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Scum4Life

Will FFG comment on the generics issue?

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Got a close look at the Wave I baggie insert card:

“This bag contains additional components for the T-65 X-Wing and the BTL-A4 Y-Wing. These components are not reflected in the component list found in the conversion kit. 

CONTENTS

3 Small Ship Tokens

3 Ship Cards

- Evaan Verlaine

- Norra Wexley

- Thane Kyrell”

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The maths is a little tricky, because some of the ships need different things. 

It's 87 total pilot cards if you include the three additional pilot cards from the Wave 1 content bag (Thane, Norra, Evaan). There's also 3 extra ship tokens in there (one for each unique pilot) for a total of 46.

52 of those pilots are unique, so already we can see that there aren't enough bases for every single unique pilot to have its own base. 

That means that for ships like the Attack Shuttle or ARC-170, where all pilots are unique, there must be some doubling up of unique pilots on ship bases. That's how the bases come in their respective 1e expansions, but it's fine there because you can only field one of the ships per expansion anyway. If you want more ships, you get more bases.

So it's likely that, for ships like the ARC at least, you won't be able to fly them in any combination of pairings with only 1 conversion kit.

If you assume that all such ships will be doubling up, including the large bases (Chewie on the back of Han, for example), you end up only needing 40 or 41 bases (The HWK makes it weird) to have 1 for each unique on the 'normal' ships (i.e 2 generic 2 unique, or 2 generic 4 unique). 

My guess is that the remaining five tokens are extra double generic tokens (i.e. one of possible generic on either side) for the A-Wing, B-Wing, E-Wing, and 2x Z-95, and possibly an extra one for the HWK if it's not included in my above doubling up. 

That would let you field each of those ships with any combination of generics or aces, up to a max of their included ship card total. 

That's a total guess, though. It might be a way more granular breakdown based on ship type. I'd say chances are good that the X-Wing, Y-Wing, B-Wing, A-Wing and E-Wing will be able to fly two of either generic or any combination of unique pilots, and that the Z-95 should be able to fly three of either generic. Beyond that, it's still really difficult to say. 

 

 

Edited by GuacCousteau

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So we won't have enough generics to run them on the amount of ships we are converting (no double generic yet-1300, vcx100. No 4 ps1 z's or 3 green squad As etc). I feel that is a poor decision. And even though Maul came with sheathipede expansion and the new card has already been shown to have the "can equip if Ezra is in your list" it looks like you have to buy the scum converter to get his card. There's another x-wing 2.0 promise that didn't seem to make it through to game launch. 

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On 6/3/2018 at 7:08 AM, Vontoothskie said:

for me to convert the 3 primary factions of my collection (no FO, resistance, or epics) it will cost me $350 to convert $700 worth of ships.

%50 conversion cost.

thats 1 core plus 2 conversion kits of each faction.  and even then that doesnt recoup or convert my epic ships.

in short im not doing that. ill just buy a handmade leather jacket or a new Console and games...

Hey....but I'm a happy troll! I've been freed from the chains of Mordor, and am roaming the countryside trolling innocent farmers when I feel like it instead of all the time! Lol.

 

Seriously, though; 

I've got a pretty extensive three-faction collection as well. I simply cannot pay to play all of them in 2.0.

Frankly, I can't even afford my entire core faction right now...Rebels. 

I made a firm decision to go with Resistance, and am gonna scrounge leftovers for a couple rebel ship conversions while I wait for my faction in wave 2. 

Hard choice, but I'm happy with it. 

Saving all my other ships for a rainy day in a decade or two when I can play with my kid or something. 

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Needing two conversion kits to field all of the aces lines up with needing two to field a swarm of the generics, no? Seems to more or less check out to me.

48 minutes ago, ElricStormbringer said:

And even though Maul came with sheathipede expansion and the new card has already been shown to have the "can equip if Ezra is in your list" it looks like you have to buy the scum converter to get his card. There's another x-wing 2.0 promise that didn't seem to make it through to game launch. 

The promise always included the caveat "not necessarily at exactly the same time". It is a weird omission, though.

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11 hours ago, pkreynolds said:

It's unreasonable to expect FFG to include enough components in a single conversion kit to accommodate EVERY player in the world. There are people who bought twenty X-Wings, after all.

However, a single conversion kit should contain enough components to field a standard list full of each ship type. So, four or five X-Wings, probably five A-Wings, etc. That's a minimum expectation for the limitations the designers have imposed on the "standard" format of their games. Loads of X-Wing players have enough ships to meet these minimum requirements. They drove X-Wing into the ground with their design decisions (and yes, the outdated limitations on the original design space) and they need to earn back our trust. Personally, I'm not 100% confidant saying that I don't see them doing it again in a few years with 2.0. power creep is real. FFG is a business and they need to find ways to get people to keep buying new stuff. 

I get the "secondary market" argument but that takes responsibility away from FFG to do the right thing. They can either build good will right at the start if these kits are fully satisfactory, or create ill will if they drop the ball on the starting line.

couldnt agree more

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11 hours ago, pkreynolds said:

It's unreasonable to expect FFG to include enough components in a single conversion kit to accommodate EVERY player in the world. There are people who bought twenty X-Wings, after all.

However, a single conversion kit should contain enough components to field a standard list full of each ship type. So, four or five X-Wings, probably five A-Wings, etc. That's a minimum expectation for the limitations the designers have imposed on the "standard" format of their games. Loads of X-Wing players have enough ships to meet these minimum requirements. They drove X-Wing into the ground with their design decisions (and yes, the outdated limitations on the original design space) and they need to earn back our trust. Personally, I'm not 100% confidant saying that I don't see them doing it again in a few years with 2.0. power creep is real. FFG is a business and they need to find ways to get people to keep buying new stuff. 

I get the "secondary market" argument but that takes responsibility away from FFG to do the right thing. They can either build good will right at the start if these kits are fully satisfactory, or create ill will if they drop the ball on the starting line.

I disagree. To do that would probably double the cost of the conversion kit due to all the extra cardboard/cards and bases. Then you'd have alot of justified complaints that the conversion packs are just too expensive and "WTF FFG, i only have 1 of each ship, i don't need all that extra stuff". Tournie goers and forum dwellers are the most avid fans generally, and have the most stuff, but are not by any means the only existing player base. There's tons of peeps out there that have a slack handful of ships, not 5 A-Wings etc. Conversion packs need to satisfy that segment of the player base too.

Product development doesn't happen in a vacuum. Marketing and manufacturing have a say too. FFG probably decided that $50 was the price point to go for and worked from there, to keep the number of SKU's sane and to prevent too much sticker shock for the highest proportion of their player base. From that, the amount of cards and cardboard in a box is more or less set.

Edited by Max Teranous

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I was and still mostly am fine with the conversion kits. But i have to say that i am a little disappointed that they don't even seem to cover all possibilities within the offerings of the conversion kit.

We are missing up to 7 generic pilots (depending on how expensive the Falcon or the Ghost will be) and that a card like Maul is missing from the Rebel Kit as well is frustrating.

They are risking a lot of goodwill with thise rather arbitrary decisions. Would it really hurt their bottom line to add those 8 cards?

I gues Rebels will get access to Maul in a later expansion but for Veterans that is gentle smack in the face.

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if this content list is correct, I am utterly pissed! Almost every ship in my hangar exists at least twice, most of them 3 and  4 times. This content is not only a problem regarding generics for me. With having my daughter playing this game as well on tournaments and often playing the same lists as I do this content would mean to spend an amount of money which I am not willing to spend. 2 Core Boxes and 2 of each conversion kits at least? Really? Are you kidding me FFG?

This is not nearly what was announced.

Edited by Malazath

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1 hour ago, Malazath said:

 With having my daughter playing this game as well on tournaments and often playing the same lists as I do this content would mean to spend an amount of money which I am not willing to spend. 2 Core Boxes and 2 of each conversion kits at least? Really? Are you kidding me FFG?

This is not nearly what was announced.

I don't understand. 

You and your daughter both want to fly Luke, let's say. You're upset you need 2 cores to do that? You want core set pilots in the conversion kits? You want unique pilots included twice in the conversions?

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Ship

Dials

Generics 

Uniques

Required Inserts

Supplied

Missing

ARC-170

2

1

3

3

2

1

Auzituck Gunship

2

1

2

2

2

0

A-wing

3

2

2

4

3

1

B-wing

2

2

2

3

3

0

E-wing

2

2

2

3

3

0

Ghost

2

1

3

3

2

1

HWK-290

2

1

3

3

3

0

K-wing

2

1

2

2

2

0

Phantom II

2

0

4

3

2

1

Phantom I

2

0

4

3

2

1

Sabine’s TIE Fighter

2

0

4

3

2

1

U-wing

2

1

3

3

2

1

X-wing

2

2

3

4

4

0

YT-1300

2

1

3

3

2

1

YT-2400

2

1

2

2

2

0

Y-wing

2

2

2

3

3

0

Z-95 Headhunter

4

2

2

5

4

1

             
     

Totals

52

43

9

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So we are missing 9 inserts and pilot cards. How much extra would 18 pieces of cardboard be, 5 dollars?

Generics are great and so is being able to field any combination of unique pilots.

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4 minutes ago, Scum4Life said:

So we are missing 9 inserts and pilot cards. How much extra would 18 pieces of cardboard be, 5 dollars?

Generics are great and so is being able to field any combination of unique pilots.

So those listed 'Required Inserts' numbers are what you need to run any combination of the given ships? 

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I'm very disappointed we don't get generics to match dials on a couple of ships. This won't affect me personally as much, at least on rebels. I can definitely feel for others who were looking to run lots of Z's or need to pair unique pilots on ships.

 

Maybe we're gonna get lucky and it'll be pilots on multiple ships get opposite sides of a ship base. That would free up some ability to run mutiple uniques with less overlap in some cases. Probably won't work out for all ship types.

 

While disappointed, I'm not upset. The value on these kits is still great.

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12 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

So those listed 'Required Inserts' numbers are what you need to run any combination of the given ships? 

Yes, I could have labelled it "Maximum required inserts"

Edited by Scum4Life
Addition information

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18 minutes ago, Scum4Life said:

So we are missing 9 inserts and pilot cards. How much extra would 18 pieces of cardboard be, 5 dollars?

Generics are great and so is being able to field any combination of unique pilots.

Your list is a bit wrong.

ARC-170 has 4 uniques, 0 generics.  U-Wing only has 2 uniques.  

 

I'm less concerned about the ARC, Sabine's TIE, Phantom I and Phantom II though.  At least if you pick up 2 conversion kits, you'll end up being able to run all 4 of those.  And to some extent, I'm not too concerned about the lack of a second generic on the YT-1300 and VCX-100.  Really I think they could have gotten away with just giving us 1 dial for those and we wouldn't really be complaining that much.  If I think about as we get enough for a single one, and they're giving us a second dial so we can proxy a ship as a Falcon, then good deal.

It's the A-Wing and Z-95 that's awful.  These are the ships you're most likely to need numerous generics, and they're they ships they're skimping on the generics.  I really question why we have 3 A-Wing dials, it seems to be the *only* thing extra they're giving us for the ship.  Otherwise, it's absolutely identical to a Y-Wing or E-Wing or B-Wing.  Sure, we have 3 sets of cardboard, but we have 3 sets of B-Wing cardboard as well.  Why do I have 3 A-Wing dials and not 3 B-Wings if I can't run 3 generic A-Wings?

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2 hours ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

Didn’t they take the actions off the base so it now just has an initiative and arc/lines. Why did they put pilot names at all?  We can use the Lock markers to differentiate. 

This! Given the new base insert design, why have any ship specific information at all?

They could have printed only the quadrants, center lines, and bullseye lines on 8 small inserts, 6 medium inserts, and 4 large inserts and use the number markers as the sole identification.

Done. No shortage of bases for any combination of pilot cards!*

*In standard play

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3 minutes ago, nitrobenz said:

This! Given the new base insert design, why have any ship specific information at all?

They could have printed only the quadrants, center lines, and bullseye lines on 8 small inserts, 6 medium inserts, and 4 large inserts and use the number markers as the sole identification.

Done. No shortage of bases for any combination of pilot cards!*

*In standard play

I've commented on this before, a brilliant idea but not one that makes FFG money. But one I'll be doing so I don't have to buy another two conversion kits. Those **** Z's, perhaps I should just sell two.

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