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Scum4Life

Will FFG comment on the generics issue?

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Well. Somehow it might not be a lie just yet. I don't see it though.

In fairness the easiest solution for them would be to say that the kit only supports one YT-1300, and one VCX and 1 ARC.

So you could view it like we are getting an extra dial which lets you run some extra combinations, but not fully. If I was them that's what I'd do, just say it only supports one of them but throw the extra dials in cos there's space.

 

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45 minutes ago, Talonbane Cobra said:

Well. Somehow it might not be a lie just yet. I don't see it though.

In fairness the easiest solution for them would be to say that the kit only supports one YT-1300, and one VCX and 1 ARC.

So you could view it like we are getting an extra dial which lets you run some extra combinations, but not fully. If I was them that's what I'd do, just say it only supports one of them but throw the extra dials in cos there's space.

 

Yup... I 100% agree with that statement.  The number of people pissed off by the reduced contents would be drastically reduced.  Especially when you consider that the U-Wing has a v2.0 Wave XIV release anyways, so who needs 3 U Wing dials anyways =P.  (Yes, I know there will be people).  And the YT-1300, YT-2400, VCX-100, Rebel-Era ARC-170, Sabine's TIE, Phantom I, Phantom II, and the HWK-290 were all supposed to be unique one-off ships anyways.  They aren't fielded in mass by the Rebels, so supporting only one of each at least thematically makes sense.

And then you could use the extra cardboard space to give us the missing A-Wing and Z-95 ship tokens that we need.  And then it's only 2 extra pilot cards (delete second YT-2400 & HWK-290 generic) in exchange for 8 dials (though pretty much the space of 2 are converted to ship tokens).  I call that a win for them, it provides a better product for us, and then there's at least a response for why we're getting the numbers we are getting.  It even makes sense in how they named the expansions in v1.0.  It's not the YT-1300 expansion, it's the Millennium Falcon expansion, and this conversion kit converts the MF to v2.0.  Same thing for the Ghost vs. VCX-100.

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1 hour ago, Talonbane Cobra said:

Well. Somehow it might not be a lie just yet. I don't see it though.

In fairness the easiest solution for them would be to say that the kit only supports one YT-1300, and one VCX and 1 ARC.

So you could view it like we are getting an extra dial which lets you run some extra combinations, but not fully. If I was them that's what I'd do, just say it only supports one of them but throw the extra dials in cos there's space.

Yeah, but it's kind of late for that now isn't it. 

Also they should have used the extra space for those dials to give us extra bases for the high volume ships like A-Wings and Z-95s. I would happily trade the extra dials for the VCX, YT-1300 and YT-2400 for 2 more A-Wings and 1 more Z-95 generic bases. Then 2 conversion kits would actually fully cover every possible 200 point squad like we originally thought it would. 

That's the thing that really gets me is that they decided to include a 2nd dial for VCX, YT-1300 and YT-2400 when they could have used that space to include the necessary bases for more A-Wing and Z-95 generics. So now if I buy 2 conversion kits, I will have 6 useless dials for all those big ships and still not have enough components to fly all A-Wings or Z-95s that are legal in a 200 point list. And they did that intentionally.

Edited by Tvboy

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16 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

That's the thing that really gets me is that they decided to include a 2nd dial for VCX, YT-1300 and YT-2400 when they could have used that space to include the necessary bases for more A-Wing and Z-95 generics. 

Add in X and Y wings, too. Basically, as far as I'm concerned, there should have only been one (generic base and dial) for each large based ship, and maybe the same for medium.

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2 hours ago, Khyros said:

Your list is a bit wrong.

ARC-170 has 4 uniques, 0 generics.  U-Wing only has 2 uniques.  

I'm not too concerned about the lack of a second generic on the YT-1300 and VCX-100.  Really I think they could have gotten away with just giving us 1 dial for those and we wouldn't really be complaining that much.

It's the A-Wing and Z-95 that's awful. Why do I have 3 A-Wing dials and not 3 B-Wings if I can't run 3 generic A-Wings?

Good spot, now I'll have to check my numbers.

 

And also two great points, why not scale back the large / expensive / Unique ships content to boost the more common / cheaper ships.

 

I'd rather have single conversion for ARC / YT-1300 / YT-2400 / VCX-100 / ASSAULT SHUTTLE / SHEATHIPEDE etc

 

And use that saved money and cardboard to get 2-4 complete conversions for the others ships

Ideally each kit would fully convert at least half a squads worth of each ship unless it's a unique.

I guess I'll just use the wrong inserts with friends in casual games.

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14 minutes ago, Scum4Life said:

And also two great points, why not scale back the large / expensive / Unique ships content to boost the more common / cheaper ships.

Sales and Marketing. Allows them to inflate the number of ships advertised in the box to make it look like it's a great value while still forcing people to buy multiple 2-3 conversion kits if they want to fully convert their existing collection. 

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14 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

Sales and Marketing. Allows them to inflate the number of ships advertised in the box to make it look like it's a great value while still forcing people to buy multiple 2-3 conversion kits if they want to fully convert their existing collection. 

People would then just have to buy 2 to convert multiples of those ships. There isn't really a way to please everyone.

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1 minute ago, __underscore__ said:

People would then just have to buy 2 to convert multiples of those ships. There isn't really a way to please everyone.

I'm not following how this is different from the current setup? You are going to have to buy 2 conversion kits if you want to fly more than 2 of the same small/medium ship in a list. 

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Just now, Tvboy said:

I'm not following how this is different from the current setup? You are going to have to buy 2 conversion kits if you want to fly more than 2 of the same small/medium ship in a list. 

It wouldn't be any better, that's what I'm saying. 

But I don't think what you're saying there is particularly accurate, I thought it looks like you won't be able to field specific mixes of named and generic pilots (from what we can tell)?

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So now that we know which pilot cards are included and the total number of ship bases we're getting (excluding the wave 1 content packaged separately), let's try and guess what the actual bases are going to look like. * next to a ship means certain 2 pilot combinations will not be possible without a 2nd conversion kit.

4 - T-65: Biggs//Blue, Garven//Red, Wedge//Garven, Blue//Red

3 - Y-Wing: Dutch//Gold, Horton//Gray, Gold//Gray

3 - A-Wing: Arvel//Green, Jake//Phoenix, Green//Phoenix

3 - B-Wing: Braylen//Blue, Ten//Blade, Blue//Blade

3 - Z-95: Cracken//Bandit, Blount//Tala, Bandit//Tala

2 - Auzituck: Low//Defender, Wulff//Defender

2* - Attack Shuttle : Ezra//Zeb, Hera//Sabine

2* - Sheatipede: AP-5//Ezra, Fenn//Zeb

3 - HWK: Jan//Scout, Kyle//Roark, Roark//Scout

2* - TIE/ln: Rex//Zeb, Ezra//Sabine

3 - E-Wing: Corran//Knave, Gavin//Rogue, Knave//Rogue

2* - U-Wing: Cassian//Heff, Bodhi//Blue

2 - K-Wing: Miranda//Warden, Esege//Warden

2* - Arc-170: Norra//Ibtisam, Shara//Garven

3 - YT-1300: Han//ORS, Chewie//ORS, Lando//ORS

2* - VCX: Hera//Chopper, Kanan//Lothal

2 - YT-2400: Dash//Fringer, Leebo//Fringer

That's a total of 43 ship bases. So at least 6 ships will have some kind of impossible pilot combinations without multiple conversion kits depending on how they combine the pilots and bases. 

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10 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

People would then just have to buy 2 to convert multiples of those ships. There isn't really a way to please everyone.

No, because there are far more people who own 0 of the Large ships, so trading for them (or buying them) is much more viable.  (Not to mention, if each CK contained 1 (of each) Large ship, when you acquire it you can actually be sure of getting all of it.  That's not true if you try to acquire, say, 1 A-wing from someone who only needs 2.)

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1 minute ago, Jeff Wilder said:

No, because there are far more people who own 0 of the Large ships, so trading for them (or buying them) is much more viable.  (Not to mention, if each CK contained 1 (of each) Large ship, when you acquire it you can actually be sure of getting all of it.  That's not true if you try to acquire, say, 1 A-wing from someone who only needs 2.)

To counter, there are also far more people who own 1 of Large ship as opposed to the 2 dials being provided. They could have swapped out the 2nd dial for the YT-1300, 2400 and VCX for additional generic bases for the small ships and it would have been the same amount of punchboard space (less actually since bases take up less than half the space of dials). 

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Just now, Tvboy said:

To counter, there are also far more people who own 1 of Large ship as opposed to the 2 dials being provided. They could have swapped out the 2nd dial for the YT-1300, 2400 and VCX for additional generic bases for the small ships and it would have been the same amount of punchboard space (less actually since bases take up less than half the space of dials). 

 ... You're not countering, you're arguing for the same thing I am.

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7 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

No, because there are far more people who own 0 of the Large ships, so trading for them (or buying them) is much more viable.

I somewhat doubt the number of people with 0 large base ships is particularly significant, especially considering Heroes of the Resistance was a thing.

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28 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

I'm not following how this is different from the current setup? You are going to have to buy 2 conversion kits if you want to fly more than 2 of the same small/medium ship in a list. 

Or you can buy the single ship expansion and not waste money on a pile of crap you don’t need. I am convinced now trading is going to be difficult at best. You can’t trade for 1 thing as you need the dial. Therefore to buy or trade any ship second hand is going to amount to the booster minus upgrades as anything less negates any later trade.

I think buying multiple conversion kits is kinda silly seeing as people have pretty much figured out what’s in them pilotwise with an acceptable margin for error. I really think their value goes exponentially down for every one you buy past the first.

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4 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:

Or you can buy the single ship expansion and not waste money on a pile of crap you don’t need. I am convinced now trading is going to be difficult at best. You can’t trade for 1 thing as you need the dial. Therefore to buy or trade any ship second hand is going to amount to the booster minus upgrades as anything less negates any later trade.

I think buying multiple conversion kits is kinda silly seeing as people have pretty much figured out what’s in them pilotwise with an acceptable margin for error. I really think their value goes exponentially down for every one you buy past the first.

The single ship expansions aren't going to be available for months. That was the point of the conversion kits. 

You are correct that every conversion kit after the first has diminishing returns BECAUSE of the way FFG designed them. They could have designed it so that 2 kits perfectly covered every possible list build with the same number of components. 

So now 2.0 is a choice between buying 3 conversion kits, or not getting to play swarms and being forced to fly 3-ship named pilot squads, just like in 1.0.

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I hate to admit it, because I was a huge fan of CKs when they were announced -- and I still think that conceptually they're the way to go -- but it really is looking more and more like FFG has screwed the pooch on these, from not paying attention to how many ships people have relative to other ships, to falsely advertising ("convert your entire collection"), to making it impossible to spam generics.

CKs should have simply been literally everything you need to convert X numbers of ships.  If a CK is supposed to contain three TIE Interceptors, for instance, it would have three Soontir Fel cards and bases.  And so on.  Every component in a CK would then have use, whether to the purchaser or to someone else, and if players were willing to make the effort, nothing in a CK would go to waste.

I am -- again, reluctantly, because I simply don't want to believe it -- beginning to believe that FFG did things in the fashion they've done intentionally.  (Or at least negligently.)  Perhaps they feared that making CKs more efficient and more expensive would lead to fewer sales.  And they might be right.  (Or they might not be: if I were convinced that every component of a CK were usable, to others if not to me, I would have already ordered two of each, instead of one of each.)  But customer goodwill has real, measurable, value ... and I'm watching that goodwill disappear, slowly but steadily.

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1 hour ago, Tvboy said:

I'm not following how this is different from the current setup? You are going to have to buy 2 conversion kits if you want to fly more than 2 of the same small/medium ship in a list. 

A-wings, Z-95's and U-wings do not convert to generics for all the dials they have.

I have 5x A-wings the kit says it converts 3x i should have been good with only 2x kits, but now need 3x kits to fully run a-wing generics. 
I have 1 U-wing so will be ok on those But others might have 2 and want to run 2x generics.
I have 8x Z-95's so in order to convert all of those i would need a 3rd kit. unless the 2.0 Z-95's are costed so you can only run 6x of them in a list (doubt it) then you need 3x kits to run a full same generic list of them.

This seems really short sighted to not include 3x more pieces of cardboard to have the kit do what it claims to do.

My understanding was 1 kit gave 100pts worth of that ship to convert, but in the case of the above 3 ships it does not for there generics (if those numbers were correct and not an initial run typo)

I am a sad panda.

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22 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I hate to admit it, because I was a huge fan of CKs when they were announced -- and I still think that conceptually they're the way to go -- but it really is looking more and more like FFG has screwed the pooch on these, from not paying attention to how many ships people have relative to other ships, to falsely advertising ("convert your entire collection"), to making it impossible to spam generics.

CKs should have simply been literally everything you need to convert X numbers of ships.  If a CK is supposed to contain three TIE Interceptors, for instance, it would have three Soontir Fel cards and bases.  And so on.  Every component in a CK would then have use, whether to the purchaser or to someone else, and if players were willing to make the effort, nothing in a CK would go to waste.

I am -- again, reluctantly, because I simply don't want to believe it -- beginning to believe that FFG did things in the fashion they've done intentionally.  (Or at least negligently.)  Perhaps they feared that making CKs more efficient and more expensive would lead to fewer sales.  And they might be right.  (Or they might not be: if I were convinced that every component of a CK were usable, to others if not to me, I would have already ordered two of each, instead of one of each.)  But customer goodwill has real, measurable, value ... and I'm watching that goodwill disappear, slowly but steadily.

I think putting in redundant unique pilots would have been a giant waste and pushed the price up for very little reason.

However i do think not including full generic conversion on all the ships is just a **** move and hope that its a type-o.

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1 minute ago, Icelom said:

I think putting in redundant unique pilots would have been a giant waste and pushed the price up for very little reason.

However i do think not including full generic conversion on all the ships is just a **** move and hope that its a type-o.

We've already pointed out to you that they could have increased the number of generic bases by cutting the redundant large ship dials and kept the cost the same or even lowered the cost. 1 dial is the same size on the punchboard as 2 small ship bases, and also requires that little black plastic peg. 

This was done intentionally to screw certain players and force duplicate CK purchases for certain lists.  

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5 minutes ago, Icelom said:

I think putting in redundant unique pilots would have been a giant waste and pushed the price up for very little reason.

I simply don't consider "I have two Interceptors and my friend has one, so we can legitimately share a CK" to be "very little reason."  I think it's an incredibly compelling reason, in fact.

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Also important to keep in mind, this kind of stuff is likely not decided by Alex Davy and the development team. This was most likely engineered by some greedy executive **** that cares more about milking extra cash out of players than preserving goodwill with the playerbase.

I would guess the devs had no control over this, although we may learn more about that in tomorrow's AMA. 

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