ship upgrade packs for like $5 so well it seems a reasonable price.

FFG go "hey if we throw in a few more dials it can still actually help a lot of people convert more ships upset specific circumstances" and people complain.

I would be less annoyed if it says 2x A-wings, 3x Z-95's but that is not what the kit said.

As it stands i wont get 3x kits i will wait for the z-95 and a-wing expansions or make trades if i can.

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A lot of this seems to be prognostications based on speculation about how the ship tokens are backprinted. So let's look at what we have:

43 Ship Tokens with 2 sides each for 86 surfaces. 

There are 84 total pilot cards, of which 36 are generics and therefore 48 are uniques.

If (for example) we assume that no generics occupy both surfaces of the same token then we would have 36 of the 43 tokens with a generic on one side and a unique on the other. That leaves 7 tokens to cover the remaining 12 uniques. So five tokens where uniques are backprinted with each other and two one sides tokens. Those five cases could be uniques that for reason of points or otherwise we don't know of yet can't fit into the same squad. 

Were this correct then one kit would support (for example) 6 generic Z-95s or 4 generic T-65s. 

So there are enough surfaces - it all goes down to how they laid out the backprinting. 

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1 minute ago, Joelist said:

A lot of this seems to be prognostications based on speculation about how the ship tokens are backprinted. So let's look at what we have:

43 Ship Tokens with 2 sides each for 86 surfaces. 

There are 84 total pilot cards, of which 36 are generics and therefore 48 are uniques.

If (for example) we assume that no generics occupy both surfaces of the same token then we would have 36 of the 43 tokens with a generic on one side and a unique on the other. That leaves 7 tokens to cover the remaining 12 uniques. So five tokens where uniques are backprinted with each other and two one sides tokens. Those five cases could be uniques that for reason of points or otherwise we don't know of yet can't fit into the same squad. 

Were this correct then one kit would support (for example) 6 generic Z-95s or 4 generic T-65s. 

So there are enough surfaces - it all goes down to how they laid out the backprinting. 

The only way that would be possible is if they put different ship types on the opposite sides of the same base, which means there would be combinations of different ships that you couldn't fly, and that would also make trading a complete nightmare if trading away my Z-95 also meant giving away a like a random Y-Wing base or something. I am 99% sure that every physical base will only have 1 type of ship on each side. 

Check out my breakdown for the most likely combination of pilots&bases here: 

 

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I do think it was very reasonable to interpret the phrase “convert a ship”, to mean for each converted ship you’d be able to fly it as any pilot, just as you could with the 1.0 version.  Two 1.0 expansions has always meant you could fly those 2 ships in any combination, so it was natural to assume this is what would be true after conversion.  The only figure they gave us for how many of each we’d be able to thus convert was based on the number of dials, which they quote under the heading How many ships does each Conversion Kit convert?”, so it was natural to assume you’d end up with the equivelent of that many expansions for that ship, minus redundant cards.

What I’m not convinced about is that this was deliberate misinformation of FFG’s part.  My hunch is it was just short sighted wording.

Edited by mazz0

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22 minutes ago, Joelist said:

A lot of this seems to be prognostications based on speculation about how the ship tokens are backprinted. So let's look at what we have:

43 Ship Tokens with 2 sides each for 86 surfaces. 

There are 84 total pilot cards, of which 36 are generics and therefore 48 are uniques.

If (for example) we assume that no generics occupy both surfaces of the same token then we would have 36 of the 43 tokens with a generic on one side and a unique on the other. That leaves 7 tokens to cover the remaining 12 uniques. So five tokens where uniques are backprinted with each other and two one sides tokens. Those five cases could be uniques that for reason of points or otherwise we don't know of yet can't fit into the same squad. 

Were this correct then one kit would support (for example) 6 generic Z-95s or 4 generic T-65s. 

So there are enough surfaces - it all goes down to how they laid out the backprinting. 

As per the info in this thread we have the exact counts... 

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Generic numbers are a little disappointing - here's hoping that the waves come fairly soon. With any luck the named pilots will keep me occupied till then.

Fortunately we will probably be able to buy wave cardboard separately once (e.g.) the 2.0 z-95 are released. A-wing will likely be wave 2 or 3, I imagine. So those will be easy to fill out.

I'm going to be waiting for wave cardboard packs beyond my single conversion kits - hopefully the wave packs will be by ship but possibly by wave - much more efficient than buying whole conversion kits you don't need or bloating my collection (I only own two zs) with cardboard I'll not need.

Keeping the kit price under control was probably pretty high on the list - and from a business standpoint, it's likely "how many can we afford to fit at a $50 price point?" - design compromises happen all the time with printing and layout. So I get why the kits are the way they are.

as for maul - well I'll just buy whichever scum wave cardboard pack has him if I want him and I still won't have bought a scum ship I didn't want and it will still have cost less than autothrusters. Not that I'm defending the previous upgrade sale system - it caused me to quit x-wing for a few years - but it seems like a significantly improved customer experience so I'm willing to see if FFG have changed their ways... let's see how it goes.

 

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11 minutes ago, Shoulder of Orion said:

Keeping the kit price under control was probably pretty high on the list - and from a business standpoint, it's likely "how many can we afford to fit at a $50 price point?" - design compromises happen all the time with printing and layout. So I get why the kits are the way they are.

Again, they could have kept the kits the same price or even cheaper by cutting the extra large ship dials they gave us and including twice as many small ship bases on the punchboard. 

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9 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

Again, they could have kept the kits the same price or even cheaper by cutting the extra large ship dials they gave us and including twice as many small ship bases on the punchboard. 

Yeah, that makes you happy, but that shafts someone else.

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48 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

The only way that would be possible is if they put different ship types on the opposite sides of the same base....

I think this might be what happens with a X-wing and HWK-290 base. The contents breakdown includes 7 X-Wing and 5 HWK-290 cards, the only two sets of Pilot Cards with odd numbers. So unless the X-Wing and HWK-290 have an "extra" of one of the generics on it's back side, such as a third Rebel Scout, Blue Squadron Escort or Red Squadron Veteran base without an additional pilot card, then it is at least possible we will see a x-wing/hwk base.

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Oh this took me an embarrassingly long time to comprehend

It's not nearly as bad as I thought it would be given the complaints, but still it's a pretty **** move to not allow you to field every combination of generic allowed by the ships in the kit. I am glad I don't care for swarm spam or I would be understandably upset.

Instead, I'm personally more disappointed by Braylen and Thane not getting back in their ARCs :(

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