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Scum4Life

Will FFG comment on the generics issue?

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13 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

thats 1 core plus 2 conversion kits of each faction.  and even then that doesnt recoup or convert my epic ships.

in short im not doing that.

That's good, 'cause you shouldn't be doing that anyway. Without knowing the point costs of the ships and upgrades or even what upgrades will be allowed on what ships, you don't have any idea of how many of what can you field in a normal game. While it might be unlikely, it's entirely possible that you won't be able to field more ships of a single type than the number that come in a core set + 1 conversion kit. For all we know, the A-wing, TIE Fighter, Z-95 and Fang Fighter are the only ships that can be fielded in a swarm. Seriously, there is still so much unknown about 2.0 that planning to buy dials for your entire collection is almost guaranteed to be a mistake.

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I did all of this math a while ago, and keep updating it as more information is shown.  We will *not* be getting enough cardboard bases for all ships.  With all of the information we have (specifically on the Rebels) we know that there have to be at least 41 ship tokens.  That is strictly based on dials and the fact that we know the X Wing and Y wing upgrade contents*.  But that leaves us short on A Wings, B Wings, E Wings, Ghost, HWK, YT1300, Phantom 1, Phantom 2, Sabine's TIE, U Wing, and Z95.  Two of those can be fixed with the 2 unaccounted for dials, but which two is unknown at this point.  We're also 10 pilot cards over the "required" amount.  

 

So then if we were to remove the X-Wing and Y-Wing content from the total, we'd be pulling 8 bases and 16 pilot cards.  Those 8 bases, coupled with the two we have left over, would still leave a single ship without full coverage.  It would also mean that the rebel conversion kit unboxing by some non-FFG dude left 6 pilot cards out for some reason. 

All of this is coming from my master tracker here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DMqgr3MQPStvLtLQRCLr0b_hcvNz53Sow7IGB7gXN_U/edit#gid=674325871   



*Not technically the Y Wing, but we know what pilots there are, and how they're treating the X-Wing in 2.0, and therefore can have highly accurate conclusions on the Y-Wing's breakdown

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On 6/1/2018 at 10:09 PM, Frostthorn said:

Its called Ebay... not everyone needs all of the inserts, many people (and stores) are going to be parting the kits out to meet these needs. I am one of those people who have 5-6 of everything, I am only getting 1 kit of each then hitting second hand sales to fill in lists I like to fly. I won't waste money, I'll get exactally what I need and I won't have any extra stress.

Thing about this is that I have bought 2 copies of imperial and rebel kits, planning to list extras on e-bay but since I won't get enough generics in one box I won't be selling the generics from the second kit now, and since the generic ship token will be on the other side of a named pilot token i can't sell the named pilot either, so i'm only going to end up having just the dials spare and not a lot else.

 

I can't see a situation where you'll be able to buy extra generics without buying a whole ship conversion including all the named as well, the ration of stuff that's getting printed will still be stupidly weighted towards named pilots.

 

Now maybe 2.0 is designed so that people will really only be taking named pilots? I doubt it though, so at some point there's going to be a lot of wasted cardboard out there just so people can field all generics, and they won't be able to sell most of it as they need to keep the double sided ship token with the extra cop of the named pilot on. 

It's really pretty s***

 

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Someone posted on BGG that Alex Davy said generic TIE Defenders were around 72 points.  Which means you wouldn't be able to fly more than two in a 200-point squad, and so would only need two of them in the conversion kit.  So it's hard to tell what the conversion kits actually cover until we know the point values.

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1 hour ago, DailyRich said:

Someone posted on BGG that Alex Davy said generic TIE Defenders were around 72 points.  Which means you wouldn't be able to fly more than two in a 200-point squad, and so would only need two of them in the conversion kit.  So it's hard to tell what the conversion kits actually cover until we know the point values.

Not really.  So if we state that the TIE Defender and the E Wing are priced such that you can only fit 2 in any list... that doesn't change anything.  Up to this point, FFG has always provided us enough to fly anything we want.  So we should be able to fly 2 Knaves, 2 Rogue Squadron Aces, both named pilots, or a single named and either generic in a single list.  In order to do that, we need 2 copies of each generic pilot, and one Gavin and Corran (Knave, Knave, Rogue, Rogue, Gavin, Corran = 6 Pilot Cards).  Furthermore, in order to run any combination of two pilots, we need 3 ship tokens - Corran/Rogue, Gavin/Knave, Rogue/Knave.  

However, the conversion kit content according to every non-english FFG store website, shows that this will not be possible.  And from what we know of pilot cards for Rebels, we cannot have all generics.  It is likely that we're going to end up getting Knave, Rogue, Gavin, Corran pilot cards, and Corran/Rogue Gavin/Knave ship tokens.  In that case, you can't run Knave+Knave or Rogue+Rogue (due to lack of pilot card and ship card), and you can't run Corran+Rogue or Gavin+Knave (due to lack of ship card).  This is a huge issue imo.  It will be the first time in X Wing where you'll have all of the materials to run the list, but be unable due to FFG's packaging.  It's a huge spit to the face that could have been easily avoided by including 10 extra ship tokens and pilot cards.

And just saying "Buy a second kit" is a cop out answer.  While the cost is obviously a big deterrent, it wouldn't even fix everything.  While it *would* fix the E Wing issue since they're capped at 2 per list... It won't fix Z95s, where you will only be getting 2 of each generic in each upgrade kit, so you'd have to buy 4 conversion kits to fly a Z95 swarm, giving you 16 dials, but you only enough ship tokens to fly 8.

Edited by Khyros

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2 hours ago, Khyros said:

Not really.  So if we state that the TIE Defender and the E Wing are priced such that you can only fit 2 in any list... that doesn't change anything.  Up to this point, FFG has always provided us enough to fly anything we want.  So we should be able to fly 2 Knaves, 2 Rogue Squadron Aces, both named pilots, or a single named and either generic in a single list.  In order to do that, we need 2 copies of each generic pilot, and one Gavin and Corran (Knave, Knave, Rogue, Rogue, Gavin, Corran = 6 Pilot Cards).  Furthermore, in order to run any combination of two pilots, we need 3 ship tokens - Corran/Rogue, Gavin/Knave, Rogue/Knave.  

However, the conversion kit content according to every non-english FFG store website, shows that this will not be possible.  And from what we know of pilot cards for Rebels, we cannot have all generics.  It is likely that we're going to end up getting Knave, Rogue, Gavin, Corran pilot cards, and Corran/Rogue Gavin/Knave ship tokens.  In that case, you can't run Knave+Knave or Rogue+Rogue (due to lack of pilot card and ship card), and you can't run Corran+Rogue or Gavin+Knave (due to lack of ship card).  This is a huge issue imo.  It will be the first time in X Wing where you'll have all of the materials to run the list, but be unable due to FFG's packaging.  It's a huge spit to the face that could have been easily avoided by including 10 extra ship tokens and pilot cards.

And just saying "Buy a second kit" is a cop out answer.  While the cost is obviously a big deterrent, it wouldn't even fix everything.  While it *would* fix the E Wing issue since they're capped at 2 per list... It won't fix Z95s, where you will only be getting 2 of each generic in each upgrade kit, so you'd have to buy 4 conversion kits to fly a Z95 swarm, giving you 16 dials, but you only enough ship tokens to fly 8.

Personally, I need to see the answer to this and a few more, similar, questions before I buy any conversion kits.

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20 hours ago, Nspace said:

For all we know, the A-wing, TIE Fighter, Z-95 and Fang Fighter are the only ships that can be fielded in a swarm.

The issue affects way more ships that you realize. This issue is not trivial.

M3-A, Quadjumper, Kihraxz, TIE v1, TIE x1, TIE bomber, TIE Striker, TIE Interceptor, Gunboat

You will be able to field 5 or more in a 2e list for all of these.

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2 hours ago, Dengar5 said:

The issue affects way more ships that you realize. This issue is not trivial.

M3-A, Quadjumper, Kihraxz, TIE v1, TIE x1, TIE bomber, TIE Striker, TIE Interceptor, Gunboat

You will be able to field 5 or more in a 2e list for all of these.

Really? How do you know that? I haven't seen any point values for any of those ships, anywhere. I've not even seen any Quick Build cards that include those ships, so we don't even have that for an estimate.

What makes you think that you will be able to field 5 of any ship? And are you also 100% sure that there isn't an actual rule that limits the amount of any one ship to 4 or less? Or 3 or less? There is precedent for that sort of thing you know.

And that's part of my point: There is so much unknown about point costs and rules and upgrades and synergies and how everything works together, how can anyone say with any certainty that the generics that we assume we are getting won't be enough? And since there are so many unknowns and none of the numbers seem to match, how do we know that our assumptions are even close to correct?

Edited by Nspace
spelling

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On 6/3/2018 at 5:28 AM, Scum4Life said:

As long as their upfront about it, we all know what we are buying. But as it stands I feel like we might be being mislead, or at least allowed to misinterpret.

Misled? This community? As if that would happen! People here are very discerning, and always think things through before reacting. It's not like people are reaching for the pitchforks and torches based on rumours and dubious leaks or anything...

/sarcasm

Image result for angry mob  gif

 

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On 6/4/2018 at 11:38 AM, Nspace said:

That's good, 'cause you shouldn't be doing that anyway. Without knowing the point costs of the ships and upgrades or even what upgrades will be allowed on what ships, you don't have any idea of how many of what can you field in a normal game. While it might be unlikely, it's entirely possible that you won't be able to field more ships of a single type than the number that come in a core set + 1 conversion kit. For all we know, the A-wing, TIE Fighter, Z-95 and Fang Fighter are the only ships that can be fielded in a swarm. Seriously, there is still so much unknown about 2.0 that planning to buy dials for your entire collection is almost guaranteed to be a mistake.

Negative, Ghost Rider. Firstly, who cares what the standard points value is? People can play at any points value.

Secondly (barring odd circumstance) people buy ships because they want to fly them. No one buys a ship (except maybe a Starviper) and has no intention of ever using it. If someone bought a seventh X Wing, it's because they play the sorts of games where they plan to use seven X Wings. Having a dial/token for every ship is a necessity *IF* people wish to retain the freedom of list building they currently enjoy. 

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Ok, so this potential issue is a bit worrying to me and if true would be kind of crappy but I think I may have thought of a way that they may be planning to up the number of generics after the fact (correct me if I'm wrong on this, not sure if they've stated otherwise somewhere else, and in no way is this confirmed). I was thinking they might be planning to  release more generics for each ship in the wave 2 and onward 'new pilot packs' or whatever they're calling them, the update packs with the new pilots from the wave for the ships we already have from the conversion kits, they may throw in the generics from those packs to make up the numbers which,(if this is the case) means we would only be short on generics until those sets release which is a little better, let me know what you think of this idea.

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51 minutes ago, agenttherock said:

Ok, so this potential issue is a bit worrying to me and if true would be kind of crappy but I think I may have thought of a way that they may be planning to up the number of generics after the fact (correct me if I'm wrong on this, not sure if they've stated otherwise somewhere else, and in no way is this confirmed). I was thinking they might be planning to  release more generics for each ship in the wave 2 and onward 'new pilot packs' or whatever they're calling them, the update packs with the new pilots from the wave for the ships we already have from the conversion kits, they may throw in the generics from those packs to make up the numbers which,(if this is the case) means we would only be short on generics until those sets release which is a little better, let me know what you think of this idea.

The problem with that is we're forced to wait 2-6 months to fly the ships we already own in the configuration we want to fly them in and then have to spend more money on a ship we already own multiples of (which negates the whole concept of the conversion kits not forcing us to buy 2.0 ships). Or we're forced to buy a third conversion kit just to get the cards and bases, and have a bunch of extra useless dials we can't trade away because we need the corresponding bases that came with them. 

But as I think about it more now, this does answer the question that some people have raised of "how does FFG get people to buy Wave 2 ships if everything is already available from 1.0 and the conversion kits?" Screw us over in the conversion kits, just like they did with Integrated Astromech in the T-70 expansion, and then put extra copies in later expansions to get us to buy more like they did with Heroes of the Resistance having 1 more Integrated Astromech card to make up for the missing IA in the TFA Core set. 

Edited by Tvboy

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7 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

Negative, Ghost Rider. Firstly, who cares what the standard points value is? People can play at any points value.

Secondly (barring odd circumstance) people buy ships because they want to fly them. No one buys a ship (except maybe a Starviper) and has no intention of ever using it. If someone bought a seventh X Wing, it's because they play the sorts of games where they plan to use seven X Wings. Having a dial/token for every ship is a necessity *IF* people wish to retain the freedom of list building they currently enjoy. 

FFG care what the standard points value is since it's how they balance the game and, presumably, is one of the criteria used to determine what goes into the conversion kits. In the scenario where someone has 7 X-Wings I don't think there's any good solution for converting to 2nd edition so I'm not sure how that's relevant to the discussion.

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I'm still struggling to do the maths on this one. Are we at the moment thinking that you'll only be able to run 1 of each generic for all the ships?

10 cards short isn't every ship not having total coverage is it? 

Looking at the spreadsheet, it says 3 bases for 3 a-wings, but that wouldn't allow you to run 3 of the same generic would it? You'd need 4 bases to account for both combinations of generics? 

 

Also what about Falcon where there's just one generic. you'd need 3 bases for that to be able to run any combination of 2 named pilots. 

Same for the ARC.

Edited by Talonbane Cobra

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12 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

I wish I'd remembered to take a picture of the base cardboard from the rebel conversion kit on Sunday now (unless someone did and I missed it?).

I don't think I remember seeing any gaps on the generics half, but now I'm doubting myself...

Are you saying there was an entire generic side of the bases? If so that would make sense, Generic on the back of every named pilot is basically how you need to do it to allow different combinations of named pilots.

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6 minutes ago, Talonbane Cobra said:

Are you saying there was an entire generic side of the bases? If so that would make sense, Generic on the back of every named pilot is basically how you need to do it to allow different combinations of named pilots.

Yeah, from what I could tell - I only had a brief look through and some of the bases were punched as people put stuff together to play Alex. It looked like all named on one side, generics on the back as normal.

My memory is telling me that there were two of the higher-I generic E-Wings (I bought another one at the expo for cheap and thought I'd check), though I have to admit that I don't know how that would work when you have 2 named and 4 generic bases.

Edited by __underscore__

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It's not normal to have named on one side and generic on the other in all cases. Depends on number of ships etc. For the aces packs they have done the double generic base that can be either one, which then covers all combos, but that means we should be getting 3 ship bases for all the ships that have 2 dials covered.

Sounds like a real mess.

 

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13 hours ago, Tvboy said:

The problem with that is we're forced to wait 2-6 months to fly the ships we already own in the configuration we want to fly them in and then have to spend more money on a ship we already own multiples of (which negates the whole concept of the conversion kits not forcing us to buy 2.0 ships). Or we're forced to buy a third conversion kit just to get the cards and bases, and have a bunch of extra useless dials we can't trade away because we need the corresponding bases that came with them.

The waiting 2-6 months to fly ships we already bought and already bought a conversion kit for is really annoying I agree but I wasn't saying we'd have to buy the ships to get more generics, basically ffg said in the live conversion kit unboxing stream that the conversion kit came with the extra pilots from 2.0 wave 1 in a little separate pilot card and cardboard package within the conversion kit but that you would have to wait to buy similar 'pilot card upgrade card and cardboard upgrade kits' with each wave as the old ships are re-released so you will still have to wait 2-6 months but won't have to re-buy the ships. The wave 2-? mini-conversion kits will likely cost 10-20 dollars (I'm guessing, any more and it would be kind of ludicrous) which is still annoying to have to spend above and beyond the base conversion kit cost but not nearly as annoying as having to buy all the individual ship expansions again, especially since the price point on ships has gone up for 2.0. What I'm hoping/guessing is that the little wave 1 conversion kit within the main conversion kit has extra generics for the ships from wave 1 (X-wings and Y-Wings) since they'd have to put something on the backs of the cardboard base plates that the new pilots come in. If this is the case it would make sense that the wave 2-? conversion kits come with extra generics on the backs as well and if so that's a little better than having to re-buy the ships.

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7 hours ago, Talonbane Cobra said:

I'm still struggling to do the maths on this one. Are we at the moment thinking that you'll only be able to run 1 of each generic for all the ships?

10 cards short isn't every ship not having total coverage is it? 

Looking at the spreadsheet, it says 3 bases for 3 a-wings, but that wouldn't allow you to run 3 

Right now I think we’re looking at 2 of each generics for each small/medium ship and 1 generic for each large ship, excluding ships like the ARC-170 that don’t have any generic pilots (I think there’s 4?)

The math works out to 2 ship bases for every maneuver dial if every ship has 4 different pilots. 

Edited by Tvboy

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23 hours ago, Khyros said:

It will be the first time in X Wing where you'll have all of the materials to run the list, but be unable due to FFG's packaging. 

I see you never ran Triple Defenders, where the only Delta is on the flip side of Vessery. You needed two Imperial Vets to have all three /x7 titles. You had three ships, the cards for each, the upgrades for each, and the bases for each, but you had to buy a 4th defender in order to have a Vessery base face-up and Vessery base face-down.

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4 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

I see you never ran Triple Defenders, where the only Delta is on the flip side of Vessery. You needed two Imperial Vets to have all three /x7 titles. You had three ships, the cards for each, the upgrades for each, and the bases for each, but you had to buy a 4th defender in order to have a Vessery base face-up and Vessery base face-down.

That's true.  The omission of Delta Pilot and Alpha Squadron Pilot on the imperial aces releases were a big no-no in my opinion as well.  

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It's unreasonable to expect FFG to include enough components in a single conversion kit to accommodate EVERY player in the world. There are people who bought twenty X-Wings, after all.

However, a single conversion kit should contain enough components to field a standard list full of each ship type. So, four or five X-Wings, probably five A-Wings, etc. That's a minimum expectation for the limitations the designers have imposed on the "standard" format of their games. Loads of X-Wing players have enough ships to meet these minimum requirements. They drove X-Wing into the ground with their design decisions (and yes, the outdated limitations on the original design space) and they need to earn back our trust. Personally, I'm not 100% confidant saying that I don't see them doing it again in a few years with 2.0. power creep is real. FFG is a business and they need to find ways to get people to keep buying new stuff. 

I get the "secondary market" argument but that takes responsibility away from FFG to do the right thing. They can either build good will right at the start if these kits are fully satisfactory, or create ill will if they drop the ball on the starting line.

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